OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

He tries to kill Roy (and Durkon and Belkar) because he wants Elan to be the main hero because that would be the best story in his mind

Yes. Because it would be traditional. Because it's the way stories are supposed to go in his mind. Which has a lot to do with his expectations regarding what traditional heroes look like. Hence The Giant's commentary and Fyraltari's excellent post:

I think the idea with Tarquin is that beyond his "I should be the center of attention" issue, his obsession with stories and desire for control make him believe that stories only have worth of they're done the right way (see his "because this is how these things are done" rant or his inability to accept that Elan could both be a main character and comic-relief) and, this "right way" is the good ol'way, of fantasy stories that don't really attempt to deconstruct themselves, were setting up archetypes and therefore not challenging them.

These old fashionned stories did often tend to be more-or-less conciously racist, because they were products of their times as all art is.

The Elan/Tarquin conflict is about genre codes and that one shouldn't just blindly repeat them like Tarquin does, but play with them, tweak and twist them, like Elan and The Giant do.

So when The Giant says that it's no-coincidence that Tarquin is an old white man losing his **** over a black man being more important than another white man to this story, I think he meant it, not as a diegetic motive for Tarquin, but on a symbolic level.

In my mind, Tarquin is probably not overtly racist, but he has internalized racism by the truckload.

[hamishspence]

It's possible that "It's symbolic of" rules out the most literal interpretation - but I thought the literal interpretation made some sense.

[HalfTangible]

Fyral's post does nothing to suggest Tarquin himself is racist and suggests otherwise, frankly ("not as a diegetic motive for Tarquin, but on a symbolic level."). Your entire reasoning for Tarquin being racist is his race by your own admission regardless of how you dress it up, so I'm not interested in continuing. Have a nice day.

EDIT: I could see it as a symbolic suggestion in the text but I still think it's a bit of a stretch.

[hamishspence]

In my mind, Tarquin is probably not overtly racist, but he has internalized racism by the truckload.

This is pretty close to what I was trying to say.

For that matter, I could see his willingness to serve up sapient magical animals at the banquet (pegasus, phoenix), as a "Sapient magical animals are lesser to him than humanoids" early hint.

[Psyren]

I don't think Tarquin is significantly motivated by racism, but it is sort of ambiently present in him. He's a rich old white narcissist who imagines himself the leader of his party and a central figure of this story, and-- this part is important, IMO-- he has a strong belief that everyone has a place and needs to know theirs. You can probably connect the dots on how that last point plays into racism.

The "ambiently present" expression of it is more or less what I meant. Since that is the, you know, systemic kind.

Is that right? I mean WOC would be an odd expression to use to describe ethnic minorities who are themselves white skinned. Or ethnic minorities in asian countries, where the majority is 'of colour'.

Doesn't it just mean non-white like Petrocorus said, which does encompass most (or at least the most visible) ethnic minorities in USA.

However "odd" you might find it, "of color" is generally accepted. You're welcome to use other terms if you like, and I'll continue to use that one.

[Fyraltari]

Fyraltari's excellent post:

Aww, thanks.

For that matter, I could see his willingness to serve up sapient magical animals at the banquet (pegasus, phoenix), as a "Sapient magical animals are lesser to him than humanoids" early hint.

Those are sapients!?

[hamishspence]

Those are sapients!?

The average pegasus is INT 10. The average phoenix is INT 18.

[danielxcutter]

Anything with an Int over 2 is sentient.

[Fyraltari]

I agree with this as well. I don't think Tarquin is significantly motivated by racism, but it is sort of ambiently present in him. He's a rich old white narcissist who imagines himself the leader of his party and a central figure of this story, and-- this part is important, IMO-- he has a strong belief that everyone has a place and needs to know theirs. You can probably connect the dots on how that last point plays into racism.

You forgot "misogynistic".
I don't know how important the racist angle was to The Giant, but I can't quite shake the feeling that this is another case of the idea not being communicated as clearly as it could have been. Like the whole "Tarquin isn't actually the leader of the Vector Legion" thing.

The average pegasus is INT 10. The average phoenix is INT 18.

Anything with an Int over 2 is sentient.

Okay, I thought this was just a jab at foie gras, but that is even worse. Thanks for the info.

