Why not negotiate with Xykon?

[JonahFalcon]

The area of the Astral containing the monuments persists between worlds, but that doesn't mean they'd leave Xykon's doom fortress intact. As a corollary, Thor mentioned there are Githyanki running around the Astral too - and fat chance those persisted from the sentient movie snack world, so I don't think it's true to say the entire Astral Plane is safe from being wiped between worlds. Whatever was in the Astral from snack world is gone, because the gods scrubbed it too.

That's assuming Xykon wouldn't return as whatever the new paradigm is, like a super-evil box of Milk Duds with amazing chocolate/nougat powers.

[Psyren]

That's assuming Xykon wouldn't return as whatever the new paradigm is, like a super-evil box of Milk Duds with amazing chocolate/nougat powers.

It wouldn't matter if he came back - we know that when they remake the world everyone starts at level one again. That was the whole point of making a bunch of monsters for their clerics to grind in the first place.

[JonahFalcon]

It wouldn't matter if he came back - we know that when they remake the world everyone starts at level one again. That was the whole point of making a bunch of monsters for their clerics to grind in the first place.

Um... that's because there are BILLIONS of new souls. They're not going to reset old ones. Those are needed to snack on the newer ones.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm pretty sure that if the Gods care enough to mindwipe every single outsider into forgetting about the previous worlds, that they will either destroy or do something about Xykon as well. Maybe they'd keep him around to be some big different dimensional evil or something, or maybe to try and play at making a new color by having Xykon ascend, it's more likely that the gods just snuff him out.

That being said, I'm pretty sure negotiating with Xykon would likely result in him killing Redcloak and going on a rampage and likely killing the Order as well. Maybe Xykon goes off to find some new evil scheme or maybe he goes to Gobbotopia to try and conquer the world the old fashioned way. Regardless, Xykon is still very evil and an active threat to the people of the world, even if the world itself might survive.

[brian 333]

In my opinion, Xykon would be mindwiped like any other outsider when the world gets reset. He has no special immunity that a solar does not, and being on the Astral Plane with a few billion Astral beings, he has no special ability to hide when the Great Astral Roundup occurs. He'll be roped and branded with the gith and all the rest.

Of course, he doesn"t know anything about that part of the deal, and will be certain he can weather the storm when it comes. He doesn't even realize that gods do not always survive the interregnum, and that he has no guarantee of survival until the next world.

I'm pretty sure negotiating with Xykon will produce no result at all. He already knows Redcloak wants to betray him, and he has no reason to believe his scheme won't work. They really have nothing to say that would mean anything to him.

[Peelee]

In my opinion, Xykon would be mindwiped like any other outsider when the world gets reset. He has no special immunity that a solar does not, and being on the Astral Plane with a few billion Astral beings, he has no special ability to hide when the Great Astral Roundup occurs.

He's not an outsider. Why would he not simply be destroyed by the gods?

[dancrilis]

He's not an outsider. Why would he not simply be destroyed by the gods?

Gods in dungeons and dragons I think are often only around level 40-60 and there is a theory that gods are 'more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level' - if that is a theory some of the gods hold then they might seek to keep Xykon around and letting him level up a bit might allow him to fight back and perhaps even kill it, a long shot to be sure but perhaps worth a try (in much the same way that Loki defended the Dark One as a plan to deal with the snarl).

[Fyraltari]

Gods in dungeons and dragons I think are often only around level 40-60 and there is a theory that gods are 'more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level' - if that is a theory some of the gods hold then they might seek to keep Xykon around and letting him level up a bit might allow him to fight back and perhaps even kill it, a long shot to be sure but perhaps worth a try (in much the same way that Loki defended the Dark One as a plan to deal with the snarl).

Thing is, once Xykon is powerful enough to overcome the Snarl, he'd also be powerful enough to overcome any god, and that sounds like a terrible idea.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

It doesn't have to be a lot of flashback—context clues work. "Sometimes, you make sure you have a bit of insurance," as MitD repeats something about Redcloak betraying Xykon as he gets swirly eyes. Is MitD willingly on Xykon's side? No. Will MitD be fighting with Xykon anyways? Yes. Will he have a 'my god, what have I done moment' once the compulsion fades and turn against Xykon as he realizes in full that he was being used as a tool rather than a friend, the culmination of his arc with Mr. Stiffly? Yes.

