OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

A.) Your FIL is Jack Horner?! I may not remember how many other real-world people were name-dropped in the book.
2.) Isn't neurology also a pretty hard science? Or is this a joke in that she deals in squishy things? I'm like 90% sure that's it but I'm no neurologist.

A. No, the late Thomas Loy. He was a pioneer in the field of genetic analysis of preserved tissue samples, such as traces of blood on prehistoric weapons. In Jurassic Park, that was extrapolated to the techniques used to resurrect the dinosaurs. I never met him. Though my wife and I have been friends for nearly three decades now, we didn't start our current relationship until some years after Loy's death in 2005.

2. She does behavioural neurology, the field of assessing the functioning of the nervous system (including the brain) based on observable behaviour. While she uses "hard" data such as MRI scans, her preliminary assessment is based on how someone moves, patterns of speech such as repetition of phrases or concepts, facial "droops", and the like. Her area of specialty is cognitive dysfunction, such as Alzheimer's.

But in general, yes, doctor-y stuff is about squishy things. Much more so than chemistry, at least.

Sure, but this isn't going to happen overnight is it? I wouldn't be surprised if evolution and natural selection solved that hurdle.

I would be surprised to learn about it, but that's because, you know... dead.

It's not impossible, but it would take a radical departure from all current and past life on Earth. Everything has been based on liquid water, so far. Even the most extreme thermophiles, which function above the "normal" boiling point of water, do so under high-pressure conditions that cause water to still be liquid.

[Mike Havran]

If the gods get antsy enough, that still might go out the window. Heck, all it might take is for a bodyguard to kill their cleric to nullify the associated vote, if they really need to resolve a stalemate in a hurry.

Won't instructing bodyguard (or, even more elegantly, giving his high priest a vision of commiting seppuku) count as a ''No backsies'' rule violation?

[Duncun]

If Xykon gets knocked out then Redcloak has a few options (some of them might be as follows):
3. Destroy the gate so allow the plans backup to kick in and give The Dark One a say in the next world.

2 or 3 seem a safer bet then 1, and with only one gate left 3 may be more likely then 2 - as things stand.

TDO does not have enough worshipers to survive till the next world.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

[Mike Havran]

TDO does not have enough worshipers to survive till the next world.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

But does he know it? He never experienced, um, ...worldlessness.

[Duncun]

But does he know it? He never experienced, um, ...worldlessness.

That's a good point. RC probably does not know that.

[dancrilis]

TDO does not have enough worshipers to survive till the next world.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html

'Might not' is not 'will not' and The Dark One might not know any of that as mentioned, and even if he does he doesn't communicate with Redcloak so Redcloak wouldn't know and when Redcloak was told he just assumed it was a convenient lie (panel 4+5).

[Psyren]

Won't instructing bodyguard (or, even more elegantly, giving his high priest a vision of commiting seppuku) count as a ''No backsies'' rule violation?

No idea. But Veldrina doesn't contradict Roy's claim that the gods might get antsy and deteriorate the situation, which sounds like the rules are not completely airtight (i.e. such deterioration is not impossible.)

[Baelzar]

I don't see it as much different from Dr. Ian Malcolm's position: (snip Malcom vs. Hammond)

Except the gods could make certain there is zero life left anywhere.

[hamishspence]

'Might not' is not 'will not'

Add in, further down the page "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap" and "I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it"

[Peelee]

Except the gods could make certain there is zero life left anywhere.

Sure, but she didn't know that yet and had no reason to suspect it.

[dancrilis]

Add in, further down the page "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap" and "I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it"

That doesn't change that 'might not' is not 'will not' - if we assume that Thor knows what he is talking and is honest then he knows that the Dark one might survive, this actually makes sense as Thor has never encountered a new pantheon outside of the intial four before - without sharing worship between members of a pantheon could the Dark One have more of a chance Thor (and us) doesn't know, did Thor have more of a eye on the previous gods (either directly or via allies) likely yes where none of his allies can monitor the Dark One's stores of power in this world (which the Dark One might be saving more then other new Gods) etc.

Ultimately assuming Thor is being honest he has reasons to believe that the Dark One will not make it but he is not certain.

[Psyren]

That's a good point. RC probably does not know that.

He does know that, or at least he's been very explicitly told. Believing it is a different matter of course, but that comes down to Redcloak's ego rather than ignorance.

