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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Welcome to the 10th (and, possibly, the last) thread about rules in 3.5 and Pathfinder that don't work.

    Check the handbook to see if your dysfunction is already there, because we've covered many before.

    Previous threads:

    "Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
    "Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
    Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly
    Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure!
    Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
    Dysfunctional Rules VI: Magic Circle Against Errata
    Dysfunctional Rules VII: Mordenkainen's Dysfunction
    Dysfunctional Rules VIII: When General Trumps Specific
    Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List

    What this thread is for:

    • Rules that clearly do something that is pointless or self-abnegating (EG Focused Lexicon is a feat that provides nothing but a penalty, no-one can use Chain Power, Hindering Opportunist helps your enemy).
    • Rules that do something that is vastly contrary from anything that could possibly be the intended effect (Drown Healing, Greater Reversed Seek the Sky lasts forever, Reversed Mystic Rampart is meant to lower someone's saves but actually drops a tower on them).
    • Rules that cause an non-resolvable game state (Peerless Archers can stack infinite attacks of opportunity)
    • Rules that don't define something well enough to use it ("Distracted", "Minimum Caster Level", "Paladin spell", "Primary Ability Score", "Special Material", anything missing a range or other variables).
    • Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).
    • Two or more rules combine to cause an above problem (AC bonuses and bonus feats exist, but bonuses are only applicable to die rolls so no they don't).
    • As a general rule, if you need to write a house rule for it.


    What this thread is not for

    • Typos (Weapon deals 1d33 or 1d43 damage because 3 isn't superscript; "Share Lesser Form" mistyped as "Share Laser Form".)
    • Dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text (In combat, everyone is flat-footed until they act, so they must have been flat-footed whenever they weren't in combat, even though the text only specifies that they're flat-footed in combat. Someone who can't be flanked can't have a person on each side of them because if they did, they would be flanked.) Unless every possible reading of the text is dysfunctional no matter how you read it (even if it's dysfunctional in different ways).

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Book of Vile Darkness
    Faceless Hate: When a victim of this disease takes enough Strength or Constitution damage to reduce the ability score to 0, the infection disappears. The characte's ability scores are immediately restored to what they were before the onset of the disease, but he becomes a monster with no face. The character loses his ability to see (and scent, if he has that ability), but gains blindsight with a range of 60 feet. He loses the ability to speak, but gains the Silent Spell feat if a spellcaster. The victim's alignment changes to neutral evil, and he becomes intent on killing all those who were his friends and family. When the victim has hunted down everyone dear to him, he turns his ire against all other living things. These changes are permanent, and remove disease has no effect. A wish or miracle spell restores the character, but nothing else will. If the victim dies and a remove disease spell is then cast on the corpse, a resurrection or true resurrection spell restores the character to life and to his original form. Raise dead won't work.
    Firstly, I mused about how Cancer Mage - with their Disease Host class feature -
    a cancer mage suffers no ill effects of diseases, except for purely cosmetic ones such as boils, pockmarks, watery eyes, blackened skin, hair loss, foul smell, and so on
    - would "suffers no ill effects" from the loss of their face, and thus - would be able to see without eyes, smell without a nose, drink potions without a mouth...
    But then it dawned to me:
    -No mouth!
    -No nose!!!
    How the heck they are supposed to eat, drink, or breath?!!
    Thus, unless they either have Iridescent Spindle, or specific anatomy (gills or blowhole) - they should be dead in a couple of hours top (excluding possible excessive Con optimization, persisted Deep Breath or Veil of Undeath)
    Those who have some of aforementioned, would still perish in a few days unless they have access to ring of sustenance, psionic sustenance, Elans' Repletion, or Elemental type
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2022-07-13 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Here's one that I think many of us know, but hasn't been brought up in one of these threads to my knowledge: Spellblades.

    Spellblades have a 4-sentence description and still manage to include text that can be read as contradicting itself. (I think designer intent is clear but I've been in this argument plenty of times.) To quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spellblade
    The wielder of a spellblade weapon is immune to a single spell chosen at the time the weapon is created. [...] When the wielder is next subjected to the chosen spell, the weapon absorbs it.
    The issue here, of course, being the word "next," which makes it sound like the spellblade only works once. I don't read it like that, and if you assume that's the case it leads to some weirdness on its own, like an "expired" spellblade still technically being worth 6000 extra GP.

