Why not negotiate with Xykon?

[Precure]

Thor could have meant it the way you suggest, but Durkon heard all the things we did and still thinks Hilgya and Kudzu can escape.

Escape from the Snarl, not the death.

[hungrycrow]

Escape from the Snarl, not the death.

They don't specify. Hilgya says "the moment you and your friends screw it up" and Durkon says "at the first sign o' trouble". They could be talking about the Snarl or the Gods. In the current strip, Durkon seems to agree with Roy that "screwing up" means the gods destroy the world, so that's probably what he meant earlier.

[Precure]

They don't specify. Hilgya says "the moment you and your friends screw it up" and Durkon says "at the first sign o' trouble". They could be talking about the Snarl or the Gods. In the current strip, Durkon seems to agree with Roy that "screwing up" means the gods destroy the world, so that's probably what he meant earlier.

There is no "sign of trouble" in case of the gods' destroying the earth. It was supposed to be very quick turn of events.

[hungrycrow]

There is no "sign of trouble" in case of the gods' destroying the earth. It was supposed to be very quick turn of events.

The only thing we know about the destruction of the world is that 10 minutes is plenty of time to do it. We have no idea if the process is instant or if characters have time to react. The characters do think they'll be able to react though: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html Hilgya thinks the sign will be "if everything starts shaking". It'd only take seconds for Hilgya to grab Kudzu and cast plane shift.

[Tecoatl]

Actually, the Giant kind of explained why Xykon isn't the best character to negotiate with.

SOD spoilers.

Spoiler

Show

He's kind of a {scrubbed}.

And yes, that's a quote directly from Rich in the official canon book.

So, I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, but it seems like an obvious tactic to me.

We (and Roy) know Xykon is not interested in destroying the world. A lot of his best evil happened there. And we know that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak and hasn't for a very long time - for very good reason, since Redcloak has been deceiving him from the beginning. Xykon is savvy enough to know something is up, even if he doesn't know what.

So starting with a few Sending spells, the Order can start explaining what's at stake and that the gods will destroy the world if they think the Snarl might get loose. Why would Xykon not believe them? It's a pretty logical chain of causality, and Xykon is a practical guy. Redcloak is a zealot wracked by guilt and the need to prove that his past misdeeds were worth the sacrifice, but I can't think of anyone who would care less about sunken costs less than Xykon (except possibly Belkar).

And the Order can also explain that Xykon can't bolt to another plane if things go bad - Thor knows about his hidden fortress on the Astral Plane and now so does Durkon. Merely mentioning that they know of its existence would probably do a lot to shake Xykon up. The gods mindwipe all the Outsiders every time they create a new world, they're not going to let a loose cannon like an epic level lich who remembers the previous universe run around, are they?

Also, and perhaps most importantly, Xykon is exactly like Roy - he's a talky man. This is a lich who kept saying "Hey, let's chill out and talk about this" while getting hit in the face with a sword during the battle of Azure City. He also spent a lot of focus chatting with Varsuvius when they attacked with the power of the Soul Splice - a credible threat, but Xykon still was more interested in "Why are you doing this?" than the actual battle. Granted, both times Xykon was feeling that he was not actually threatened by his opponents, but when his phylactery was in danger he got deadly serious - and if the Order simply convinces him of the truth, I think he would get pretty darn serious again in the Order's favor. And I will say again, why would he not believe them? He is not an idealogue committed to a cause, he's just a self-aware villain who is following a scheme that fell in his lap because he has nothing better to do. I really think Xykon would still be just as happy doing some random evil stuff while waiting for Roy to level up enough to be a good challenge, he's like Elan that way.

Heck, Xykon would probably have more luck convincing Redcloak to help the gods than Durkon did. I don't think it's too much of a stretch: "I want to keep existing and not go to the Lower Planes for punishment, therefore the world has to keep existing. So if you don't lend your Dark One purple energy to create new Gates, I am going to level Gobbotopia to the last mewling goblin infant, then go kill every other goblin I can find." Redcloak might not believe Durkon's promises, but you know he'll believe Xykon's threats.