More importantly, it means that the final confrontation of Redcloak + Order + Paladins isn't logically a one-sided stomp in favor of the good guys, which is necessary for dramatic tension. And even if MitD has a heel-face turn after swallowing Redcloak, everyone was going to do everything in their power to stop that in the first place anyways to protect the universe, so it ends with a wiped field and MitD personally standing against Xykon, the monster he's terrified of, which is good for his dramatic arc.

I like your thought process there.

Xykon is untrustworthy because he has very radical mood swings. Even before being a lich he was changing personality from a chill guy to hang around to someone who would kill you for something trivial. Probably because he didn't grow at all after discovering his powers, and still the same boy who killed animals for fun, just like how Redcloak is still the same angry teenager.

Nice parallel.

Also, it may be antique, but there is yet another meaning for "quid", it's a lump of chewing tobacco.

In the US, the slang term for that which I came across a lot is "plug" (a plug of tobacco). Thanks for the slang update. (UK? Aussie? Irish? Other?)

[dancrilis]

Thing is, once Xykon is powerful enough to overcome the Snarl, he'd also be powerful enough to overcome any god, and that sounds like a terrible idea.

It might be more like rock paper scissors, just because gods might be more vulnerable to the Snarl then equally leveled mortals would not necessarily mean that those gods lose to those mortals.

[Fyraltari]

It might be more like rock paper scissors, just because gods might be more vulnerable to the Snarl then equally leveled mortals would not necessarily mean that those gods lose to those mortals.

It's strongly implied that this down to how many divine essences they have. 4-color snarl has an advantage over everybody but less so against three-color mortals than one-color gods.

[dancrilis]

It's strongly implied that this down to how many divine essences they have. 4-color snarl has an advantage over everybody but less so against three-color mortals than one-color gods.

Agreed - which is also why it probably wouldn't work, but still might be worth an attempt and as such a reason not to destroy Xykon merely because he happened to be off plane when the gates broke.

[Psyren]

Um... that's because there are BILLIONS of new souls. They're not going to reset old ones. Those are needed to snack on the newer ones.

What "old ones?"

Gods in dungeons and dragons I think are often only around level 40-60 and there is a theory that gods are 'more vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level' - if that is a theory some of the gods hold then they might seek to keep Xykon around and letting him level up a bit might allow him to fight back and perhaps even kill it, a long shot to be sure but perhaps worth a try (in much the same way that Loki defended the Dark One as a plan to deal with the snarl).

Xykon got curbstomped by Soon, I really don't think a god is going to break much of a sweat. Worse still, Xykon knows about the Rifts, and we know that at least is a no-no between worlds.

[dancrilis]

Xykon got curbstomped by Soon,

I look at it more as Xykon using suboptimal tactics of attacking without support, and suboptimal tactics due to not knowing how the incorporal rules worked, and seeming poor spell selection of not boxing people, and when he was caught unexpected - stood (flew) alone against the entire Sapphire Guard (past and present) in a likely consecrated room and while he didn't win he emerged without serious issue.

I really don't think a god is going to break much of a sweat.

Which would give them confidence to allow him to live.

Worse still, Xykon knows about the Rifts, and we know that at least is a no-no between worlds

The gods can't do anything about the Dark One and he might actually create new snarls if he attacks them if he starts to fade from existance - if a powerful mortal creature stands a better chance against the Snarl(s) then gods of equal level then having such a creature around may make since - and as a three colour creature Xykon might be very useful against potential two-colour snarls.

[Psyren]

I look at it more as Xykon using suboptimal tactics of attacking without support, and suboptimal tactics due to not knowing how the incorporal rules worked, and seeming poor spell selection of not boxing people, and when he was caught unexpected - stood (flew) alone against the entire Sapphire Guard (past and present) in a likely consecrated room and while he didn't win he emerged without serious issue.

