Why not negotiate with Xykon?

[Emmit Svenson]

...the Order can start explaining what's at stake and that the gods will destroy the world if they think the Snarl might get loose....

So tell Xykon that he doesn't even need Redcloak, that he can hold the world hostage by threatening to destroy the last Gate?

Or that if he's going down, he can avenge himself by destroying the last gate as he goes? Remember, he thinks his phylactery is safely stashed on the astral plane, well away from the Snarl.

[Roland Itiative]

Xykon could take part in rebuilding the gates, he's a very strong magic user, and the Snarl is no respecter of alignments.

Rebuilding the Gates as they were before is just adding another temporary stopgap, it would add a few years to the world, but would in no way be a permanent solution. For that, they need Redcloak, and only Redcloak.

[halfeye]

Rebuilding the Gates as they were before is just adding another temporary stopgap, it would add a few years to the world, but would in no way be a permanent solution. For that, they need Redcloak, and only Redcloak.

I didn't say they don't need Redcloak, you said that there is nothing Xykon would be useful for, I am saying yes, they probably need Redcloak, but Xykon is probably the strongest arcane caster (outside the fiends) in the story, so if he decided to be helpful he could be used.

[Mike Havran]

... Xykon is probably the strongest arcane caster (outside the fiends) in the story, so if he decided to be helpful he could be used.

But ... you've met Xykon, right?

[halfeye]

But ... you've met Xykon, right?

Personally? Nope. I've seen him in the comic, and he's awful, I'm not saying it's likely he would want to help, I am saying that there's not nothing he could do, if he wanted to.

[Smoutwortel]

Sure Xykon is capable of being rational, but it isn't a certainty.

He's a very chaotic, random fellow who values his own amusement over achieving ends.

I find it highly suspect he would believe "the truth" even if explained to him, and plausible that, when confronted with his defeat, he'd be willing to take out the world with him by triggering the God's ultimatum. After all, his defeat almost certainly means his destruction and if he can't exist, no one else should either.

That leaves aside the point that he can transition to another plane at more or less will, and has set up a base of operations elsewhere. So there's really no reason to not frag redcloak, frag the order, frag the gate and teleport away to sit and fume on his astral throne while the Gods reset the world. Yes, we haven't verified whether or not the Gods resetting this ONE prime material plane results in a reset of the outer planes, but Rich skews fairly stringently to the traditional D&D planescape setup and in that setup, he'd be fine.

I find it implausible that, when negotiated with and informed of "the truth", his response would be to simply frag redcloak and fly off to go pursue other ends. But its possible, just not very plausible IMO. He doesn't take defeat well and takes embarrassment even less well.

All that being said, I personally am of the camp that Roy's need to confront and defeat Xykon is illogical and there are other, better, ways to deal with this issue.

To start with, team Evil simply does NOT have a WAY to find their way into the inner workings of the tomb. It takes a high level thief with find traps to figure it out. It's clear that trueseeing, detect magic, etc don't get you there. So, if the order hadn't shown up, team evil would've spent another few weeks working their way through the doors before realizing that something weird is going on (due to the monster's fake painted marks), then another few weeks REDOING the doors being more careful about which ones they've done. And then... who knows? Given history, Redcloak might come to the conclusion that the gate is somewhere else entirely and they'd have to wander off to do more investigation/research. Maybe they'd come back with a high level thief and figure out the trap. Maybe they'd just start meteor swarming their way through the walls. But it would take another few weeks at the least.

The tomb's defense WAS WORKING. Of course, now with the empirical evidence of the Order's "disappearance" when entering a tomb door, it makes it MORE likely that team evil figure it out. You know what MIGHT work even though trueseeing and detect magic don't? A second level clerical find traps spell. Something that redcloak, for some reason, hasn't tried yet (probably because he thinks it's useless and expects trueseeing to uncover any trap worth avoiding). Now perhaps he will.

For that several weeks, the Order could be figuring out how to rebuild the other gates. Or they could sneak in and steal Xykon's gem to free Lirian and Dorokun so THEY could remake a gate. Honestly, IMO, that's where their focus should be. How do we get that gem.

