Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

[tyckspoon]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but what other use there for the Leadership score, if not for the level and number of cohort and followers?

This would be a Practiced Spellcaster type of effect - if your Leadership score isn't high enough to attract the maximum level of cohort you are otherwise entitled to (for example say you have a low or even negative Charisma modifer, maybe have the penalties for 'moves around a lot' and getting a previous cohort killed so your basic score no longer gets your cohort to level cap) then this bonus can catch you up. Functional rule, just limited in application as the kinds of characters that typically take Leadership won't often need that benefit.

[ShurikVch]

This would be a Practiced Spellcaster type of effect - if your Leadership score isn't high enough to attract the maximum level of cohort you are otherwise entitled to (for example say you have a low or even negative Charisma modifer, maybe have the penalties for 'moves around a lot' and getting a previous cohort killed so your basic score no longer gets your cohort to level cap) then this bonus can catch you up. Functional rule, just limited in application as the kinds of characters that typically take Leadership won't often need that benefit.

Excuse me, but even with penalty - wouldn't this +1 still increase the "maximum number and level of their followers and cohorts"?.. But "maximum ... remains standard"...

[tyckspoon]

Well, cohort level is affected by both the character's level and their Leadership score - you get the lower of what is permitted by your leadership score, or (Level -2.) If you Leadership score is too low you may not be able to get the maximum level cohort you otherwise would have (but if you have a long-term cohort you've probably leveled them up by their own XP gain rather than trying to attract a new one at base level anyways.)

For followers, yeah, it would appear to do absolutely nothing, as those have no other limit other than the one given by the chart and the ability explicitly does not count for that. :shrug: Like I said, it works.. just what it works on is a very niche and small scope.

[Inevitability]

Leadership is not a check...

The interesting bit is that there's at least one other place in the books that refers to 'leadership checks'

You can grossly violate your deities code of conduct, but not your class alignment restriction, without risk of loss of spells or class abilities. If you are a cleric, your alignment may be 2 steps away from your respective deity's alignment instead of just one. (in other words you can violate your deity's alignment restrictions 1 extra step.) You can gain levels without atoning (see the atonement spell description). However, you are in no way exempt from excommunication, or immune to divine retribution from your deity or his servants. In fact your actions invite the highest levels of scrutiny. If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have with another domain outside those normally available to your faith. The new domain must be consistent with the tenets of your heresy (as adjudicated by th DM). Likewise you can exchange your favored weapon and weapon of the deity (Mag) spell effect for another consistent with the tenents of your heresy (as adjudicated by the DM). Taking this feat automatically prompts a leadership check. All cohorts or followers who are members of your faith either agree to your heresy or are lost. Moreover upon your death you are judged one of the false (P 250 FRCS) unless your deity specifically intervenes on your behalf with Kelemvor. Without the use of the Miracle or wish spell, this does not happen unless your heresies are adopted by the deity and the faith as a whole. It is theoretically possible that such intervention could occur long after your death, but such cases are vanishingly rare.

Note how there's no mention of a DC, or even what exactly the check is.

[ShurikVch]

Well, cohort level is affected by both the character's level and their Leadership score - you get the lower of what is permitted by your leadership score, or (Level -2.) If you Leadership score is too low you may not be able to get the maximum level cohort you otherwise would have (but if you have a long-term cohort you've probably leveled them up by their own XP gain rather than trying to attract a new one at base level anyways.)

For followers, yeah, it would appear to do absolutely nothing, as those have no other limit other than the one given by the chart and the ability explicitly does not count for that. :shrug: Like I said, it works.. just what it works on is a very niche and small scope.

Thus, it falls to the definition of what, exactly, is "maximum level cohort"...
OK, "dysfunction by specific reading" - not a valid dysfunction

The interesting bit is that there's at least one other place in the books that refers to 'leadership checks'

Note how there's no mention of a DC, or even what exactly the check is.

Chalk it to the "authors don't know how their own rules work" (like "Armored Uncanny Dodge", "Tumbler's Breastplate", etc)

[Monarch Dodora]

Another dysfunctional spell: Hibernate, from Frostburn. It claims to 'put a creature in suspended animation for weeks at a time', but when it lists out what this 'suspension of life functions' actually does, all it mentions is: automatically stabilizes a dying creature, saves starving or dehydrated creatures from death, and slows natural healing to 1hp/week. Nothing at all about loss of consciousness or inability to take actions. And it lasts 1 week per CL.

[Jervis]

It really does shock me sometimes how literally unusable some things in this game are since the writers didn’t know there own rules. Leadership checks are one of those things that don’t make sense at all as far as I can tell

[St Fan]

One thing that may not be really dysfunctional, but always struck me as odd, is the "[creature] affinity" part of the Bloodline rules.