So, trying to defeat Xykon in battle seems like a massive longshot. Telling Xykon the truth and convincing him that your interests are aligned in this issue seems far more likely to succeed.

[JonahFalcon]

I think the IFCC would go to great lengths to prevent any sort of negotiation anyway.

On a side note, I wonder where Sabine is?

[Psyren]

On a side note, I wonder where Sabine is?

On her way back with an "appropriate vessel."

[JonahFalcon]

Well, 1256 answered this question: why the heck would the gods WANT to negotiate?

[PontificatusRex]

Well, 1256 answered this question: why the heck would the gods WANT to negotiate?

Well, not quite. It makes the case that it's credible that the gods would destroy the world to stop the Snarl from being controlled or escaping, it only glances over the fact that they have a reason to make a deal. Though I think only Loki, Thor, and Odin are actually in on that plan.

What I think is especially interesting is that the strip unequivocally answers the question about whether Roy would be willing to talk to Xykon, which a lot of commenters seemed to think was a no go.

[Lord Raziere]

What I think is especially interesting is that the strip unequivocally answers the question about whether Roy would be willing to talk to Xykon, which a lot of commenters seemed to think was a no go.

Yeah and they were right.

his answer isn't much different from "never" as Xykon is a cartoonishly evil lich. that hypothetical scenario is never happening.

[PontificatusRex]

Yeah and they were right.

his answer isn't much different from "never" as Xykon is a cartoonishly evil lich. that hypothetical scenario is never happening.

Well, once again I will point out that the single conversation between Roy and Xykon consisted of Xykon trying to negotiate with Roy. If Roy was willing, I would love to read round 2.

I think you are making my point with the word "cartooonish". Xykon is in it for the fun, and he understands his role as a big villain in a word of sword and sorcery heroics. He isn't devoted to the Plan for any reason other than what it happens to be what he's doing. The one thing Xykon takes seriously is self-preservation when he feels actually threatened, and right now the gods destroying the world is a far bigger threat to him than the Order is.

The gods created a world in which he can do whatever he wants with his immense power without threat of direct divine retribution of any kind. It's a pretty darn good status quo for him and he has absolutely no upside if the gods destroy the world, as opposed to the improved outcome Redcloak imagines. So the fact that Xykon is evil doesn't really matter into whether or not he would understand the threat he is bringing on himself.

And again - convincing Xykon hinges on convincing him that Redcloak has been lying to him, which he already strongly suspects. Xykon is so tired of Redcloak that he is more willing to listen to the MitD's opinion than RC's. I really don't see it as a hard sell.

[hungrycrow]

Well, once again I will point out that the single conversation between Roy and Xykon consisted of Xykon trying to negotiate with Roy. If Roy was willing, I would love to read round 2.

I think you are making my point with the word "cartooonish". Xykon is in it for the fun, and he understands his role as a big villain in a word of sword and sorcery heroics. He isn't devoted to the Plan for any reason other than what it happens to be what he's doing. The one thing Xykon takes seriously is self-preservation when he feels actually threatened, and right now the gods destroying the world is a far bigger threat to him than the Order is.

The gods created a world in which he can do whatever he wants with his immense power without threat of direct divine retribution of any kind. It's a pretty darn good status quo for him and he has absolutely no upside if the gods destroy the world, as opposed to the improved outcome Redcloak imagines. So the fact that Xykon is evil doesn't really matter into whether or not he would understand the threat he is bringing on himself.

And again - convincing Xykon hinges on convincing him that Redcloak has been lying to him, which he already strongly suspects. Xykon is so tired of Redcloak that he is more willing to listen to the MitD's opinion than RC's. I really don't see it as a hard sell.

Xykon walking away and doing whatever he wants with his immense power means he just goes off and murders innocents somewhere else. That might be an acceptable bargain to Serini in order to save the world, but Roy and the rest of the Order would never consider it.

[brian 333]

Xykon walking away and doing whatever he wants with his immense power means he just goes off and murders innocents somewhere else. That might be an acceptable bargain to Serini in order to save the world, but Roy and the rest of the Order would never consider it.