Regardless, it is what it is. I don't think trying to negotiate with Xykon gets them closer to safety.

Although I agree the order is a bunch of screw ups. Disappearing when running in the open field just means they have access to fast travel spells and mind blank like all high level adventurers.

[dancrilis]

The most likely problem with negotiating with Xykon for the Order is that Roy is fairly bigoted and his experience with the vampires is unlikely to have made him less so.

Here in panel 2 Roy gives a very basic opinion of Xykon based on no real knowledge of him (he waited patiently inside the Dorukan's dungeon, waited patiently in Azure City and is now patiently moving through Serini's dungeons) but worse in panel 5 (and 7) he lays out a lot of wrong regarding Xykon and none of it based on reason or data (he is in fact a human souled corpse animated by magic who doesn't really care about their destruction at all).

As long as Roy holds this to be the case instead of looking at Xykon as just like any other human with a template then any discussions are likely fruitless.

[KorvinStarmast]

The most likely problem with negotiating with Xykon for the Order is that Roy is fairly bigoted and his experience with the vampires is unlikely to have made him less so.

Face, meet palm. You might want to recalibrate your viewing lenses: this story is about the Order of the Stick, who have banded together to frustrate Xykon's plan of world domination by destroying him. See the strip where Roy tore up the contracts.

All that being said, I personally am of the camp that Roy's need to confront and defeat Xykon is illogical and there are other, better, ways to deal with this issue.

Not illogical. Remember what genre you are dealing with here: heroic fantasy at a high level within a D&D informed context. And self aware parody to allow for humor.
With that in mind, see above response to dancrilis.
While the blood oath issue was an initial motive, Roy in his discussions with his father, contentious ones, set aside that obligation for Roy to, of his own free will, decide that a world without Xykon is a better world for good and sufficient reasons, expressed on screen in a variety of strips. They were challenged as to why - why save the world? - by, among others, the Mechane's crew and stood by it. It's the whole point of the story.

For that several weeks, the Order could be figuring out how to rebuild the other gates.

Since there are no epic Divine and Arcane casters to hand to cooperatively do that, your assumption of there being a means to do that fails every test. And again, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not the story of Wizard McWizardson and Cleric McClericson who will save the world if only the Order asks them to.

[Wintermoot]

Not illogical. Remember what genre you are dealing with here: heroic fantasy at a high level within a D&D informed context. And self aware parody to allow for humor.

Just because something fits the nature of the narrative we are in doesn't make it "logical". There are a wealth of ways for the Order to advance their goals. Confronting the much more powerful Xykon in a direct confrontation is pretty low down the list on viable/worthwhile uses of their time and resources. So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. The fact that they are doing so because "its a story and that's what they do in stories" doesn't make it logical.

Since there are no epic Divine and Arcane casters to hand to cooperatively do that, your assumption of there being a means to do that fails every test. And again, this is the story of the Order of the Stick, not the story of Wizard McWizardson and Cleric McClericson who will save the world if only the Order asks them to.

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

[dmc91356]

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

I don't think they were necessarily epic, but the story does significantly suggest that a minimum of 9th level spells are needed to close rifts. Whether that is the same thing as a gate, well, who knows? If 9th level spells are needed, the OOTS is significantly not there yet unless you think that they have reached the level to cast such spells but have not done so, which seems a little wonky to me but YMMV.


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html (Third to last panel.)

[dancrilis]

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

Not quite true.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

Page 73 panel 3 - Redcloak indicates that if both he and Xykon were epic they could try to rebuild a gate and even then they would need to research how.

Redcloak could be wrong but there is no reason to suspect that he is.

[PandaKnight]

As long as Roy holds this to be the case instead of looking at Xykon as just like any other human with a template then any discussions are likely fruitless.

Tbh, as the unfortunate story of Tsukiho shows to us, Roy's take is way closer to Xykon's nature than yours.

[The Extinguisher]

Just because something fits the nature of the narrative we are in doesn't make it "logical". There are a wealth of ways for the Order to advance their goals. Confronting the much more powerful Xykon in a direct confrontation is pretty low down the list on viable/worthwhile uses of their time and resources. So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. The fact that they are doing so because "its a story and that's what they do in stories" doesn't make it logical.

