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2022-04-02, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Yes. Because it would be traditional. Because it's the way stories are supposed to go in his mind. Which has a lot to do with his expectations regarding what traditional heroes look like. Hence The Giant's commentary and Fyraltari's excellent post:
In my mind, Tarquin is probably not overtly racist, but he has internalized racism by the truckload.Last edited by hroşila; 2022-04-02 at 11:33 AM.
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2022-04-02, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
It's possible that "It's symbolic of" rules out the most literal interpretation - but I thought the literal interpretation made some sense.
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2022-04-02, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Fyral's post does nothing to suggest Tarquin himself is racist and suggests otherwise, frankly ("not as a diegetic motive for Tarquin, but on a symbolic level."). Your entire reasoning for Tarquin being racist is his race by your own admission regardless of how you dress it up, so I'm not interested in continuing. Have a nice day.
EDIT: I could see it as a symbolic suggestion in the text but I still think it's a bit of a stretch.Last edited by HalfTangible; 2022-04-02 at 11:47 AM.
Hate me if you want. But that's your issue to fix, not mine.
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2022-04-02, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-04-02 at 11:57 AM.
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2022-04-02, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
The "ambiently present" expression of it is more or less what I meant. Since that is the, you know, systemic kind.
However "odd" you might find it, "of color" is generally accepted. You're welcome to use other terms if you like, and I'll continue to use that one.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2022-04-02, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-04-02, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-04-02, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Anything with an Int over 2 is sentient.
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2022-04-02, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
You forgot "misogynistic".
I don't know how important the racist angle was to The Giant, but I can't quite shake the feeling that this is another case of the idea not being communicated as clearly as it could have been. Like the whole "Tarquin isn't actually the leader of the Vector Legion" thing.
Okay, I thought this was just a jab at foie gras, but that is even worse. Thanks for the info.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2022-04-02 at 12:35 PM.
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2022-04-02, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, some of the things he wants to communicate aren't as clear as he wanted sometimes, though with the goblin thing at least it was pretty blatant.
Okay, I thought this was just a jab at foie gras, but that is even worse.
Thanks for the info.
Edit: Also those are specifically Good-aligned magical beasts IIRC.Last edited by danielxcutter; 2022-04-02 at 12:42 PM.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2022-04-02, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
I just want to go on a little tangent about how ridiculous that entire situation was. There is literally ONE black person in the movie, for pretty much the ENTIRE movie he's in another location entirely, and then close to the very end he wakes up with a supernaturally driven urge to go to the location where everyone else is, which requires him to get on a plane because he's hundreds of miles away, and then when he arrives gets killed almost immediately.
They might as well have had him say "My Token Black Person Senses are tingling, they need someone unimportant to die" as he woke up. They might as well have had him introduce himself as Cannon Fodder, of the noble and distinct Fodder family.
It's so excessive that I have difficulty remembering the rest of the movie because every time I remember that this is a thing that happened I start cracking up. It's so horrible it's hilarious.
Yes, it's very blatant that the goblins are in the wrong about everything and deserve all the suffering that's coming to them, because Redcloak is a villain and a villain can never be correct about anything no matter how much it's backed up by other characters in the story and the writer himself. Anyone who thinks that maybe a villain could be a multi-dimensional character who understands the problem but is a villain because they're trying to address it in the wrong manner just doesn't understand that the world is black and white and there's no such thing as gray.
Sorry, I felt the urge.
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2022-04-02, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
I didn't "forget" anything; the topic at hand was Tarquin's racism, so that's what I talked about.
Of course, people who believe in rigid hierarchies where everyone has a place and needs to know where they belong and not try to rise above their station rarely if ever limit their bigotry to one specific field.
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2022-04-02, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Wait, hotel manager is dead? I thought he saved the woman and the kid
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2022-04-02, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-04-02, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
I was remembering it very badly then, 'cause I thought he was the manager.
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2022-04-02, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
This is actually the only kind of answer i got last time. Basically everything i got came down to:
"Tarquin is white and Roy is black, so of course it's about racism."
"Elan is white and Roy is black, so of course it's about racism."
Or even worse:
"Tarquin is white, so of course it's about racism."
Quite frankly, if the very only indication in a story that character is racist, or that the story is about racism, is that this character is white, then the only racism the story is actually about is not that of said character.
So, i'll keep assuming this is a misinterpretation and avoiding interpreting the Giant's commentary myself and go back to avoiding this whole conversation until further explanations by the Giant himself. And i believe we should all do the same for now.Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.