That's the attitude to which Serini is objecting. What happens when the enemy inevitably crosses it? What's your fallback plan? Have you ever considered that to win long term is better than to blow up the world and kill everyone today?

"I think you're more than capable of deciding that it would be better to blow up the world than let Xylon win,"

"My job is to protect the world, not the status quo,"

"And you can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing."

[PontificatusRex]

That's the attitude to which Serini is objecting. What happens when the enemy inevitably crosses it? What's your fallback plan? Have you ever considered that to win long term is better than to blow up the world and kill everyone today?

"I think you're more than capable of deciding that it would be better to blow up the world than let Xylon win,"

"My job is to protect the world, not the status quo,"

"And you can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing."

Right, and I think we've seen in the latest strip that Roy is not married to the "Stopping Xykon is the ultimate goal" mindset. I really do not think a deal to save the world requires the Order agreeing to refrain from trying to defeat Xykon, nor does it require Xykon to agree to stop being eeeeeevil.

Remember, Xykon likes the game. He knows heroes coming to try to stop his evil schemes is part of the game, and he encouraged Roy to take a break and come back when he had more of a chance of winning than he did during the battle for Azure City. So what's necessary is to get across the message that in this particular game the gods are about to flip the table and they all lose. All they have to do is move to a new map or board or whatever and it can all start up again without the apocalypse hanging over their heads.

[hungrycrow]

Right, and I think we've seen in the latest strip that Roy is not married to the "Stopping Xykon is the ultimate goal" mindset. I really do not think a deal to save the world requires the Order agreeing to refrain from trying to defeat Xykon, nor does it require Xykon to agree to stop being eeeeeevil.

Remember, Xykon likes the game. He knows heroes coming to try to stop his evil schemes is part of the game, and he encouraged Roy to take a break and come back when he had more of a chance of winning than he did during the battle for Azure City. So what's necessary is to get across the message that in this particular game the gods are about to flip the table and they all lose. All they have to do is move to a new map or board or whatever and it can all start up again without the apocalypse hanging over their heads.

Roy said he'd be open to it if Xykon weren't eeeeevil. That's been a dealbreaker every time villains have suggested truces.

If Roy and Xykon agreed to move to a new board and restart the game, that would mean Xykon restarting the game by killing people, and Roy would feel responsible for that.

[brian 333]

Whether something can be done about it is the question you ask after you have chosen to think through the consequences.

If there is a hard line, "This far and no farther," you only have one option. Indeed, as with Durkon's conundrum, you may not have a good choice, or it may take a while to think of one. But at least you're thinking.

It is far too easy to draw a line in the sand. Inevitably, the bad guys cross it. If your only option at that point is to end the game for everyone, whether they like it or not, then you haven't really won.

[PontificatusRex]

Roy said he'd be open to it if Xykon weren't eeeeevil. That's been a dealbreaker every time villains have suggested truces.

If Roy and Xykon agreed to move to a new board and restart the game, that would mean Xykon restarting the game by killing people, and Roy would feel responsible for that.

Um, Roy didn't say that at all. He said that it would take a lot to convince him that majority of people wouldn't be safer if Xykon was gone.

I think Roy is pragmatic and utilitarian enough to realize that "Xykon killing some people before he is stopped" is a more preferable outcome than "The gods kill all the people."

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think as of 1256, I am now in the camp where I think there will be some kind of negotiation with Xykon. Not in a "let's all live together in harmony and share power, and you get to rule 1/3rd of the planet" kind of sense; such a deal isn't really possible with Xykon, he's a being bent on conquest and villainy, and he wouldn't really honor any agreements, nor would he surrender. It's not in his character.

I think what can and at this point probably will happen is that he finds out that Redcloak's plan won't work and has a near certain result of Xykon being permanently destroyed by the Snarl or instantly killed by the gods and sent to the Big Fire Below. He will change plans, and his plan then would be to destroy Redcloak (A) because it gets revenge on him for being a disloyal minion (B) because it eliminates a dangerous threat to himself personally (C) because he's absolutely furious at Redcloak.