[danielxcutter]

You forgot "misogynistic".
I don't know how important the racist angle was to The Giant, but I can't quite shake the feeling that this is another case of the idea not being communicated as clearly as it could have been. Like the whole "Tarquin isn't actually the leader of the Vector Legion" thing.

Yeah, some of the things he wants to communicate aren't as clear as he wanted sometimes, though with the goblin thing at least it was pretty blatant.

Okay, I thought this was just a jab at foie gras, but that is even worse.

To paraphrase SAO Abridged, take that and multiply it by cancer.

Thanks for the info.

Happy to help!

Edit: Also those are specifically Good-aligned magical beasts IIRC.

[Worldsong]

Like how you sometimes hear from people that, in the movie Shining*, the Overlook hotel being built on a Native American burial ground and the only black man in the movie also being the only character to get killed by the killer in the movie are commentaries about the United States, they don't mean that Jack Torrance is necessarily racist, they mean that Stanley Kubrick (may have) made those choices for this reason.

*A movie that may hold the record of most overanalysed piece of film ever.

I just want to go on a little tangent about how ridiculous that entire situation was. There is literally ONE black person in the movie, for pretty much the ENTIRE movie he's in another location entirely, and then close to the very end he wakes up with a supernaturally driven urge to go to the location where everyone else is, which requires him to get on a plane because he's hundreds of miles away, and then when he arrives gets killed almost immediately.

They might as well have had him say "My Token Black Person Senses are tingling, they need someone unimportant to die" as he woke up. They might as well have had him introduce himself as Cannon Fodder, of the noble and distinct Fodder family.

It's so excessive that I have difficulty remembering the rest of the movie because every time I remember that this is a thing that happened I start cracking up. It's so horrible it's hilarious.

Yeah, some of the things he wants to communicate aren't as clear as he wanted sometimes, though with the goblin thing at least it was pretty blatant.

Yes, it's very blatant that the goblins are in the wrong about everything and deserve all the suffering that's coming to them, because Redcloak is a villain and a villain can never be correct about anything no matter how much it's backed up by other characters in the story and the writer himself. Anyone who thinks that maybe a villain could be a multi-dimensional character who understands the problem but is a villain because they're trying to address it in the wrong manner just doesn't understand that the world is black and white and there's no such thing as gray.

Sorry, I felt the urge.

[Ruck]

You forgot "misogynistic".

I didn't "forget" anything; the topic at hand was Tarquin's racism, so that's what I talked about.

Of course, people who believe in rigid hierarchies where everyone has a place and needs to know where they belong and not try to rise above their station rarely if ever limit their bigotry to one specific field.

[Precure]

Wait, hotel manager is dead? I thought he saved the woman and the kid

[Fyraltari]

Wait, hotel manager is dead? I thought he saved the woman and the kid

Oh, no the hotel manager's fine.

Spoiler: The cook, though...

Show

[Precure]

I was remembering it very badly then, 'cause I thought he was the manager.

[Petrocorus]

There is nothing in the text to support this except that Roy is black and Elan is white? That's it? That's your entire reason?

This is actually the only kind of answer i got last time. Basically everything i got came down to:
"Tarquin is white and Roy is black, so of course it's about racism."
"Elan is white and Roy is black, so of course it's about racism."
Or even worse:
"Tarquin is white, so of course it's about racism."

Yes. Because it would be traditional. Because it's the way stories are supposed to go in his mind. Which has a lot to do with his expectations regarding what traditional heroes look like. Hence The Giant's commentary and Fyraltari's excellent post:

Quite frankly, if the very only indication in a story that character is racist, or that the story is about racism, is that this character is white, then the only racism the story is actually about is not that of said character.

So, i'll keep assuming this is a misinterpretation and avoiding interpreting the Giant's commentary myself and go back to avoiding this whole conversation until further explanations by the Giant himself. And i believe we should all do the same for now.

[Liquor Box]

That's also the case in Terry Pratchett's Discworld and that didn't stop him from having an entire book about humans being racist toward other humans.

Because racist people aren't prejudiced against people because they dislike specific shades of color, they're prejudiced against other people because they're part of a perceived out-group and they're using skin colour as a marker of that out-group. But the same person can hold prejudices against several different out-groups based on different criteria. For example, it's not uncommon for real-life white racist to hate both black people and white jews.

