Dysfunctional Rules X: I Cast Comprehend Rules

[Bucky]

Let's talk about hugging fire elementals in 3.5.

If you hit a fire elemental with an unarmed attack, you need to save against being set on fire.
If a fire elemental hits you with its natural weapon, you need to save against being set on fire.
If a fire elemental grapples you, that isn't its natural weapon so there is no risk of being set on fire.
If you have been grappled by a fire elemental while unarmed, you can attempt opposed grapple checks to do many things. These aren't attacks, not even the one that does the damage of an unarmed strike, so they won't set you on fire.
Similarly, the fire elemental's own grapple checks won't set you on fire.

In short, hugging or wrestling with fire elementals is unreasonably safe.

[Jack_Simth]

Firstly, I mused about how Cancer Mage - with their Disease Host class feature -

- would "suffers no ill effects" from the loss of their face, and thus - would be able to see without eyes, smell without a nose, drink potions without a mouth...
But then it dawned to me:
-No mouth!
-No nose!!!
How the heck they are supposed to eat, drink, or breath?!!
Thus, unless they either have Iridescent Spindle, or specific anatomy (gills or blowhole) - they should be dead in a couple of hours top (excluding possible excessive Con optimization, persisted Deep Breath or Veil of Undeath)
Those who have some of aforementioned, would still perish in a few days unless they have access to ring of sustenance, psionic sustenance, Elans' Repletion, Elemental or Outsider type

The cancer mage doesn't suffer the ability damage, so never loses face.

[Gruftzwerg]

Let's talk about hugging fire elementals in 3.5.

If you hit a fire elemental with an unarmed attack, you need to save against being set on fire.
If a fire elemental hits you with its natural weapon, you need to save against being set on fire.
If a fire elemental grapples you, that isn't its natural weapon so there is no risk of being set on fire.
If you have been grappled by a fire elemental while unarmed, you can attempt opposed grapple checks to do many things. These aren't attacks, not even the one that does the damage of an unarmed strike, so they won't set you on fire.
Similarly, the fire elemental's own grapple checks won't set you on fire.

In short, hugging or wrestling with fire elementals is unreasonably safe.

Grapple is defined as Special Attack. Thus, the fire elemental works as it should work by common sense. No dysfunction here imho.

[InvisibleBison]

Grapple is defined as Special Attack. Thus, the fire elemental works as it should work by common sense. No dysfunction here imho.

Unfortunately, this doesn't actually resolve the dysfunction. The fire elemental's burn ability only says that the elemental's slam attack deals fire damage and sets people on fire. Other attacks don't do so.

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunately, this doesn't actually resolve the dysfunction. The fire elemental's burn ability only says that the elemental's slam attack deals fire damage and sets people on fire. Other attacks don't do so.

Burn (Ex)

A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental’s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see table). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

"Unarmed Attacks" doesn't sole apply to "Unarmed Strikes" but also to "Grapple".

Unarmed Attacks != Unarmed Strike

Unarmed Attacks = Unarmed Strike; Grapple;...

edit: and while the elemental does not burn an enemy for "grappling" it itself, it will use its slam attack, thus still apply his burn ability.

[ShurikVch]

The cancer mage doesn't suffer the ability damage, so never loses face.

Not exactly: while disease is usually harmless for them, once something damage their Str to 0 - disease would act and they would lose the face...

[InvisibleBison]

"Unarmed Attacks" doesn't sole apply to "Unarmed Strikes" but also to "Grapple".

Unarmed Attacks != Unarmed Strike

Unarmed Attacks = Unarmed Strike; Grapple;...

edit: and while the elemental does not burn an enemy for "grappling" it itself, it will use its slam attack, thus still apply his burn ability.

That creates a new dysfunction without resolving the actual original dysfunction. The new dysfunction is that you take fire damage if you grapple the elemental, but not if it grapples you. And it still doesn't resolve the fact that physical contact with a fire elemental by default does not deal damage. Perhaps the specific example that was cited as evidence of the dysfunction may not be correct, but there are plenty of other cases where it still shows up.

[Gruftzwerg]

That creates a new dysfunction without resolving the actual original dysfunction. The new dysfunction is that you take fire damage if you grapple the elemental, but not if it grapples you. And it still doesn't resolve the fact that physical contact with a fire elemental by default does not deal damage. Perhaps the specific example that was cited as evidence of the dysfunction may not be correct, but there are plenty of other cases where it still shows up.

Why would that be a dysfunction?
I don't see any contradicting rule situation.