This probably will not result in Xykon going on a zany whirlwind adventure with The Order of The Stick and hanging out with Roy the way Elan and Thog did. That's not where I think this is headed even if the plot takes such a turn.

No, I am thinking the negotiation will be limited to what Xykon already tried to do with Roy just before he killed him: "Let's put off our climactic final battle until you go off on an adventure and get strongk first. Great heroes make great villains."

No, Xykon and the Order of the Stick both know each are the other's mortal enemies, and that there will never be a lasting peace between them because of what they both want to achieve.

But Xykon is capable of putting off resolving that conflict until it's more fun, or more challenging. Certainly he is capable of putting it off until his very existence is no longer being threatened, and destroying a greater threat to himself using literally every means at his disposal. Namely, letting the Order of the Stick defeat Redcloak, when he has a choice whether or not to affect the battle and help Redcloak win.

I think simply dividing their loyalties to one another, which are already extremely fragile, by using words and letting Xykon see reason that Redcloak is a danger to everyone including him, is just the nudge needed to tilt the balance of power.

Think about it. Redcloak may be powerful enough to take on the Order of the Stick with Xykon's help, maybe they are both even powerful enough to win outright. But if they were divided against each other at a crucial moment, that shift in the balance of power probably causes the Order to win the fight with Redcloak.

All Xykon has to do is not come to the aid of Redcloak, simply to stop attacking The Order. Xykon has been shown in canon like a dozen times allowing his minions to be murdered by the heroes. He doesn't care about them that much. Give him a reason to want them destroyed, and he will either help, or laugh while it happens.

So no, I don't see a zany wacky team up between Team Evil and Team Good, nor do I see peace with Xykon as either probable or even possible.

What I do see is diplomacy being a crucial weapon in dividing Xykon and Redcloak's interests away from each other, by splitting them along their biggest fault line, their goals.

Xykon wants to sacrifice literally everything else in order to survive and have fun being a badass villain to be remembered, or to live forever.
Redcloak wants to sacrifice literally everything, including himself, as long as the Dark One wins and has the power of the Snarl to back up his future negotiations with the other gods.

Both are willing to sacrifice the other in order to achieve their goals.

They are already completely disloyal to one another. Diplomacy can push them both over the edge and exploit that fault line.

Redcloak can be negotiated with while he's battling the Order of the Stick, and Xykon will probably be there, not giving his all as usual. Redcloak proves he's too fanatical and too ideologically driven and too dedicated to The Plan to give up on it simply by talking, and in the process of talking, the Order gives it away to Xykon that the gates don't work the way Redcloak says, and then Redcloak can tacitly or explicitly confirm it while arguing with The Order. Xykon can hear it all go down, and realize that this fight between The Order and Redcloak is not in his own best interest to help Redcloak win.

He can either turn on Redcloak and try to destroy him then and there, or escape to his fortress to await the final climactic battle that he envisions for himself and The Order.

This shift in the balance of power then causes Redcloak to lose the fight with the Order, and therefore, be forced to actually seriously accept a negotiated peace deal since he loses everything if he doesn't accept.

Then, he's already seen that the Order is not only strong enough to beat him when he is alone, but also that they will actually honor their offered agreement even when they've defeated him in battle, when they don't have to do so.

Then, two things will be apparent:

1) The peace deal that helps the goblinoid races and gets what The Dark One wants will actually be in serious jeopardy of vanishing if The Snarl ever escapes, or if Xykon is allowed to continue to threaten the world.

2) Xykon has already betrayed him, and the two of them are now enemies, working toward opposing goals. Redcloak with the protecting what peace has gained for the goblinoid people, and Xykon, who is nearly omnicidal for fun and has probably already obliterated thousands of goblins personally, and now has a grudge against his former troops and minions who now won't fight for him.

Obviously, Redcloak will be highly motivated to maintain the peace and protect the goblins, and that involves taking down a threat to them as well, Xykon.