    Whereas my assumed reading, where it works every time? That leads to even sillier consequences. So even after you decide which part of the ability description is wrong, you're still making houserules.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Not sure if this has been mentioned in one of these threads before, but the -2 sword being awesome will always be a favorite of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    After one week in a character’s possession, the sword always forces that character to employ it rather than another weapon. The sword’s owner automatically draws it and fights with it even when she meant to draw or ready some other weapon. The sword can be gotten rid of only by means of limited wish, wish, or miracle.
    So we have a weapon that automatically teleports to your hand from other planes of existence and can survive being used against an Umbral Blot. Even Disjunction can’t get rid of it because of the specifics of the weapon. Getting it Sundered would be getting rid of it, disintegration would be getting rid of it, loosing it on another plane of existence would be getting rid of it. And because it forces you to use it then it basically has to just teleport to your hand when you draw a weapon. Sure you get -2 to attack rolls but that’s manageable
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Cheapest iaijutsu focus full attack! Quiver with one arrow and -2 sword. )
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    Cheapest iaijutsu focus full attack! Quiver with one arrow and -2 sword. )
    That… wow how have I never though of that.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Oh and on the topic of cursed items, a cursed wand of bestow curse that reverses a the effect of the spell is probably broken for giving a untyped +6 to ability scores and +4 to attack rolls
    Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-12 at 04:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    Oh and on the topic of cursed items, a cursed wand of bestow curse that reverses a the effect of the spell is probably broken for giving a untyped +6 to ability scores and +4 to attack rolls
    I think this falls under the category of "dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text".
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    I think this falls under the category of "dysfunctions that only arise because of a specific reading of the text".
    That is fair. Though the reverse effect cursed item property can lead to a lot of stupidity with wands. Though most of it comes into the realm of theoretical optimization since we don’t have concrete rules for what most of them would do.

    A friend of mine also used cursed item crafting rules to make a bunch of ammo with the curse effect to Polymorph you with a instantaneous duration and essentially rouletted roll his body until he got something interesting. The guy made a spreadsheet of every published monster and used that to math out how long it would take statistically to roll a dragon. I’m sure there’s more nonsense with cursed item rules that can make them unintentionally awesome but the -2 sword is still my favorite just because optimizing away the -2 penalty just makes it an awesome sword and probably best candidate for a item familiar.
    Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-12 at 05:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    With Berserker Strength and Ettercap Berserker, whenever Brianna the Barbarian is in a particular range of hp, she ends up in an infinite rage/unrage loop-- low HP triggers Berserker Strength, which grants +6 con due to Ettercap Berserker, raising her HP high enough to deactivate Berserker Strength, causing her to lose the +6 con and fall below the threshold for Berserker Strength, causing Berserker Strength to activate, and so on and so on.

    Because Berserker Strength is instantaneous, Brianna is constantly in a paradoxical cycle of rage.

    Unfortunately, all the fun things that trigger when a Barbarian enters rage are Pathfinder material, not 3.5 material (AFAIK).

    Also, for Cursed Sword shenanigans, I recommend using a shuriken-- it's its own ammunition, and unambiguously a "weapon".
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by MornShine View Post
    With Berserker Strength and Ettercap Berserker, whenever Brianna the Barbarian is in a particular range of hp, she ends up in an infinite rage/unrage loop-- low HP triggers Berserker Strength, which grants +6 con due to Ettercap Berserker, raising her HP high enough to deactivate Berserker Strength, causing her to lose the +6 con and fall below the threshold for Berserker Strength, causing Berserker Strength to activate, and so on and so on.

    Because Berserker Strength is instantaneous, Brianna is constantly in a paradoxical cycle of rage.

    Unfortunately, all the fun things that trigger when a Barbarian enters rage are Pathfinder material, not 3.5 material (AFAIK).

    Also, for Cursed Sword shenanigans, I recommend using a shuriken-- it's its own ammunition, and unambiguously a "weapon".
    I love infinite loops like this. I vaguely remember someone using a rage related item or feat to generate extra HP (not just con related hp gain) when they use it or something but I can’t remember.

    May I ask why you would use a Shuriken though? I suppose it lets you skip the quick draw feat tax so that’s a plus. Actually now that I think of it it’s only 1 damage less than a dagger so that’s pretty good, though i’m not sure you could apply Iaijutsu focus too it since it lacks the melee property. I kinda want to make a build for this now

    Edit: I realized now that you meant pulling out shuriken as a way to draw the sword, i’m stupid
    Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-13 at 09:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Something I was surprised not to see on the handbook. Players guide to Fearune lets you take regional feats you would otherwise not qualify for if you take 2 ranks in Knowledge Local at level 1. This lets you, among other things, take Jotunbrud on a non-human.

    This does a lot of silly things but my favorites are letting you be a Kobold that counts as 3 different size categories when it would be beneficial, allowing you to be a small tiny at large, and letting you grapple a Goliath. And my favorite is that it arguably lets a small or smaller creature use swallow whole on a creature that’s a larger size category than it.