"Xykon is barely competent against foes he can't ED-spam without Redcloak telling him how to fight" is not the ringing endorsement you think it is.

You're also relying on a ton of conjecture such as whether the throne room is consecrated, whether that even matters to a lich (it doesn't), whether Shojo's theory is even true (Thor hasn't confirmed it) etc.

Which would give them confidence to allow him to live.

But no reason to, which is the issue.

[dancrilis]

"Xykon is barely competent against foes he can't ED-spam without Redcloak telling him how to fight" is not the ringing endorsement you think it is.

It could be to the gods - that is the point, if the theory is true the gods could point Xykon at the Snarl and give him some potential tips and if he wins well and good and if he doesn't oh well no great loss.

You're also relying on a ton of conjecture such as whether the throne room is consecrated, whether that even matters to a lich (it doesn't)

Liches are undead creatures consecrated areas do impact them.

whether Shojo's theory is even true (Thor hasn't confirmed it) etc.

The gods might not know if it is true or not - and have little reason not to try it.

But no reason to, which is the issue.

To test a theory is a reason to let something continue to exist.

[Psyren]

Liches are undead creatures consecrated areas do impact them.

Undead get a whopping -1 penalty to attack rolls. Liches are spellcasters, and he's epic besides.

On top of which, you still have no idea whether the throne room was consecrated.

It could be to the gods - that is the point, if the theory is true the gods could point Xykon at the Snarl and give him some potential tips and if he wins well and good and if he doesn't oh well no great loss.
...
The gods might not know if it is true or not - and have little reason not to try it.
...
To test a theory is a reason to let something continue to exist.

Not when "let Xykon live" can be disagreeable enough to make a new Snarl on its own.

[brian 333]

He's not an outsider. Why would he not simply be destroyed by the gods?

Assuming a best case scenario for Xykon. Some evil god may want a minion, and a few hundred years of starvation in his fortress might give him reasons to accept such a position.

Maybe they will allow him to exist, or not.

Something I see repeated is the idea that gods are 40-60 level characters.

No.

The avatars of gods are 40-60 level characters. A deity, even a demigod, is virtually unassailable in its home plane, able to draw on the entire power of its plane. To defeat a deity (not just its physical manifestation,) requires the power of a god. And a god has an advantage over mortals: if you destroy a god's avatar you have an angry god stuck on its home plane for a century with the ability to kill mortals on the mortal plane via miracles. If a god's avatar, (or an angry god's spirit,) kills a very powerful mortal, the result is a very low level formerly mortal outsider which has virtually no ability to do anything except what is allowed by the deities that control its new home plane.

Xykon will never be powerful enough to kill a god unless he sheds his mortal existence and becomes immortal.

[Peelee]

Assuming a best case scenario for Xykon. Some evil god may want a minion, and a few hundred years of starvation in his fortress might give him reasons to accept such a position.

Maybe they will allow him to exist, or not.

Some evil god may want a minion. The majority of other gods want to do with the standard "wipe all outsiders, destroy all non-outsiders" method they have gone with for n billion times so far. Some evil god is outvoted.

Probably.

[awa]

xykon does not strike me as good minion material he seems to be the type to sabotage his master just out of pointless petty spite, heck I can't see him even in a position of equals for him its top dog or nothing.

[dancrilis]

Undead get a whopping -1 penalty to attack rolls. Liches are spellcasters, and he's epic besides.

It also impacts damage and save rolls.

On top of which, you still have no idea whether the throne room was consecrated.

I never said it was consecrated I said it was likely consecrated - which still seems likely to me, you are free to disagree.
Xykon did mention that the city was likely sanctified (and showed an aversion to such) but he didn't elaborate on what that meant.

Not when "let Xykon live" can be disagreeable enough to make a new Snarl on its own.