Xykon has all the motivation in the world to prevent the Gods from sending him directly to the Big Fire Below, and all the motivation in the world to prevent his own being from being ripped apart by The Snarl.

If he's aware Redcloak succeeding means he gets destroyed by either the Gods or the Snarl, he might turn on him and stop him. Or, if the Order of the Stick can't beat Redcloak and Xykon and team evil all at the same time, but they can get close enough to the gate to threaten it, they could use the potential destruction of the gate as leverage to force Xykon to retreat. "Leave this place or we'll destroy this gate, and you along with it. If you value your existence, then go!" and he will give some lines about being well prepared for their eventual climactic battle, that he is looking forward to, something like that, and leave.

In either case, or some way I am not considering, the point is that by using negotiation/diplomacy and words alone, they could turn Redcloak and Xykon fully against one another. All it takes is a little information spilling into Xykon's mind that he actually believes, and then the character's natural motivations sort of necessitate turning on Redcloak. It's been far too well established that this is what Xykon would do in that situation, especially if his existence is that threatened.

So it won't be "they negotiated a peace deal with Xykon and everyone lived happily ever after" and it won't be "Roy and his big green flame sword beat Xykon and Redcloak into utter submission, the end."

No, it will be some comination of the two ideas. Sword where needed, words when also needed, and probably Redcloak won't be even capable of being negotiated with until he realizes that Xykon won't cooperate any more and he no longer has his Snarl threat to force everyone else to capitulate, and then they still capitulate anyway without that threat in existence, proving they are serious about wanting a just peace.

That will be all it takes to get through Redcloak's fanatical mind that he's served his purpose for the goblinoid people, and that further cooperation with Xykon threatens that, and that it is actually in his interest and the interest of all goblins to work with the Order of the Stick to stop Xykon.

And he has Xykon's phylactery, and can destroy it before they even go fight Xykon to put him down for good, which should prove to the Order of the Stick that unlike before, they can and should now trust Redcloak to keep his word. He is lawful evil, I think? He can always use a backup holy symbol, he doesn't strictly need Xykon's phylactery to be a powerful priest.

I have a lot of other canonical references backing up my assessment on this, mainly involving Xykon and Redcloak's characters as revealed through all the webcomics and Start of Darkness so far. There's a lot of supporting evidence which backs Xykon's willingness to put off fighting the Order right then and there, unwillingness to be destroyed for someone else's pet cause, willingness to both talk and listen while he is fighting, tendency to not use every means at his disposal to destroy someone immediately because he prefers to be amused and goes for style points, and likes fighting and likes bantering, it's less boring than anything else. It's only when he is absolutely furious that he stops going for style points and stops being talkative and goes straight for using his maximum level of power to immediately destroy something.

And we also have a lot of canonical references I can pull up demonstrating that Redcloak learned a lesson from Xykon back at the end of Start Of Darkness, about being willing to debase himself more in order to accomplish his goals. Xykon has known limits, he doesn't want to die, is willing to become a lich or a brain in a jar to not die, and would absolutely balk at being instantly sent to either the Big Fire Below or nonexistence, and wouldn't cooperate with any plan that leads to that. Even Redcloak knows that for sure, which is why he lied to him about the gates right from the beginning. That lie being exposed changes everything, and that lie is most likely to be exposed when Redcloak is arguing or discussing with The Order, either in battle or not, by overhearing it directly, or by scrying on the discussion.

Redcloak, on the other hand, began his story arc with limits, moral nonstarters, things he would never do. He was even a relatively ordinary moral being. There was nothing remotely evil about his character even when he first donned the cloak. It all began with good intentions and noble aspirations and defending himself. Over time, he became more and more convinced that you have to be willing to break a few eggs to make this particular omelet "for the greater good". He became willing to murder innocent bystanders, torture prisoners, and he stopped even feeling remorse when killing his opponents. He became more willing to send people to their deaths if it served his cause, more willing to use force and warfare to get what he wants, and even reject diplomacy because he's become more and more paranoid and disconnected from other people. There is no one in the world that he is even close to anymore, no one he trusts to any degree. He cannot make that leap to trusting Durkon or any negotiated settlement because his entire life, all he's ever been taught is that diplomacy and peace leads to his people being oppressed and his leader and his god stabbed in the back for their trouble, and oppression and genocide inflicted on all goblinoids, and the only way he has ever made any progress at all has been through taking what he feels he deserves, whether it be territory, concessions made by blackmail, information gained through torture, and victories gained by sacrificing goblin lives. He has been taught by experience that nothing works except total warfare and being willing to give up everything for the cause. He is now closer to his goal than ever, why would he stop now?