Resistance Data in MM, Volo's, MToF. -- -- Petrocorus's 3.5 Paladin Builds List. -- -- French vs. EnglishOriginally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
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2022-04-02, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Well in this case it's not clear whether the comic does go into intra humanic racism. There's nothing in the comic itself, and it seems people arguing about a hint by some ambiguous commentary (which I haven't read).
I agree that racism is about creating in in-groups and out-groups. The reason it makes sense to me that there'd be less (or no) racism if there were other species is that other species create more obvious out-groups, and all humans become an in-group. Of course we don't actually know, because there are no other species in the real world.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2022-04-02 at 06:14 PM.
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2022-04-02, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-04-02, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-04-02, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2022-04-02, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Psyren; 2022-04-02 at 06:20 PM.
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2022-04-02, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-04-02, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
So, uh... how about that Serini, huh? That crazy old halferling, I wonder what she'll say next.
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2022-04-02, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, I'm confused at the posts talking like the Giant's own commentary doesn't exist.
Like I said, I think Tarquin is less actively racist and more that his racism is a byproduct of his rigidly hierarchical worldview, but that doesn't mean it's not there, even if just implicitly or subconsciously.
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2022-04-02, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-04-02, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-04-02, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Well I think that lots of people don't have the commentary, and those that have seen it aren't posting what it actually says, but instead posting their interpretation of what it means. I take from this that the commentary is not explicit as to whether Tarquin is racist, and people's interpretation of it differs based on their outlook. Given how much people differ on interpreting what is in the comic in front of us, I can understand why they aren't keen to rely on any of the differing interpretations of text that can't see.
That makes sense to me, but differs from what Psyren had said it meant. I'll take it that the meaning is not universally agreed, and be careful using or understanding it around the edge cases.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2022-04-02 at 08:02 PM.
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2022-04-02, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Agreed.
Tarquin and Elan are in the Giant's text used as symbols:
Tarquin: How the Giant views potential views held by old fashioned people of a particular skin colour.
Elan: How the Giant views potential views that he regards as more correct that he would like to see amoungst people of a particular skin colour.
This does not say that either Elan or Tarquin are looking at things from a skin colour prespective - merely the symbols that they represent.
I think this is fairly egotistical.
The Giant is a good communicator - what he wants to communicate and what he communicates might line up a lot better then what people think he should want to communicate.
Unless my knowledge is sorely lacking (which might always be the case) the vast majority of people (of any skin colour) don't live in the USA let alone the two american continents.
Goblinoids cannot as far as we know interbreed - humans can with orcs and dragons, Hobgoblins and Bugbear and Goblins might be more similar to Dragons then the are to each other relating to family ties.
In universe Fenris did (panel 5).
In fairness Malack likely eats humans and if humans tasted good Tarquin likely would also - good thing humans taste awful (at least according to staving cats - if I remember correctly).
Malack and the rest of Tarquin's party were highlighted for a reason.
Assuming that racism is about treating people as worst then you for not being like you then Malack is a prime candidate - he thinks about things on a different timescale then Tarquin (Tarquin how to wrap up his legacy, Malack how to begin it), he eats differently (publicly vs privately), he has a completely different reproduction process etc - but their differences don't seperate them instead it is their similarities that bring them together.
The same to a lesser extend could be said about Laurin and Miron who while I accept that evil people are more tolerant and accepting of character flaws then good people - I don't get the impression that either would tolerate being treated as lesser for skin colour for any extended period of time let alone decades, and Tarquin's interactions with them seem to be friendly and pleasant rather then merely unpleasant business that is tolerated - Tarquin thinks of himself as the leader (and maybe he is) but it seems a leader of equals if that is the case - he doesn't command them and he knows it.
If the Giant wanted Tarquin to be a different character he could have wrote it - Tarquin (Lord of Tyrannia) with a host of mistreated minions, he didn't write that be instead choose to write him as he did - and their is nothing racist (that I am seeing) in that writing.
As such the idea that Tarquin is a racist is something I see no basis for in text nor in commentary.Last edited by dancrilis; 2022-04-02 at 08:27 PM.
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2022-04-02, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, it is almost as if context could indicate that it is highly likely we are talking about the United States, as caucasians make up less than 25% of the global population and yet we are talking about non-caucasians being minorities on an American website mostly populated by Americans. "American", in this sense, meaning "denizen of the United States", as that is the cultural norm word to use for Americans.
Please let me know if you feel you are missing such context in other discussions, and I will gladly help.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-04-02, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread
I am just not overly familar with the United States I was there decades ago for a few weeks when I was in single digit age.
I wouldn't be quite like this but I do understand it having worked with a number of 'americans':
Spoiler: Video
Edit:
And thanks, will try to remember the offer and use as needed.Last edited by dancrilis; 2022-04-02 at 09:09 PM.