Hilgya and Kudzu are intending to escape to a different plane of existance - Xykon is no more special then they are, I could see the good gods not liking the implications of hunting down and killing people solely because they happened to be off world at the time of the Snarl's release, I could see the neutral gods not having strong feelings one way or another, and I could see the evil gods wanting those who survive the centuries to have a chance to spread evil on the new world - there is no reason to assume that the god rules have a ...

standard "wipe all outsiders, destroy all non-outsiders" method

... set up.

[hroþila]

Hilgya and Kudzu are not immortal, so yes, Xykon is more special than they are. The time between worlds can be arbitrarily long, it's quite possible that normal mortals aren't a concern but that something needs to be done about the odd immortal on the loose.

[brian 333]

Hilgya and Kudzu are not immortal, so yes, Xykon is more special than they are. The time between worlds can be arbitrarily long, it's quite possible that normal mortals aren't a concern but that something needs to be done about the odd immortal on the loose.

Xykon is not immortal. He is a mortal who is not yet dead. His soul is trapped and prevented from moving on to its afterlife, but destroy the 'soul hidey thing' and he sheds his mortal coil like anyone else.

With divine intervention he might be allowed to skip over the larva stage of demonic ascension, or he may even be preserved more or less as is, except changed to outsider like the soul-splice guys.

As to his ability to survive a world's destruction, his body and phylactery are part of the world, and contain useful threads. All that will be left is a soul, which will be an outsider type being. Whether some deity wants him for a servant or not, or whether he is immediately converted to God Chow™ is speculative. I can see ultra-genius intelligences believing they can be a step ahead of any plots Xykon 2.0 can conceive, but I don't see them letting him retain memories of the old world when they wipe the memories from all the rest of the outsiders.

[hroþila]

Xykon is very much immortal in the sense I'm using here - he doesn't have a limited, relatively short lifespan like Hilgya and Kudzu, and he won't ever die of natural causes. Hilgya and Kudzu will inevitably die at some point, probably before the construction of the new world even begins, so they're not a problem the gods would need to deal with. Xykon taking shelter in another plane to avoid the destruction of the world is thus not the same scenario as Hilgya and Kudzu doing the same.

[dancrilis]

Xykon is very much immortal in the sense I'm using here - he doesn't have a limited, relatively short lifespan like Hilgya and Kudzu, and he won't ever die of natural causes. Hilgya and Kudzu will inevitably die at some point, probably before the construction of the new world even begins, so they're not a problem the gods would need to deal with. Xykon taking shelter in another plane to avoid the destruction of the world is thus not the same scenario as Hilgya and Kudzu doing the same.

Either Hilgya or Kudzu could in theory go down the lich route also - is your thinking that the gods would jump in at that point?

Alternatively they are merely two people (three if we include Sigdi, more if Hilgya takes other nearby people with her) but plane shift exists for others also so there could actually be easily be a few hundred peoplewho escape - including older dragons who might have thousands of years left to live.

Communities might well form from survivors banding together - which would produce new children etc, etc, etc

If the gods are overly concerned about one lich surviving then it would make sense for them to be worried about anyone surviving - which gets back to whether the gods will sign off on genociding the old worlds survivors for the crime of surviving (while also killing a potential continual food supply while food sources are already low).

On consideration none of the gates failed due to snarl activity so it might be possible that the gates are more stable then the world, so in theory if Hilgya hit epic level and worked with Xykon then they could trap the released snarl behind a massive singular gate which might be more stable then any world the gods have made - and then the new world could be build on that.

[brian 333]

All of their bodies, including Xykon's and Kudzu's, are made of the same stuff as the world. When the world is unmade, they all die and become low-level outsiders with (usually) alignment-based home planes.

Exceptions may be possible, but I find it unlikely that the gods will leave extra yarn from this world lying around to run around in the next. Fruit Pie The Sorcerer may be such an exception, or it may simply be a creation by the Hostess Coven to market their supernaturally delicious fried fruit pies.

I find it most likely that the gods unravel everyone, regardless of their location. Their spirits then get shifted to their final reward, like it or not. In this case, both Xykon and Hilgya are deceiving themselves about their chances of surviving the end of the world.

edit: If The Snarl unmakes the world, it may not be able to reach the plane of Earth or the Astral Plane to unravel the beings there. If the gods do it, where could a being hide that they wouldn't know about?