Actually "it's a story and thats what they do in stories" is the only thing that is logical. The comic has shown time and time again that being Genre Savvy, being about to manipulate narrative conventions, and acting as if you are a character in a story (which, to be clear, they literally are), are the best ways to succeed in this world. Even if you wanna argue from a pure Watsonian perspective (ew, why would you?), proceeding as if they are Heroes is one of the most impactful thing they can do.

[Psyren]

Just because something fits the nature of the narrative we are in doesn't make it "logical". There are a wealth of ways for the Order to advance their goals. Confronting the much more powerful Xykon in a direct confrontation is pretty low down the list on viable/worthwhile uses of their time and resources. So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others. The fact that they are doing so because "its a story and that's what they do in stories" doesn't make it logical.

1) Except it does, for their world, where narrative tropes and rule of funny are essentially laws of physics.

2) I would definitely love to read "the list of more viable/worthwhile uses of their time" you're referring to. I could use a good laugh.

[Wintermoot]

1) Except it does, for their world, where narrative tropes and rule of funny are essentially laws of physics.

Quite a lot of the Order's success has come from subverting or going AGAINST those tropes rather than diving straight into them. Even Elan said that when he summoned Julio Scoundral in the fight with his Dad. But sure, whatever you say.

2) I would definitely love to read "the list of more viable/worthwhile uses of their time" you're referring to. I could use a good laugh.

More viable than trying to go toe to toe with the epic level lich?

• Drive a wedge between Xykon and Redcloak, forcing Redcloak to rethink his sunk cost fallacy
• Recruit or try to recruit the MitD
• Work to enhance the defenses of Kragor's tomb that A> have been working and B> team evil demonstrably have no way to detect
• Free Dorukan and Lillian from the gem (yes I know there is a strong possibility they don't know about that at this point)
• While negotiating with the Lich is probably a no go, slipping him some information might not be a bad idea. Though this is tough when you want redcloak alive.

Yes, most of those have their own issues, but so does "lets try to fight the epic lich" and most of this list allow a do-over if it goes south. The only reasonable reason you would pick "fight Xykon" over any of these would be "because it's an action story and that's what's supposed to happen!" so, yeah, if that's your horse go ahead and ride it. *shrug*

But sure, whatever you say, you are being needlessly hostile and abrasive to me and I don't know why. I do know that if I said to someone "your opinion is laughable", I'd be scrubbed and infracted. So it doesn't behoove me to treat you the same way you treat others. So you go be yourself and leave me out of it.

[Psyren]

Drive a wedge between Xykon and Redcloak, forcing Redcloak to rethink his sunk cost fallacy

You mean the thing Durkon literally tried?

Recruit or try to recruit the MitD

We have no evidence they know what it is, how to negotiate with it, and most pressingly, how to contact it without alerting the rest of Team Evil.

Work to enhance the defenses of Kragor's tomb that A> have been working and B> team evil demonstrably have no way to detect

Defenses they still know nothing about and would likely have undermined bumbling around? (Presumably Serini will help with that, but when they were planning the ambush they thought she was dead.)

Free Dorukan and Lillian from the gem (yes I know there is a strong possibility they don't know about that at this point)

Putting aside that you answered this one for me, getting it away from Xykon without encountering him seems implausible at best.

EDIT - RE: subversion:

Quite a lot of the Order's success has come from subverting or going AGAINST those tropes rather than diving straight into them. Even Elan said that when he summoned Julio Scoundral in the fight with his Dad. But sure, whatever you say.

The subversion generally happens after or while playing the trope straight. Yeah it's likely the MitD or Redcloak or the Snarl or something else will help them take care of Xykon rather than it being a straight up fight, but that doesn't mean that will happen if they sit on their hands without first trying the hero thing. (Nor will it happen if they try all the worse listed options first instead either.)

[dancrilis]

Tbh, as the unfortunate story of Tsukiho shows to us, Roy's take is way closer to Xykon's nature than yours.

Tsukiho fell into the same trap as Roy - she judged Xykon based on his creature type rather then as a person, had he been an untemplated human she would likely not have not made that mistake.