Well in this case it's not clear whether the comic does go into intra humanic racism. There's nothing in the comic itself, and it seems people arguing about a hint by some ambiguous commentary (which I haven't read).

I agree that racism is about creating in in-groups and out-groups. The reason it makes sense to me that there'd be less (or no) racism if there were other species is that other species create more obvious out-groups, and all humans become an in-group. Of course we don't actually know, because there are no other species in the real world.

[Psyren]

There is nothing in the text to support this except that Roy is black and Elan is white? That's it? That's your entire reason?

Word of god isn't "text" to you?

[Liquor Box]

However "odd" you might find it, "of color" is generally accepted. You're welcome to use other terms if you like, and I'll continue to use that one.

I was more questioning whether you had intended to say that PoC referred to white minorities (such as the Irish for example) in USA, rather than saying you were wrong.

[Peelee]

I was more questioning whether you had intended to say that PoC referred to white minorities (such as the Irish for example) in USA, rather than saying you were wrong.

If it were 1922 and not 2022, then "Irish white are a minority group" would be accurate. In modern times, they are treated exactly as all other white people in America.

[Psyren]

I was more questioning whether you had intended to say that PoC referred to white minorities (such as the Irish for example) in USA, rather than saying you were wrong.

I said what I intended to say - ethnic minorities. I'm not particularly interested in splitting hairs beyond that.

(Also, what Peelee said.)

[Liquor Box]

If it were 1922 and not 2022, then "Irish white are a minority group" would be accurate. In modern times, they are treated exactly as all other white people in America.

So by minority, you mean people subject to discrimination, rather than meaning people who are a smaller part of the wider group (not the majority)?

[Larsaan]

So, uh... how about that Serini, huh? That crazy old halferling, I wonder what she'll say next.

[Ruck]

Word of god isn't "text" to you?

Yeah, I'm confused at the posts talking like the Giant's own commentary doesn't exist.

Like I said, I think Tarquin is less actively racist and more that his racism is a byproduct of his rigidly hierarchical worldview, but that doesn't mean it's not there, even if just implicitly or subconsciously.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I'm confused at the posts talking like the Giant's own commentary doesn't exist.

Or admitting they haven't read it, yet are convinced it's saying something other than it's saying.

[Peelee]

So by minority, you mean people subject to discrimination, rather than meaning people who are a smaller part of the wider group (not the majority)?

Partly correct, but also, "of color" implicitly excludes white people regardless. So if there were, for example, a business that decided to hang a "NO IRISH NEED APPLY" sign, Irish still would not qualify as POCs.

[Liquor Box]

Yeah, I'm confused at the posts talking like the Giant's own commentary doesn't exist.

Like I said, I think Tarquin is less actively racist and more that his racism is a byproduct of his rigidly hierarchical worldview, but that doesn't mean it's not there, even if just implicitly or subconsciously.

Well I think that lots of people don't have the commentary, and those that have seen it aren't posting what it actually says, but instead posting their interpretation of what it means. I take from this that the commentary is not explicit as to whether Tarquin is racist, and people's interpretation of it differs based on their outlook. Given how much people differ on interpreting what is in the comic in front of us, I can understand why they aren't keen to rely on any of the differing interpretations of text that can't see.

Partly correct, but also, "of color" implicitly excludes white people regardless. So if there were, for example, a business that decided to hang a "NO IRISH NEED APPLY" sign, Irish still would not qualify as POCs.

That makes sense to me, but differs from what Psyren had said it meant. I'll take it that the meaning is not universally agreed, and be careful using or understanding it around the edge cases.

[dancrilis]

I'm not especially keen to defend Tarquin's honor, but I have read the commentary and my takeaway had been more that Tarquin was a fine symbolic stand-in for that kind of old-fashioned thinking rather than that he was racist, specifically. I think the wording was to the effect of "it's not a coincidence that he's an old white dude losing his marbles" at the black protagonist taking the spotlight, so I guess people could be reading that as "it's not a coincidence because he's racist". It didn't quite scan that way for me in context.

Ok, looking it up...

He goes on, but I feel averse to posting the entire page. It is really more about the importance of Elan willingly standing aside to let the other characters get their chance to shine, and how that sets a positive example for other straight white guys to follow, from the author who is also a member of that demographic.

