dervish = twf + power attack?

[fireinthedust]

So the old power attack vs. two weapon fighting debate is an important one: more attacks vs. more powerful attacks. At higher levels it's generally accepted that power attack is better (high initiative and killing your opponent in one shot).


My question to you beat-stick optimization buffs: if I had a duel-wielding fighter with weapon finesse and a really high dexterity, and power attack, would taking the Dervish prc (complete warrior) effectively make a useful character for power attack that could stand alongside ye power attacking greatsword fighter/barbarian?
The only difference I can see between the two builds (pure power attack vs. twf + power attack) is the damage bonus from high strength the barbarian gets, and the need to spend a feat (homebrew or otherwise) to use dexterity bonus for damage rather than strength bonus. At, say, 20th that's only one feat difference (and at that point one feat isn't that big, right?)

I'm running a game, and there's a Drizzt-esque character being built I'm hoping to run, and as the game's going to run to around 30th level, I want to make sure the character will be able to hold up at higher levels.

[ZeroNumerous]

Try this. Use Oversized TWF and TWF a pair of longswords(or similar one-handed weapons). Then you can power attack away. Power Attack does not function, however, with Light weapons.

[Clementx]

Technically a Dervish can't even PA with a scimitar, since he treats it as light for all purposes. Which does suck. Get your DM to ignore that point, and you are a bit better off, but the problem still remains- you need to hit more often to deal the same damage as a THF, so some of your attacks, all suffering the penalty, get sucked down by averages.

[dyslexicfaser]

A dervish Power Attacker can be made - and it's still a solid fighter - but TWF+PA is not only tricky to make work, but it eats up yet MORE feats that a dervish desperately needs for requirements and TWF tree.

[Armads]

Exotic Weapon Master 1 for Uncanny Blow may help, assuming your DM reads the second sentence as separate from the first (converting scimitars into 2H weapons for Power Attack). Use a gold scimitar or a great scimitar to get it as an exotic weapon.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Technically a Dervish can't even PA with a scimitar, since he treats it as light for all purposes. Which does suck. Get your DM to ignore that point, and you are a bit better off, but the problem still remains- you need to hit more often to deal the same damage as a THF, so some of your attacks, all suffering the penalty, get sucked down by averages.

What? Then you can't get 1.5x str damage if you use one scimitar two handed either, that's just ridiculous.

[Matthew]

What? Then you can't get 1.5x str damage if you use one scimitar two handed either, that's just ridiculous.

Ridiculous, but true.

[Draz74]

What? Then you can't get 1.5x str damage if you use one scimitar two handed either, that's just ridiculous.

Actually, I think the truth is even more ridiculous: the dervish can't even wield a scimitar two-handed like a non-druid can.

[Matthew]

Sure he can, he just derives no bonus from doing so. Characters can use Light Weapons Two Handed, they just derive no bonus from doing so.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

With using something like Oversized TWF, and TWF, and power attack on top of that, you better hope that you have like a 40 str, because you won't be able to hit, with all due respect The devish does get bonuses to attack and damage, but I find myself sacking 2 attack for Combat Expertise, and having the Deadly Defense feat take effect (+1d6 untyped damage). Also, with the Collision weapon enhancement, that should negate the need for PA.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Or, you can just ask a friendly DM to test a system with PA giving 1:1 ratio for light weapons, a 1.5:1 ratio for 1 handers, and a 2:1 ratio for 2 handers. Methinks it should work.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Actually, I think the truth is even more ridiculous: the dervish can't even wield a scimitar two-handed like a non-druid can.

Dragon mag #275 has an item called the Great Scimitar; it is a 2H scimitar, 2d6 damage, and threats on an 18. It is an Exotic weapon, so ye need the appropriate feat. Should overcome the desire to 2H a scimitar. Then again, so does a Falchion, and that is a Martial weapon

[Sepp]

Dragon mag #275 has an item called the Great Scimitar; it is a 2H scimitar, 2d6 damage, and threats on an 18. It is an Exotic weapon, so ye need the appropriate feat. Should overcome the desire to 2H a scimitar. Then again, so does a Falchion, and that is a Martial weapon

It's also in Sandstorm, as I recall.

[ocato]

You may like to sprinkle in a few levels of tempest to this build for increased accuracy.

Fighter 4/Lion Barbarian Variant (Cchamp) 1/Dervish 3/Tempest 5/Dervish 7

Feats
Human: power attack
L1: dodge (or expeditious dodge), (Fighter bonus) TWF
L2: (Fighter bonus) Weapon Focus
L3: Combat Expertise
L4: (fighter bonus) Mobility
L5: (Barbarian ability) Pounce
L6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
L7:
L8: (Dervish bonus feat) Spring Attack
L9: Oversized TWF

By L15 you're looking at no penalty to TWF, +5 unnamed bonus to AC, and a bunch of twf abilities like Dervish Dance, two weapon spring attack, etc etc.

That's a rough outline, but it seems like it might do something close to what you want.

[fireinthedust]

Thanks for the info, but I have a few questions:


1) (not a question) I'm the DM and this is my girlfriend's PC. She's a newbie player (of course!) playing a drow with high dexterity and two swords. They're called "drow short blades". She has weapon finesse and two weapon fighting as her feats. She's playing a fighter re-hash I made: ranger armor (light, leather) but more skills (sneaking around, etc.); high reflex rather than fort saves; and fighter bonus feats.

2) could I get some citations on the books used that arn't core or complete warrior?

3) I'm the DM, so I'm ignoring the power attack vs. light weapon issue on her primary hand (not her off hand). Since she'll have to qualify for the PrC first, after which she'll be free to get whatever feats she wants, would I be right in thinking she'll fe fine for now?

I don't think she'll need power attack to compete witht eh barbarian until higher levels.

also: the campaign is geared to get to 30th level max. That means 20th level to complete their core class, if they want; and at least (if not more) 10 levels of PrCs. She should be fine by 10th level, right?

[Matthew]

Power Attack is only affected by Weapon type, not by which Hand is used. In the above example, unless the Character is using Scimitars or another Light Weapon combination, they would be fully able to use Power Attack (given that they had it) with all attacks. Drow shortblades, though, do sound suspiciously like Light Weapons.

[Person_Man]

Dervish is a mediocre PrC with annoying pre-reqs. I suggest avoiding it.

Being a respectable TWF is pretty simple, actually. If you're a full BAB class, take Improved Unarmed Strike or Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. This allows you to apply Power Attack on every attack. Then boost your Power Attack damage, usually via Leap Attack + Pounce and/or Favored Power Attack. Then if you can find ways to add bonus damage/effects, usually via Sneak Attack, ability damage, fear, spells, psionics, maneuvers, or anything else you can dig up.