[JNAProductions]

Tsukiho fell into the same trap as Roy - she judged Xykon based on his creature type rather then as a person, had he been an untemplated human she would likely not have not made that mistake.

You do recall all the atrocities Xykon committed, yeah?

If he was an ordinary human, he’d be evil as all get out. Lichdom just let him do it longer.

[dancrilis]

If he was an ordinary human, he’d be evil as all get out.

That would be my point.

Xykon has arguably done no more evil then Tarquin or Nale - Roy doesn't deny their humanity or accuse them of being soulless or claim that they want nothing but destruction, he signals out the guy with a template for those kind of bigoted comments.

Now lets be clear being a bigot doesn't make Roy a bad guy (people can have there issues) but it is a blocker to negotiation.

[Precure]

Even if that's true, Roy still needs to kill Xykon as part of his promise to fulfilling his father's oath.

[KorvinStarmast]

So it is absolutely illogical for them to choose that path at the expense of all others.

No it isn't. You made an unsupported assertion, so I reject it. Props to The Extinguisher for spelling it out in a bit more detail.

Nothing in the story so far says that the casters were epic when they made the gate. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. to say that that "fails every test" is pretty obviously wrong and says more about your assumptions than mine.

Did you read SoD?

@Psyren: thanks for getting the laugh track started.

[hungrycrow]

That would be my point.

Xykon has arguably done no more evil then Tarquin or Nale - Roy doesn't deny their humanity or accuse them of being soulless or claim that they want nothing but destruction, he signals out the guy with a template for those kind of bigoted comments.

Now lets be clear being a bigot doesn't make Roy a bad guy (people can have there issues) but it is a blocker to negotiation.

Based on Roy's reaction to Durkula he can treat undead as people. He treats Xykon like a soulless monster bent on destruction because he's met Xykon and Xykon is a soulless monster bent on destruction.

[Fable Wright]

So... I think you're right.

I don't know how they get to the point of negotiating with Xykon, but it's been set up.

In 829, Tsukiko: "He gave it to me. Said he didn't understand how it worked and I should figure it out for him."

Moreover, that's a continuation of the plotline in 700. In the Team Evil flashbacks, it's been highlighted multiple times now that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak's ritual, and wants to know the details of it before he enters the final phase of the plan.

And then in 833, look at Xykon's face when Redcloak presents the ritual. Then his line: "If you had to smoke her, you had to smoke her. Hell knows I've had to off an uppity minion in my day."

If you've read Start of Darkness, you know how observant Xykon can be about the little stuff. Redcloak just dusted his minion to protect a secret.

I'm guessing, off the top of my head, there's an argument at the gate. An impassioned appeal is made to Redcloak, that tips off the plan to Xykon.

Endgame is Order + Redcloak vs Xykon the Lich and MitD. (Why MitD? Checkov's Gun from SoD.)

It's the option that no one thinks of, and it works.

: What, you think Evil's one big, happy family?

[brian 333]

I think Xykon would negotiate, but to what point?

To him it would be little more than entertainment, on the order of negotiating with the lobster in the tank at your favorite restaurant. What does the lobster really have that you would be willing to accept?

1: We won't destroy you.

Does Xykon really believe they can?

2: We'll let you rule (a part of) the world.

It's not theirs to offer and the people who live there might not agree to the deal.

3: Redcloak plans to betray you.

Well, duh. Thought of that one before Book 1.

4: The Ritual doesn't do what Redcloak says it does.

Fine. When it fails I'll take out his other eye. Kinda been the plan all along anyway. And how does this get me closer to World Domination?®

5: The Gods will destroy the world if it looks like you're going to win.

Hey, no sweat. I got a love shack on the highway between their palatial estates ready to go. I'm fine unless they destroy themselves too, and in that case, everyone else is boned too. Might as well give me what I want and save yourself a lot of boning.

For negotiation to be effective, there has to be an offer both parties can reasonably expect the other can deliver. The Order has (literally, not figuratively,) nothing that Xykon wants or needs. For that matter, what does Xykon have to offer that The Order would accept and believe Xykon would honor?