It gives a bonus (+2, +4 or +6) to some interpersonal skill checks (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform) when interacting with the specific creatures from which a character with a bloodline is related.

My problem is... character with a hybrid template doesn't get any such bonus (for example, a half-dragon doesn't have a +6 or +8 bonus on these skills with true dragons). And I would assume the bloodline is much more diluted with the basic bloodline rules.

Nor full-blooded creatures get a +8 or +10 bonus on these skills with member of their own race. Maybe they should, but with the current rules, that's nowhere the case.

So, what makes character with a diluted bloodline so much more attractive/efficient with their remote relatives?

[Thurbane]

Animus template (Dragon #339):

Now: Alertness; Improved Initiative; Lightning Reflexes... Gee, what "prerequisites"?

In their defense this is likely a case of copy pasting or something.

Yeah it's pretty much copied from the Vampire template (although in this case, Dodge does have a req):

Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.

[Inevitability]

Decipher Script checks are made secretly:

Both the Decipher Script check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false.

So are forgery checks:

The Forgery check is made secretly, so that you’re not sure how good your forgery is.

This makes the Quill of Sivis feat, which grants you the ability to reroll a Decipher Script or Forgery check 1/day... somewhat pointless. It has different benefits too, but still!

[Morphic tide]

Arcane Spell Failure only applies to spells with Somatic components, and is the only constraint affected by Armored Mage. Heavy shields prevent you from using that hand for material or somatic components independently of ASF. Arcane Channeling requires a weapon to deliver the attack. Consequently, the only conditions where the Duskblade's 7th-level improvement of Armored Mage applies to their Arcane Channeling is if they are doing it with a Shield Bash, an Unarmed Strike, a book-dived probably-Exotic hands-free weapon, or have more than two arms.

[Nikker]

Forgive me if any of these had already be mentioned, but I'm very fond of positive/negative energy nonsense, such as:
- Undead technically - RAW - not taking damage on the Positive Energy plane (it gives fast healing, and undead can have fast healing too), although anyone in their right mind would know it's implicit that it's positive-energy-based fast healing, and that it should deal harm to undead.
- Undead technically not gaining any healing by the fact of being on the negative energy plane (negative energy plane imposed negative levels, to which they're immune, but they gain nothing from it; also, a minor negative energy trait will damage living creatures' HPs, but it says nothing about healing undead)

And, loosely related:
Vivacious Creature template, stating that the vivacious creature is incorporeal thus it has no Str score, while at the same time stating that if the creature wants to suppress its Positive Energy Aura, the creature will take 1 point of Str damage for each full minute that the aura is inactive.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The lycanthrope template does not add any of the base animal's subtypes to the base creature, and no mention is made of those subtypes applying in hybrid or animal form. 90% of animals don't have subtypes, and templates which add subtypes would generally change the animal's type to something other than animal, so this usually doesn't matter.

The (aquatic) subtype designates creatures that can breathe water, but not air, such as fish and cephalopods. This ability is tied to the subtype, rather than a special quality or something; if a creature somehow lost its (aquatic) subtype, it would no longer be able to breathe water.

Weresharks drown.

[Inevitability]

The lycanthrope template does not add any of the base animal's subtypes to the base creature, and no mention is made of those subtypes applying in hybrid or animal form. 90% of animals don't have subtypes, and templates which add subtypes would generally change the animal's type to something other than animal, so this usually doesn't matter.

The (aquatic) subtype designates creatures that can breathe water, but not air, such as fish and cephalopods. This ability is tied to the subtype, rather than a special quality or something; if a creature somehow lost its (aquatic) subtype, it would no longer be able to breathe water.

Weresharks drown.

How often would a wereshark curse a human to begin with? I'd expect them to stick to aquatic elves and sahuagin...

[loky1109]

How often would a wereshark curse a human to begin with? I'd expect them to stick to aquatic elves and sahuagin...

Sahuagins are monstrous humanoid.
Asking on your question, I think it happens often enough. It's far more easy to bite human than aquatic elf.

[Inevitability]

Sahuagins are monstrous humanoid.
Asking on your question, I think it happens often enough. It's far more easy to bite human than aquatic elf.

Oh huh, I completely forgot monstrous humanoids can't become lycanthropes. Giants being valid (on that note, has anyone ever used lycanthropic giants?) threw me off.

[loky1109]

Oh huh, I completely forgot monstrous humanoids can't become lycanthropes. Giants being valid (on that note, has anyone ever used lycanthropic giants?) threw me off.