That doesn't change that 'might not' is not 'will not' - if we assume that Thor knows what he is talking and is honest then he knows that the Dark one might survive, this actually makes sense as Thor has never encountered a new pantheon outside of the intial four before - without sharing worship between members of a pantheon could the Dark One have more of a chance Thor (and us) doesn't know, did Thor have more of a eye on the previous gods (either directly or via allies) likely yes where none of his allies can monitor the Dark One's stores of power in this world (which the Dark One might be saving more then other new Gods) etc.

Ultimately assuming Thor is being honest he has reasons to believe that the Dark One will not make it but he is not certain.

You do realize every single one of those other markers ("millions! Mebbe billions!") was without a new color? These are not odds you gamble with. Risking the Dark One's starvation is simply not a viable option, never mind the fact that doing so would mean (a) the genocide of everyone on the current planet and (b) the condemnation of all dwarves to eternal suffering.

[dancrilis]

You do realize every single one of those other markers ("millions! Mebbe billions!") was without a new color? These are not odds you gamble with. Risking the Dark One's starvation is simply not a viable option, never mind the fact that doing so would mean (a) the genocide of everyone on the current planet and (b) the condemnation of all dwarves to eternal suffering.

I would imagine that if the Gods decide to destroy the world they would do so at this point by breaking the gate with a bolt of lightning or whatever - they Snarl can get out and unmake everyone, the Dark One might starve, Hel might starve, the Dwarves don't suffer.
They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

[Psyren]

I would imagine that if the Gods decide to destroy the world they would do so at this point by breaking the gate with a bolt of lightning or whatever - they Snarl can get out and unmake everyone, the Dark One might starve, Hel might starve, the Dwarves don't suffer.

That would require all the rest of them to forfeit their followers' souls to the Snarl too. There's no way they all consider keeping the Dwarves out of Hel's hands enough reason to let the Snarl do the job, even if only Hel and TDO are at risk of starvation.

They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

The Good gods are in the minority. Even if all of them demanded that the rest stand down and let the Snarl eat the planet, the rest might simply overrule them so as to collect their "chips."

[hamishspence]

And there are a lot of 'demigods' that might be in danger of starvation too. Plus the elven gods may qualify as well.

[Mike Havran]

I would imagine that if the Gods decide to destroy the world they would do so at this point by breaking the gate with a bolt of lightning or whatever - they Snarl can get out and unmake everyone, the Dark One might starve, Hel might starve, the Dwarves don't suffer.
They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

You forgot to add to the calculus the value of throwing away the sole opportunity to tip the scales against their sole enemy (Snarl)

[hamishspence]

They would possible remove from the multiverse of two of the most powerful forces of Evil to ever exist for the low low cost of around a billionth of the souls that ever existed - that seems like solid calculus for the forces of Good to apply.

Not in the context of BOVD or BOED, where "destroying souls" is one of the vilest acts possible.

"Deliberately releasing a creature they know will destroy souls" is IMO equivalent to doing so themselves - no different from "setting loose a killer animal" or "breaking a vial full of killer germs".

[dancrilis]

That would require all the rest of them to forfeit their followers' souls to the Snarl too. There's no way they all consider keeping the Dwarves out of Hel's hands enough reason to let the Snarl do the job, even if only Hel and TDO are at risk of starvation.

The Snarl has destroyed worlds before rather then the Gods destroying them - we don't know how often that might have been delibrate, Nergal might be happy to see Hel gone so he has one less rival for how the undead operate - we just don't know the though patterns involved.

The Good gods are in the minority. Even if all of them demanded that the rest stand down and let the Snarl eat the planet, the rest might simply overrule them so as to collect their "chips."

Neutral and Evil gods might be happy to watch two trouble makers starve to death - neither is a big happy family after all, and losing some chips to remove another player might be worth doing.

And there are a lot of 'demigods' that might be in danger of starvation too. Plus the elven gods may qualify as well.

Many of whom are Hel's allies and one of whom keeps holding meetings up - some in the various pantheons might be happy to see the back of them, if they are at risk at all.

You forgot to add to the calculus the value of throwing away the sole opportunity to tip the scales against their sole enemy (Snarl)

Doesn't matter as this is about how the gods would in theory destroy the world (so likely after the talk it out plan has failed) - but even if it did many gods don't care (the west don't think the Dark One exists and many in the north don't like him seemingly).

Not in the context of BOVD or BOED, where "destroying souls" is one of the vilest acts possible.

"Deliberately releasing a creature they know will destroy souls" is IMO equivalent to doing so themselves - no different from "setting loose a killer animal" or "breaking a vial full of killer germs".