"Just because "magical fire" doesn't act like "normal fire" doesn't make it dysfunctional, that is the norm in 3.5

Sure; I get how you feel about this. But you should also keep in mind that especially monster abilities are often tailored towards a specific CR. And in the case of the Fire Elemental, the ability has to be in a similar CR range as the abilities the other elementals with the same CR get.
Maybe that is the intended reasoning behind it, who knows. (That giving the fire elemental a touchattack + fireshield ability would have been to strong).
But what I know is, that by RAW I see no dysfunction. The sole thing broke here is our "imagination of real life fire", but dunno if that should be the measuring tool here.

[InvisibleBison]

Why would that be a dysfunction?
I don't see any contradicting rule situation.

"Just because "magical fire" doesn't act like "normal fire" doesn't make it dysfunctional, that is the norm in 3.5

Where does it say that fire elementals are made of "magical fire"?

Also, you should probably go re-read the opening post, because "dysfunction" does not mean "contradicting rules situation". It seems to me that "fire elementals are made of fire that only sometimes burns things" is a perfect example of

• Rules that, while they don't actually have a negative impact on the game as a game, do stop it making sense (EG fire and acid don't do fire and acid damage, you can fall 9 feet onto your head and take no damage, falling creatures deal no damage if they land on you).

[Gruftzwerg]

Where does it say that fire elementals are made of "magical fire"?

Also, you should probably go re-read the opening post, because "dysfunction" does not mean "contradicting rules situation". It seems to me that "fire elementals are made of fire that only sometimes burns things" is a perfect example of

If that is your interpretation/definition of "dysfunctional", heck easily 50%+ of the spells and abilities are dysfunctional.

- Burning Hands? Your hands are on fire and you take no damage. Dysfunctional
- Flame Blade? You are holding a sword made of fire... also dysfunctional...
- why do form changing abilities only heal when you turn into something else and not also when you turn back? dysfunctional


Sorry but no. If you look at everything on a binary black or white basis, the logic behind this thread falls apart for me. You have to take the supernatural and magical aspects of 3.5 into your common sense logic, or almost anything becomes dysfunctional.

[loky1109]

You have to take the supernatural and magical aspects of 3.5 into your common sense logic, or almost anything becomes dysfunctional.

With that in mind, not burning fire elemental still is dysfunctional.

[Gruftzwerg]

With that in mind, not burning fire elemental still is dysfunctional.

As said, if that is the assumption here, most spells that don't harm the user/caster are dysfunctional. (like in the examples provided).

Same goes for things like First of Energy (Enlightened Fist) or Sacred Flames (Sacred Fist). Wrapping your hands (and feet) in energy/fire that doesn't harm you is also dysfunctional.

Flying/levitation is dysfuntional because of gravity, is this where we will end?

And where does the endless fuel come to keep the fire elemental's fire burning?

An elemental itself is dysfunctional according to that. What does the element keep in shape to form the elemental?

Sorry, but real life physics barely apply to 3.5 and shouldn't be taken as measurement if something is "functional" or "dysfunctional" imho.

It's one thing if something is "dysfunctional" (rules can't produce reliable results) or if it breaks "real life physics" (rules don't always work as in real life). The latter statement is one of the elementary things 3.5 is based on. Supernatural, magical or exceptional abilities that break real life physics.

[loky1109]

As said, if that is the assumption here, most spells that don't harm the user/caster are dysfunctional. (like in the examples provided).

Wrong. Spells are products created with purpose. They designed not to harm spellcaster. Fire elemental is opposite thing.

This isn't "real life physics" this is common sense.

[Gruftzwerg]

Wrong. Spells are products created with purpose. They designed not to harm spellcaster. Fire elemental is opposite thing.

This isn't "real life physics" this is common sense.

Common sense in 3.5 is that often (not always) the user has some control over his abilities to not harm himself or his allies.

This is also true for the Fire Elemental's Burn ability. It has full control when grappling if it wants to burn his target with an Slam attack, or do a non Slam action and not burn his target (e.g. to grapple an ally for some reason).

Further if anyone uses any kind of grappling action against the fire elemental, they take damage.

For me, this is working as intended if I look at other "fire abilities" that work similar.

Just because the Fire Elemental has control over his Burn ability (since its tied to his Slam attack) in grapple doesn't make it dysfunctional imho.

Do you really think that F. Elementals should "double burn" their foes in a grapple?
Once for the initial grapple and then again for the Slam attack? Is that you expectation of normal here?

[loky1109]

This is also true for the Fire Elemental's Burn ability. It has full control when grappling if it wants to burn his target with an Slam attack, or do a non Slam action and not burn his target (e.g. to grapple an ally for some reason).

First, I don't agree with "elemental's full control". I can control myself, but I can't became liquid.