The Giant doesn't say in so many words that Tarquin isn't racist either, but "he made it very clear that Tarquin was significantly motivated by racism" is not an assessment of the commentary that I would co-sign.

Agreed.

Tarquin and Elan are in the Giant's text used as symbols:
Tarquin: How the Giant views potential views held by old fashioned people of a particular skin colour.
Elan: How the Giant views potential views that he regards as more correct that he would like to see amoungst people of a particular skin colour.

This does not say that either Elan or Tarquin are looking at things from a skin colour prespective - merely the symbols that they represent.

Yeah, some of the things he wants to communicate aren't as clear as he wanted sometimes, though with the goblin thing at least it was pretty blatant.

I think this is fairly egotistical.

The Giant is a good communicator - what he wants to communicate and what he communicates might line up a lot better then what people think he should want to communicate.

If it were 1922 and not 2022, then "Irish white are a minority group" would be accurate. In modern times, they are treated exactly as all other white people in America.

Unless my knowledge is sorely lacking (which might always be the case) the vast majority of people (of any skin colour) don't live in the USA let alone the two american continents.

The way goblins and hobgoblins are sometimes prejudiced against each other, may qualify as being more like racism than speciesism, given how minimal the differences are. Redcloak even calls himself on it.

Goblinoids cannot as far as we know interbreed - humans can with orcs and dragons, Hobgoblins and Bugbear and Goblins might be more similar to Dragons then the are to each other relating to family ties.

In core D&D, maybe - where regular goblins are as short as halflings - but The Giant removed the height difference.

In universe Fenris did (panel 5).

Okay, I thought this was just a jab at foie gras, but that is even worse. Thanks for the info.

In fairness Malack likely eats humans and if humans tasted good Tarquin likely would also - good thing humans taste awful (at least according to staving cats - if I remember correctly).

Anyone pretending that race is about the literal colour of your skin (for example by pointing out that Malack [a lizard] was white and that Tarquin is actually pinkish) is either not going to engage in a good-faith debate

Malack and the rest of Tarquin's party were highlighted for a reason.

Assuming that racism is about treating people as worst then you for not being like you then Malack is a prime candidate - he thinks about things on a different timescale then Tarquin (Tarquin how to wrap up his legacy, Malack how to begin it), he eats differently (publicly vs privately), he has a completely different reproduction process etc - but their differences don't seperate them instead it is their similarities that bring them together.

The same to a lesser extend could be said about Laurin and Miron who while I accept that evil people are more tolerant and accepting of character flaws then good people - I don't get the impression that either would tolerate being treated as lesser for skin colour for any extended period of time let alone decades, and Tarquin's interactions with them seem to be friendly and pleasant rather then merely unpleasant business that is tolerated - Tarquin thinks of himself as the leader (and maybe he is) but it seems a leader of equals if that is the case - he doesn't command them and he knows it.
If the Giant wanted Tarquin to be a different character he could have wrote it - Tarquin (Lord of Tyrannia) with a host of mistreated minions, he didn't write that be instead choose to write him as he did - and their is nothing racist (that I am seeing) in that writing.

As such the idea that Tarquin is a racist is something I see no basis for in text nor in commentary.

[Peelee]

Unless my knowledge is sorely lacking (which might always be the case) the vast majority of people (of any skin colour) don't live in the USA let alone the two american continents.

Yes, it is almost as if context could indicate that it is highly likely we are talking about the United States, as caucasians make up less than 25% of the global population and yet we are talking about non-caucasians being minorities on an American website mostly populated by Americans. "American", in this sense, meaning "denizen of the United States", as that is the cultural norm word to use for Americans.

Please let me know if you feel you are missing such context in other discussions, and I will gladly help.

[dancrilis]

Yes, it is almost as if context could indicate that it is highly likely we are talking about the United States

I am just not overly familar with the United States I was there decades ago for a few weeks when I was in single digit age.

I wouldn't be quite like this but I do understand it having worked with a number of 'americans':

Spoiler: Video

Show

Edit:

Please let me know if you feel you are missing such context in other discussions, and I will gladly help.

And thanks, will try to remember the offer and use as needed.