    Oh, and if Dragon Mag is allowed then Eagle Stones are basically potions of true resurrection with half the cost.
    Last edited by Jervis; 2022-04-13 at 10:04 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    Something I was surprised not to see on the handbook. Players guide to Fearune lets you take regional feats you would otherwise not qualify for if you take 2 ranks in Knowledge Local at level 1. This lets you, among other things, take Jotunbrud on a non-human.
    That's incorrect: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting allowed it; no such permission in the Player's Guide to Faerûn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    This does a lot of silly things but my favorites are letting you be a Kobold that counts as 3 different size categories when it would be beneficial, allowing you to be a small tiny at large, and letting you grapple a Goliath.
    It's arguable: according to the Anthrowhale,
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Powerful build applies for grapple checks (giving a +4 bonus) but not for qualification to grapple (which is not an opposed check).
    Obviously, the same thing could be said about the Jotunbrud feat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    And my favorite is that it arguably lets a small or smaller creature use swallow whole on a creature that’s a larger size category than it.
    That's questionable - not just because of Grapple size limitations, but because you don't lose your feat-granted benefits while being magically reduced in size - would it be RAW for creature under the Minute Form effect to swallow something Tiny-, Small-, or even Medium-sized?
    The similar, but closer to RAW case is - some monsters have Swallow Whole which lists exact sizes which it can swallow - such as Legendary Shark:
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual II
    A legendary shark can swallow a Large or smaller creature

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    That's incorrect: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting allowed it; no such permission in the Player's Guide to Faerûn...


    It's arguable: according to the Anthrowhale,

    Obviously, the same thing could be said about the Jotunbrud feat...


    That's questionable - not just because of Grapple size limitations, but because you don't lose your feat-granted benefits while being magically reduced in size - would it be RAW for creature under the Minute Form effect to swallow something Tiny-, Small-, or even Medium-sized?
    The similar, but closer to RAW case is - some monsters have Swallow Whole which lists exact sizes which it can swallow - such as Legendary Shark:
    Ah right, I mixed my Fearun books up. As for grappling itself, I’ve seen it argued both ways. One where you automatically fail the check if the size categories don’t mesh up and one where you can’t make the check at all if the sizes don’t mesh up. As for Swallow Whole I remembered it existing as feat it some book though I may be mistaken.

    Regardless I think the counting as 3 size categories alone is funny enough to mention.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    As for Swallow Whole I remembered it existing as feat it some book though I may be mistaken.
    Snatch and Swallow (Draconomicon) - but you need to be a Huge Dragon to qualify for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervis View Post
    Regardless I think the counting as 3 size categories alone is funny enough to mention.
    True.
    Another - less RAW-questionable - way to do it is Kobold with Half-Ogre template and Hulking Brute feat: count as Medium - because, indeed, Medium, Small - because of Slight Build, and Large - because of Hulking Brute; can add in Deformity (tall) to be even more "Large" (just for fluff; but +5' reach is nice - even with penalties)

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Not a big one, but still made me blink:


    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Champion
    Light of Faith
    Abjuration [Good]
    Level: Cleric 2
    [...]

    This spell grants you a sacred (if you are good or neutral) or profane (if you are evil) bonus equal to one-half your divine caster level (maximum +5) on your next turning check.
    This spell has the Good descriptor. Thus no evil Cleric can cast it. Thus there is no way to gain a profane bonus with it, despite what it says.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by St Fan View Post
    Not a big one, but still made me blink:

    This spell has the Good descriptor. Thus no evil Cleric can cast it. Thus there is no way to gain a profane bonus with it, despite what it says.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by St Fan View Post
    This spell has the Good descriptor. Thus no evil Cleric can cast it. Thus there is no way to gain a profane bonus with it, despite what it says.
    Good cleric with Evil subtype?
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Archivist?
    Chameleon?
    UMD?
    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    Good cleric with Evil subtype?
    Of course it is possible, there are always ways to get around limitations. But that just show how much proofreading was going on when a good spell can give a profane bonus.
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    PC: Excuse me, what?
    DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.


    "Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by St Fan View Post
    Of course it is possible, there are always ways to get around limitations. But that just show how much proofreading was going on when a good spell can give a profane bonus.
    I think it's better than Evil cleric with spell gives sacred bonus.
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-04-26 at 05:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    The spell Crown of Glory, in its first iteration in BoED, had M/DF in its component line, requiring a costly component, with a pretty precise description of how it is used, only if it was cast as an arcane spell. However, the spell only appears on two specific cleric domains, and on no other spell list, which, barring Arcane Disciple, Planar Touchstone or domain draught (which are options which didn't even exist at the time), means that almost half of the spell's text had absolutely no effect.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    The spell Crown of Glory, in its first iteration in BoED, had M/DF in its component line, requiring a costly component, with a pretty precise description of how it is used, only if it was cast as an arcane spell. However, the spell only appears on two specific cleric domains, and on no other spell list, which, barring Arcane Disciple, Planar Touchstone or domain draught (which are options which didn't even exist at the time), means that almost half of the spell's text had absolutely no effect.
    Geomancer and Spell Versatility? It's still odd to cast it as arcane spell - but, at the very least, it was technically possible to do it back then...