"I'll stop being an evil sociopath bent on subjugation of the world if you promise not to destroy me."

Really? Could Xykon even say that without laughing out loud?

Negotiation requires quid pro qou, and neither side has any quid to offer.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm guessing, off the top of my head, there's an argument at the gate. An impassioned appeal is made to Redcloak, that tips off the plan to Xykon.

Endgame is Order + Redcloak vs Xykon the Lich and MitD. (Why MitD? Checkov's Gun from SoD.)

It's the option that no one thinks of, and it works.

: What, you think Evil's one big, happy family?

Is that due to the thing between Xykon and MitD in SoD? That would need to be foreshadowed in the main strip, wouldn't it, via a flashback? While I think it's plausible, it goes against the grain of MitD's sabotage by paint, the relationship he formed with O-Chul, and his potential to surprise Xykon by not doing as Xykon expects.

Might as well give me what I want and save yourself a lot of boning.

I am reminded of the last few panels of this strip.

Negotiation requires quid pro quo, and neither side has any quid to offer.

Interestingly put, since 'quid' is English slang for money; were you going for the pun there?

Spoiler: FWIW

Show

Quid is a slang expression for the British pound sterling, or the British pound (GBP), which is the currency of the United Kingdom (U.K.). A quid equals 100 pence, and is believed to come from the Latin phrase “quid pro quo,” which translates into "something for something."

[Fable Wright]

Is that due to the thing between Xykon and MitD in SoD? That would need to be foreshadowed in the main strip, wouldn't it, via a flashback? While I think it's plausible, it goes against the grain of MitD's sabotage by paint, the relationship he formed with O-Chul, and his potential to surprise Xykon by not doing as Xykon expects.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that it's due to the thing between Xykon and MitD in SoD.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

It doesn't have to be a lot of flashback—context clues work. "Sometimes, you make sure you have a bit of insurance," as MitD repeats something about Redcloak betraying Xykon as he gets swirly eyes. Is MitD willingly on Xykon's side? No. Will MitD be fighting with Xykon anyways? Yes. Will he have a 'my god, what have I done moment' once the compulsion fades and turn against Xykon as he realizes in full that he was being used as a tool rather than a friend, the culmination of his arc with Mr. Stiffly? Yes.

More importantly, it means that the final confrontation of Redcloak + Order + Paladins isn't logically a one-sided stomp in favor of the good guys, which is necessary for dramatic tension. And even if MitD has a heel-face turn after swallowing Redcloak, everyone was going to do everything in their power to stop that in the first place anyways to protect the universe, so it ends with a wiped field and MitD personally standing against Xykon, the monster he's terrified of, which is good for his dramatic arc.

[Satohika]

Xykon is untrustworthy because he has very radical mood swings. Even before being a lich he was changing personality from a chill guy to hang around to someone who would kill you for something trivial. Probably because he didn't grow at all after discovering his powers, and still the same boy who killed animals for fun, just like how Redcloak is still the same angry teenager.

[JonahFalcon]

The Astral plane is immune to whatever hard reset the Gods have. Remember the monuments? Also, the Gods are safe from the Snarl in the Astral plane.

[Psyren]

The Astral plane is immune to whatever hard reset the Gods have. Remember the monuments? Also, the Gods are safe from the Snarl in the Astral plane.

The area of the Astral containing the monuments persists between worlds, but that doesn't mean they'd leave Xykon's doom fortress intact. As a corollary, Thor mentioned there are Githyanki running around the Astral too - and fat chance those persisted from the sentient movie snack world, so I don't think it's true to say the entire Astral Plane is safe from being wiped between worlds. Whatever was in the Astral from snack world is gone, because the gods scrubbed it too.

[halfeye]

The thing about Xykon not minding that much about Redcloak killing Tsukiko is that in SoD:

Spoiler: SoD

Show

He specifically tells Redcloak that Redcloak made the mistake of thinking he didn't know about his disloyalty, when actually he didn't care.

I'm pretty sure the same miscalculation applies to all of Redcloak's shenanigans, Xykon knows he'd doing it, he just doesn't care.

Also, it may be antique, but there is yet another meaning for "quid", it's a lump of chewing tobacco.