Further if anyone uses any kind of grappling action against the fire elemental, they take damage.

RAW, no.

Just because the Fire Elemental has control over his Burn ability (since its tied to his Slam attack) in grapple doesn't make it dysfunctional imho.

"Tied to Slam attack" isn't "having control". It literally opposite.

Do you really think that F. Elementals should "double burn" their foes in a grapple?
Once for the initial grapple and then again for the Slam attack? Is that you expectation of normal here?

It looks normal. Better than harmless hugs. RAW I can pin elemental for long long time and get no damage.

[ShurikVch]

The cancer mage doesn't suffer the ability damage, so never loses face.

Even if it would be correct for Cancer Mage - it still leaves everybody else...

[Gruftzwerg]

First, I don't agree with "elemental's full control". I can control myself, but I can't became liquid.

"You" can control if you want to make an (unarmed strike) attack or to not make an attack.
The Fire Elemental can control/chose to use its Slam attack or not.
The Fire Elemental doesn't have a "touch attack" ability + fire shield. It has a Slam attack with a burn effect, that also works as kind of fire-shield against enemy attacks.

RAW, no.

Would you be so nice to provide an argument?
I can repeat mine:

Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.

"Hitting": Doesn't require to apply damage. You just need to "hit" with your "attack". So even hitting with a non-damaging touch spell/attack counts here.

"Unarmed Attack": the "Grapple" action is a Special "Attack" that is also made unarmed.

As such the following grapple actions cause you to "Burn" when you attack & hit a Fire Elemental:

Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

As you can see, the you start a grapple and "Grab (step2)" a Fire Elemental and "hit", you get burned.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons

You also get burned if you try to attack the F. Elemental while being a grapple.

"Tied to Slam attack" isn't "having control". It literally opposite.

The F. Elemental can chose to grapple an ally without burning him instantly with his Burn ability, since that is tied to the Slam attack. I meant that as control here.

It looks normal. Better than harmless hugs. RAW I can pin elemental for long long time and get no damage.

You get burned when you "Grab" the fire elemental. And on the Fire Elemental's turn (same round) it can still use its Slam attack to "Burn" you.
Sure it can try to escape the "pin" which would leave you for that turn unharmed. But that fits my imagination. The F. Elemental is winding in the pin and tries to break free of the pin. It can chose to "Slam" and "Burn" or try to escape the "Pin".

[loky1109]

F. elemental's body literally is fire. All body, not just his fists.
Attempt to start grapple burn you, yes, grapple itself don't (I don't have attack elemental, I can do damage via grapple check). Don't you see issue? Grabbing big humanoid shaped piece of fire is harmless. Striking this piece of fire isn't. Touching isn't, too.

And if elemental is pinned, he can't try to strike me, escape grapple is only thing he can try. Pinning elemental is harmless completely.

"The Fire Elemental doesn't have a "touch attack" ability + fire shield."
It should. Something like oozes' acid. This is disfunction.

[Bucky]

You also get burned if you try to attack the F. Elemental while being a grapple.

...but not if you succeed at a grapple check to damage the elemental! That's "equivalent to an unarmed strike", but you don't check for a hit with the strike and thus, dysfunctionally, can't be set on fire.

[Gruftzwerg]

F. elemental's body literally is fire. All body, not just his fists.
Attempt to start grapple burn you, yes, grapple itself don't (I don't have attack elemental, I can do damage via grapple check). Don't you see issue? Grabbing big humanoid shaped piece of fire is harmless. Striking this piece of fire isn't. Touching isn't, too.

And if elemental is pinned, he can't try to strike me, escape grapple is only thing he can try. Pinning elemental is harmless completely.

"The Fire Elemental doesn't have a "touch attack" ability + fire shield."
It should. Something like oozes' acid. This is disfunction.

&

...but not if you succeed at a grapple check to damage the elemental! That's "equivalent to an unarmed strike", but you don't check for a hit with the strike and thus, dysfunctionally, can't be set on fire.

You both are falling trap to the "6 second round" vs "your 6 second turn" imagination.

In the chase that the grapple already started and you did chose not to escape the Fire Elemental's grapple.

1.) You are already taking damage in "this round" from a possible Slam attack
2.) If you just use non-hitting grapple action, you don't hit or make more contact than you already are.
3.) If you attempt to "hit" your enemy with your "grapple action", you take more damage, since you use brute force tactics instead of being smart.