I used weregoat ettin as random encounter once. )

[GreatWyrmGold]

How often would a wereshark curse a human to begin with? I'd expect them to stick to aquatic elves and sahuagin...

I expect weresharks would bite anyone who wound up in the water. And while aquatic elves are always in the water, there are a lot more air-breathers, and some of them are sailors.

I wouldn't expect there to be a ton of air-breathing weresharks, but I also wouldn't expect there to be a ton of weresharks period.

Pathfinder has rules for siege towers. It describes them as having a bottom section for pushing the tower and a roof section as a fighting position. The siege towers supposedly help scale adjacent walls. But the dysfunction is that the written description notably lacks any built-in features like stairs, trapdoors or ladders, or any way to get people into the roof section that's easier than simply climbing the wall.

On one hand, the designers definitely intended there to be some easy way to the top. On the other hand, siege towers like this still have some use; you can climb up out of enemy arrow-range. Sure, you can only get a few people onto the tower, but historically siege towers were used to get high ground for archers more often than they were used for escalade.

It's not not dysfunctional, but it's less dysfunctional than it seems! (And it's a decent excuse to point out fun historical trivia.)

Stormwrack's dark tide spell has issues. First, there's the already known type of dysfunction that its area can be considerably larger than its range. Area and range are matched at CL 56 if you center the spell on yourself. Second, well ... It's a Necromancy spell, so what the designers probably intended was changing existing water with negative energy. But that's not what they wrote. Instead, they describe what's clearly a Conjuration effect that creates a mile-wide sphere of water. (Rough sphere, depending on obstacles -- the area is a spread.) The text says "creating a tide of blackwater that spreads out ... until it fills the entire area."

Even constrained by the spell's Long range, that's a lot of BFC, and it's hard for casters to overcome because if you're casting with V components then you're not holding your breath. It's also a lot of drowning death when used against mundane cities or armies. Or death by pressure and hypothermia from the normal rules for deep and cold water, take your pick.

So, eh, it's a weak dysfunction, just "this spell is in the wrong school". I mostly wanted to highlight another piece of unintended RAW silliness.

It says it creates a tide. A tide is a movement, not a substance.

Let's check the source!

You infuse the target area with the enervating essence of the blackwater depths, creating a tide of blackwater that spreads out from the designated point of origin at a rate of 100 feet per round until it fills the entire area.

On one hand, there's a pretty good argument to be made that "creating a tide" doesn't involve creating new water. On the other hand, "tide" is often used to refer to certain quantities of water rather than just movements of water (most unambiguously, tide pools), so there's an argument to be made that it creates more water to fill the sphere. I wouldn't accept it at my table, but this thread is about RAW, not RAI, and there's a RAW argument.

What's not arguable, however, is that this spell was intended to conjure half a trillion gallons of water. That kind of apocalyptic effect is reserved for 9th-level spells, and if a spell is intended to drown air-breathing casters, it would mention something about that. It's obviously intended to turn existing water into blackwater, so an interpretation that turns it into a mass-water-conjuration effect is dysfunctional.

Oh huh, I completely forgot monstrous humanoids can't become lycanthropes. Giants being valid (on that note, has anyone ever used lycanthropic giants?) threw me off.

They're useful if you want to make a were-elephant or something. Or you could ignore that rule about the base creature and base animal needing to be almost the same size.

[Metastachydium]

I used weregoat ettin as random encounter once. )

They're useful if you want to make a were-elephant or something. Or you could ignore that rule about the base creature and base animal needing to be almost the same size.

In actual fact, the base animal must be a predator, scavenger or omnivore and although the former are infamous for their ability to eat anything, technically speaking, neither goats, nor elephants qualify on account of being herbivores. Huge(+) animals that are eligible include big snakes, some dinosaurs, orcas, cachalot whales, giant crocodiles and the like.

[GreatWyrmGold]

In actual fact, the base animal must be a predator, scavenger or omnivore and although the former are infamous for their ability to eat anything, technically speaking, neither goats, nor elephants qualify on account of being herbivores.

Oh yeah. Man, there are some dumb restrictions on lycanthropy.

[ShurikVch]

In actual fact, the base animal must be a predator, scavenger or omnivore

Oriental Adventures includes, among other monsters, Myin-Kawei, which is... Werehorse
Also, Weresheep flaw

[RSGA]

Arcane Spell Failure only applies to spells with Somatic components, and is the only constraint affected by Armored Mage. Heavy shields prevent you from using that hand for material or somatic components independently of ASF. Arcane Channeling requires a weapon to deliver the attack. Consequently, the only conditions where the Duskblade's 7th-level improvement of Armored Mage applies to their Arcane Channeling is if they are doing it with a Shield Bash, an Unarmed Strike, a book-dived probably-Exotic hands-free weapon, or have more than two arms.