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by bekeleven View Post
    Spellblades have a 4-sentence description and still manage to include text that can be read as contradicting itself. (I think designer intent is clear but I've been in this argument plenty of times.) To quote:
    The RAW looks like the spellblade will outright nullify the first e.g. fireball, preventing it from having any effect on anything. Each subsequent time, the wielder is immune to the fireball but it still damages anyone else in the area.
    ----
    Pathfinder has rules for siege towers. It describes them as having a bottom section for pushing the tower and a roof section as a fighting position. The siege towers supposedly help scale adjacent walls. But the dysfunction is that the written description notably lacks any built-in features like stairs, trapdoors or ladders, or any way to get people into the roof section that's easier than simply climbing the wall.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2022-05-10 at 09:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    The spell Crown of Glory, in its first iteration in BoED, had M/DF in its component line, requiring a costly component, with a pretty precise description of how it is used, only if it was cast as an arcane spell. However, the spell only appears on two specific cleric domains, and on no other spell list, which, barring Arcane Disciple, Planar Touchstone or domain draught (which are options which didn't even exist at the time), means that almost half of the spell's text had absolutely no effect.
    Nitpick: Crown of Glory's first iteration was in Defenders of Faith, which BoED even states in the spell description. Also, back then it only appeared on one specific cleric prestige domain (fittingly enough, the Glory domain.)
    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prestige Domains; Defenders of Faith- page 77
    If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access
    to a prestige domain, the character generally does gain
    access to the domain. She can use the granted power
    bestowed by the domain normally. If she is a divine
    spellcaster (a paladin, ranger, or druid), each day she can
    cast one extra spell of each spell level to which she
    normally has access, which must be the spell from the
    prestige domain for that level. If she is an arcane spellcaster (wizard, sorcerer, or bard), the domain spells are
    added to her spells known—scribed in a wizard’s spellbook, or added to a sorcerer or bard’s list of known spells,
    in addition to the character’s normal number
    Not a dysfunction after all.
    Last edited by Laughing Dog; 2022-05-09 at 08:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Stormwrack's dark tide spell has issues. First, there's the already known type of dysfunction that its area can be considerably larger than its range. Area and range are matched at CL 56 if you center the spell on yourself. Second, well ... It's a Necromancy spell, so what the designers probably intended was changing existing water with negative energy. But that's not what they wrote. Instead, they describe what's clearly a Conjuration effect that creates a mile-wide sphere of water. (Rough sphere, depending on obstacles -- the area is a spread.) The text says "creating a tide of blackwater that spreads out ... until it fills the entire area."

    Even constrained by the spell's Long range, that's a lot of BFC, and it's hard for casters to overcome because if you're casting with V components then you're not holding your breath. It's also a lot of drowning death when used against mundane cities or armies. Or death by pressure and hypothermia from the normal rules for deep and cold water, take your pick.

    So, eh, it's a weak dysfunction, just "this spell is in the wrong school". I mostly wanted to highlight another piece of unintended RAW silliness.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    The Savage Species spell earth reaver says "Those that fail the saving throw are knocked prone." It has no save.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Instead, they describe what's clearly a Conjuration effect that creates a mile-wide sphere of water. (Rough sphere, depending on obstacles -- the area is a spread.) The text says "creating a tide of blackwater that spreads out ... until it fills the entire area."
    It says it creates a tide. A tide is a movement, not a substance.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Don't know if it belongs there, but Arms and Equipment Guide is peppered with mentions of 2E spells which either don't exist in 3E, or, at the very least, don't have the same name.
    So far I noticed:
    Closing Blade required Free Action spell
    Death Spell is a requirement for Balor's Sword of Flame, Balor's Sword of Soul Stealing, and Sword of the Solars

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Don't know if it belongs there, but Arms and Equipment Guide is peppered with mentions of 2E spells which either don't exist in 3E, or, at the very least, don't have the same name.
    So far I noticed:
    Closing Blade required Free Action spell
    Death Spell is a requirement for Balor's Sword of Flame, Balor's Sword of Soul Stealing, and Sword of the Solars
    I. Cast. Death.
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    Default Re: Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Archivist?
    Chameleon?
    UMD?
    Evil cleric of a Neutral deity?

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