[dancrilis]

All of their bodies, including Xykon's and Kudzu's, are made of the same stuff as the world. When the world is unmade, they all die and become low-level outsiders with (usually) alignment-based home planes.

That is an ok theory but there is little to nothing to support it - against it we have that the souls of those same beings would also be made of those strands and would be unmade with the world whether by the Snarl or the gods, and we know that is not the case.

I see no reason to think that Xykon or Kudzu are intrinsically linked to the world and that they would be destroyed along with it regardless of actual location.

[hroþila]

Either Hilgya or Kudzu could in theory go down the lich route also - is your thinking that the gods would jump in at that point?

Alternatively they are merely two people (three if we include Sigdi, more if Hilgya takes other nearby people with her) but plane shift exists for others also so there could actually be easily be a few hundred peoplewho escape - including older dragons who might have thousands of years left to live.

Communities might well form from survivors banding together - which would produce new children etc, etc, etc

If the gods are overly concerned about one lich surviving then it would make sense for them to be worried about anyone surviving - which gets back to whether the gods will sign off on genociding the old worlds survivors for the crime of surviving (while also killing a potential continual food supply while food sources are already low).

On consideration none of the gates failed due to snarl activity so it might be possible that the gates are more stable then the world, so in theory if Hilgya hit epic level and worked with Xykon then they could trap the released snarl behind a massive singular gate which might be more stable then any world the gods have made - and then the new world could be build on that.

I have no idea how the gods do it, but while normal mortals becoming a problem by establishing sustainable colonies is a possibility, it's not a certainty. There's a whole lot of if's involved in that scenario. Someone like Xykon left unattended is guaranteed to survive between worlds if they don't do something about it (unless unmaking the world also unmakes everyone made with the same threads, as brian mentioned; but I don't see why that would be the case). They're not equally likely scenarios. But sure, if it comes to it I could see the gods destroying any such colonies. Maybe they'll just wipe their minds or whatever, we really have no way to know, but the point stands - immortals are a problem in ways mortals are not.

[brian 333]

That is an ok theory but there is little to nothing to support it - against it we have that the souls of those same beings would also be made of those strands and would be unmade with the world whether by the Snarl or the gods, and we know that is not the case.

I see no reason to think that Xykon or Kudzu are intrinsically linked to the world and that they would be destroyed along with it regardless of actual location.

Thor said that outsiders survive and have to be mind-wiped between worlds, and that mortals die and the gods claim their portions of the souls. The character's location when the world is unmade would be irrelevant. The soul of that dead character would become an outsider.

It is not stated, but everything implies that souls are not made of the same stuff as reality. They are made of ideas, beliefs, and passions. Remember the view of the Astral Plane when Thor was giving Durkon and Minrah the tour?

Unless some God or The Snarl destroys or consumes the soul, it slowly merges into the fabric of the outer planes, like an idea that is absorbed into a person's basic assumptions. Remember when you first learned about 'hot'? You probably never think about it now. You may not remember the specific incident at all, but you never forget about 'hot'!

In my opinion, souls are the belief in self that forms when a mortal lives. God's are powered by belief. These are not the same as reality because ideas are not real. Good ideas frame reality accurately, and persist. 'Hot' is a good concept because reality reinforces it. But like your first experience with hot, the clear, sharp memory becomes subsumed by 'common sense' that incorporates hundreds of such ideas. As with souls, over time the memory fades away.

[hungrycrow]

Thor said that outsiders survive and have to be mind-wiped between worlds, and that mortals die and the gods claim their portions of the souls. The character's location when the world is unmade would be irrelevant. The soul of that dead character would become an outsider.

That the location is irrelevant isn't directly implied by that statement. He could be talking generally, because most mortals live on the world and would die if the ground they're standing on gets unmade.

Thor could have meant it the way you suggest, but Durkon heard all the things we did and still thinks Hilgya and Kudzu can escape.