Wouldn't it also apply if the Duskblade has an Animated heavy shield since Animated notes that while you have a free hand to use you still take penalties associated with use and lists ASF? This is both a big and a small circumstance to me.

[St Fan]

I certainly mentioned this already, but I'm not sure it was in such a thread... anyway:

The Cerebral Hood symbiont from the Fiend Folio covers the face of its host facehugger-style and insert its tail inside the throat. Among other benefit, this symbiont makes the host immune to gas, including inhaled poison and disease, since it is basically breathing in his stead...

Just a little problem with that: the Cerebral Hood is an aberration, thus a living being, and nowhere it is stated to be immune to gas or poisons itself. Hence, if you're trying to use it to protect yourself from a toxic environment, the rather weak symbiont is going to die sooner or later, leaving then the host to fend for himself.

[Venger]

In actual fact, the base animal must be a predator, scavenger or omnivore and although the former are infamous for their ability to eat anything, technically speaking, neither goats, nor elephants qualify on account of being herbivores. Huge(+) animals that are eligible include big snakes, some dinosaurs, orcas, cachalot whales, giant crocodiles and the like.

If you had a mind for a nontraditional lycanthrope, the division between herbivores and carnivores is not as binary as most laypeople think. Goats, elephants, deer, cows, etc can and do eat anything that's small, weak, and slow enough for them to catch on occasion.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If you had a mind for a nontraditional lycanthrope, the division between herbivores and carnivores is not as binary as most laypeople think. Goats, elephants, deer, cows, etc can and do eat anything that's small, weak, and slow enough for them to catch on occasion.

On one hand, yes, basically every "herbivore" is technically an omnivore. On the other hand, the fact that the rulebook distinguishes "predator, scavenger, or omnivore" as separate categories from "animal" indicates that it's using a broader, more colloquial definition of "omnivore," one that covers boars and bears but not every grazing animal on the planet.

Just be honest and say you're breaking the dumb rule.

[loky1109]

I think it's some sort of natural selection. To spread out lycanthrope should be able to reproduce itself. They reproduce via infection through saliva-blood way. Base animal should be able to do so behaviorally. For example horses bite humans often, elephants... I don't think so.

[GreatWyrmGold]

1.) Plenty of herbivorous animals bite, and plenty of scavengers only bite dead animals. (Undead werevultures arising from corpses bitten by werevultures would be cool, but that's not how the rules work.)

2.) If that was the idea, wouldn't it make sense to restrict the base animal to creatures with bite attacks, rather than by diet? Not perfect, but it's a closer approximation. I'm pretty sure it's just a genre thing; werewolves and wererats are scary/creepy in a way wererabbits and werecows aren't.

[ShurikVch]

Harper Paragon PrC (Player's Guide to Faerûn) got Aura of Good class feature:

The power of the character’s aura of good is equal to her Harper paragon level. If she has the aura of good ability from another class, levels of that class stack with her Harper paragon levels for the purpose of this ability.

The problem there is: among the prerequisites for this PrC are

Feats: Sacred Vow (Book of Exalted Deeds), Vow of Obedience (Book of Exalted Deeds).

Both Sacred Vow and Vow of Obedience are [exalted] feats, and

A character with at least one exalted feat radiates an aura of good with a power equal to her character level (see the detect good spell), as if she were a paladin or a cleric of a good deity

Thus - not just this class trying to give the character something which they would already have just from the prerequisites, but even shortchanging at doing it (because "Character level" > "Class level")

[GreatWyrmGold]

By RAW, that just makes a Harper Paragon with non-paladin/cleric/HarPar levels slightly harder to detect with detect good. It's dysfunctional, but it's not as consequential a dysfunction as you're describing.

[ShurikVch]

By RAW, that just makes a Harper Paragon with non-paladin/cleric/HarPar levels slightly harder to detect with detect good. It's dysfunctional, but it's not as consequential a dysfunction as you're describing.

So, you think it actively reducing the strength of existing Aura of Good?
Are you sure?
I mean - if it's from the feats rather than class features...

Noticed: Aura of Good as class feature required for Triadic Knight PrC.
I thought it could be a niche use for HarPar's Aura of Good - but then noticed it also required Initiate of Ilmater, Torm, or Tyr - all of which are available only to clerics or paladins...
Is Aura of Good CF a redundant prerequisite there?