I do agree that the forces of Good might simply not be willing to do the calculus alright - although I think if Roy Greenhilt found an opportunity to push Xykon into the Snarl he would take it vilest act possible or not (in his fantasy he did seem to throw in the phylactery into a rift), so good people (assuming you accept that Roy is good) can make the hard choices at times.

[hamishspence]

(in his fantasy he did seem to throw in the phylactery into a rift)

Looked like regular lava to me:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

Presumably (since the soul isn't the phylactery itself - it just moves to the phylactery till the body begins to regenerate) the soul would go on to the Lower Planes once the phylactery's destroyed with no partially regenerated body for the soul to move back to.

[dancrilis]

Looked like regular lava to me:

It could be but that is not how I see it (it could be a lot of things including water I suppose), just with the entire purple affect I think it is supposed to be the Snarl, if it was meant to be red, orange, flaming etc then the other panels in that scene are a lot less purple.

[hamishspence]

I don't see purple - I see maroon sky, same shade as the evening sky over the desert at the end of Blood Runs in the Family, and bright yellow and red lava.

Haley's already seen the rift above Azure City, and it looked nothing like that. It was also vertical, not horizontal.

[elros]

I see what Rich is doing.. he's showing us what could have happened if Roy got to try and convince Redcloak.

We debating the issues for months on forums, so this may go a while.

[dancrilis]

I see maroon sky, same shade as the evening sky over the desert at the end of Blood Runs in the Family,

We agree on this.

and bright yellow and red lava.

I am not seeing this at all.
I see a white with light purple/pink lines in it, and progressively darker purplish colours coming out of it - then mountains in the background and the sky above, taking a look at the book I am still seeing that.

We might just see colours differently - as such I doubt either of us is going to convince the other, I think it is meant to be a rift and you don't.

[Peelee]

We debating the issues for months on forums, so this may go a while.

Eh, it's a lot more efficient when you can write the other side's part as well.

[hamishspence]

Compare panel 3 in the spiral, where "imaginary Roy drops the phylactery"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

to this panel of a Rift:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html


They are nothing alike.

Whereas lava:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0981.html

looks very like that Panel 3, allowing for the purple tint from Illusion Magic, and the improvement in artistic detail.

Redcloak's actual colour in normal light conditions:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html

compared to panel 2 of the Illusion strips, should show just how much the colour is distorted.

[dancrilis]

... looks very like that Panel 3, allowing for the purple tint from Illusion Magic, and the improvement in artistic detail.

I just don't see it - Haley has orange hair in that panel so if the Giant wanted to make it orange he could have make it orange, you might be right of course unless the Giant feels like clarifing then we will never know for sure.

My assumption is it is Dorukan's Gate and it is a hole in the ground as it was the bottom of a dungeon rather than at where the top of a castle used to be.

[hamishspence]

Redcloak's actual colour in normal light conditions:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html

compared to panel 2 of the Illusion strips, should show just how much the colour is distorted.

My assumption is it is Dorukan's Gate and it is a hole in the ground as it was the bottom of a dungeon rather than at where the top of a castle used to be.

Whyever would Roy fantasise about taking Xykon's phylactery thousands of miles away? Makes more sense to me that he's fantasising about taking the phylactery to the nearest volcano on the Western continent, instead.

[Peelee]

Compare panel 3 in the spiral, where "imaginary Roy drops the phylactery"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html

IMO that's about the clearest depiction of lava I could think of in that style with that color tint.

[hamishspence]

IMO that's about the clearest depiction of lava I could think of in that style with that color tint.

Yup - the pale stuff is almost exactly the same shade as Elan's hair in the same strip, and the dark stuff almost exactly the same shade as Haley's.

[Psyren]

The Snarl has destroyed worlds before rather then the Gods destroying them - we don't know how often that might have been delibrate, Nergal might be happy to see Hel gone so he has one less rival for how the undead operate - we just don't know the though patterns involved.
...
Neutral and Evil gods might be happy to watch two trouble makers starve to death - neither is a big happy family after all, and losing some chips to remove another player might be worth doing.

The one thing we know they all care about are souls. You'd have to prove that the majority value Odin leading the North Pantheon so highly that they will sacrifice an entire world's worth of theirs willingly just to keep Hel from supplanting him in the next world. Not even all the good Northern gods may want that.

And since there's no way in Hel (natch) that's happening, it's a moot point anyway.