He needs to actually be defeated militarily, and have his plan of holding the world hostage actually fail in a permanent way before he would be willing to seriously consider another option. If that option is handed to him in his moment of defeat, where he still gets most of everything he wanted, and his alternative is to permanently lose any chance of success and dying in the process and the cloak itself being destroyed, he's going to take the sane option. But only when he is forced to take the sane option.

Diplomacy with him is possible, but not before conflict. He may honor the agreement when it is made, if you can make it.

With Xykon, it's the opposite. Diplomacy with him is possible, before, during, or even after conflict. He just won't honor any agreements for long. But you absolutely could get him to postpone a battle, he's even offered to do so before, with Roy, just because it would be more fun for him if that happened. He was willing to talk to Roy even when Roy was swinging a sword at his face repeatedly, because Xykon has no personal grudge against Roy, and no great need to eliminate any specific hero. He just likes to kill heroes in epic battles in general.

He's a villain because it is fun, NOT for a cause. Redcloak is a villain to make his cause come true. Xykon's cause is himself. Their alliance and therefore their greatest possible threat to the world and to the Order trying to stop them is based on a lie that can easily be exposed, and once exposed, fractures that alliance so badly it literally turns them against each other.

Redcloak won't allow his peaceful hard fought goblinoid equality and nationhood to be threatened by a mad lich bent on destroying goblins for betraying him.

Xykon won't allow Redcloak to actually threaten to destroy his own life or his existence.

They are already in mortal unavoidable conflict, Xykon just doesn't know it yet.

Diplomacy is not only possible, it might be the weapon that causes the most damage to team evil. A small bit of knowledge in Xykon's head would virtually end their combined threat then and there.

That is far, far more damaging than anything Roy's glowing plot sword can accomplish, as badass and cool as it is, and as much as I look forward to seeing it impaled through Xykon's face.

That's a very cool sword and I'll be kinda mad if I don't see it in action in the final battle, smashing Xykon to bits.

But I still think somehow that negotiation and even the act of trying to talk it out, even after the previous failure, will directly or indirectly bring down team evil. They're already in such a fragile alliance that, like madness or gravity, all it takes is a little push.

Not with a sword, but with a few words.

If this comes true, I'll be giddy, and if it does not, then Rich will have fooled me for the 50th time and it will be so excellently written that I will also be giddy and be unsure how things will actually turn out. Both are good.

Bottom line, it's never really gonna be Xykon making peace with everyone, no. And it's probably not going to be Roy wins because sword beats lich, the end.

It's going to be something in between, with a very satisfying twist that was well established in canon and foreshadowed ahead of time so it's not a deus ex machina. That much I'm pretty sure of. Rich has been very, very good about that the entire time he's had a plot to work with at all.

[brian 333]

Xykon: Wait, I've been wrong all along and that stuff that you told me with no supporting evidence which also conveniently accomplishes what you have been attempting while preventing me from getting what I want is true?

Wow, that's so much to think about. Let's see, hmm.

Meteor Swarm.



Why would any member of Team Evil listen to the Order any more than Redcloak did? They gain nothing. Xykon is already in the mindset of, "If I can't have it, burn it all down." Upon learning that the gods will destroy the world if he wins, his reaction will likely be to release The Snarl, zip over to his Astral Fortress of Solitude, and metaphorically eat popcorn as the gods scurry around trying to salvage what they can before The Snarl gets it. Hey, he's got time, and the next world will be brand new; he can get in on the ground floor.