I mean how often should a foe take Burn damage per "round" in grapple? If I follow your arguments I suppose something like up to 4 times?

a) when the F. elemental starts/holds the grapple
b) when the F. Elemental uses its Slam while grappling
c) when you start/hold the grapple (doesn't immediately try to escape)
d) when you attack the elemental unarmed or with natural weapons while grappling

(PS: those options I don't believe in are in RED)

So instead of 1-2 times Burn damage "per round" (my interpretation), you wanna have up to 4 times Burn damage so that it fits your imagination of real life fire. Because somehow you are able to count "how many times real life fire does damage to you." Sorry that I have a hard time believing that you are able to count the amounts of times you take fire damage during 6 seconds. Because that would be the "position" your argument is taking in here.

Is that really your intention here? Does the F. Elemental not enough times Burn dmg per round (in "my interpretation") to satisfy your feeling for realism of fire?

[loky1109]

1.) You are already taking damage in "this round" from a possible Slam attack

What if elemental missed? Or didn't use slam attack? Harmless hugs with fire?

I mean how often should a foe take Burn damage per "round" in grapple? If I follow your arguments I suppose something like up to 4 times?

Don't look at up to, let look at from. From zero times.

So instead of 1-2 times Burn damage "per round" (my interpretation), you wanna have up to 4 times Burn damage so that it fits your imagination of real life fire. Because somehow you are able to count "how many times real life fire does damage to you."

No. I want something instead of nothing which is possible.

b) when the F. Elemental uses its Slam while grappling

If he used it and if he hits.

d) when you attack the elemental unarmed or with natural weapons while grappling

If you do this. You most likely don't.

c) when you start/hold the grapple (doesn't immediately try to escape)

I don't need to start grapple every round, so this isn't "per round" option, it's once. Hold is out of discussion because it isn't (while should).

So I want 1-2 times Burn instead 0-1 per round. Or 1 instead 0 if I pin elemental.

Because somehow you are able to count "how many times real life fire does damage to you."

It's clearly "more than zero times."

---

UPD:

c) when you start/hold the grapple (doesn't immediately try to escape)

I'd say "when you start (or end, don't know what is better) your turn being in grapple with F elemental".

[Gruftzwerg]

What if elemental missed? Or didn't use slam attack? Harmless hugs with fire?


...*snip*...

Haven't you ever seen how someone can move fast in fire without taking any damage? If you are fast enough and don't make long contact you can avoid taking fire damage to some degree. Which means that there need to be a certain amount of contact time for you to take dmg, depending on your speed/agility.

Further, you are assuming that all fire has to be hot and thus damaging.

Btw, did you know that we can produce cold fire (room temperature)? Or even cold enough to "freeze" stuff? (Freezing Fire YT video)
Thus there is no reason to assume that the F. Elemental's body is constantly damaging anything it "touches". As said, its not a touch attack. Sole the Slam attack is able to apply fire dmg to you. And in return, only if you "hit" the elemental unarmed/natural weapon, you accumulate enough fire heat (due to moving directly towards the source of the fire steam) to take damage.
Does this help you to explain what is going on?

Imho you try to forcefully apply real life physics with assumptions (that the fire is damaging all the time) that are not reflected by the rules. While imho there are options to explain the situation with real life physics.

Try to see it this way. In real life you can try to avoid taking fire dmg (minimizing dmg) or you can try to force your way out (taking the risk of more dmg to achieve a goal). Same can be said about the Burn ability. A foe can try to minimize the dmg in a grapple with an immediate escape attempt, or go brute force and remain in a grapple and risk taking more fire damage.
And if he is fast enough (escape the grapple on his first turn being grappled by the F. Elemental), he can avoid being Burned at all.
If he is so insane to pin the F. Elemental, he risks being burned by the Slam ability. The pinned F. Elemental has to chose to either use its Slam to build enough heat to burn you, or focus on escaping the pin.

[loky1109]

Haven't you ever seen how someone can move fast in fire without taking any damage? If you are fast enough and don't make long contact you can avoid taking fire damage to some degree. Which means that there need to be a certain amount of contact time for you to take dmg, depending on your speed/agility.

A foe can try to minimize the dmg in a grapple with an immediate escape attempt, or go brute force and remain in a grapple and risk taking more fire damage.
And if he is fast enough (escape the grapple on his first turn being grappled by the F. Elemental), he can avoid being Burned at all.

You didn't read me or I so bad in writing?

What "move fast" you are talking about? I talk you "I can harmless pin elemental for unlimited amount of time" you talk me about "escape the grapple on his first turn". What?

Btw, did you know that we can produce cold fire (room temperature)? Or even cold enough to "freeze" stuff? (Freezing Fire YT video)

Do you really think it can be about Fire elemental? Fire elemental of room temperature?

And in return, only if you "hit" the elemental unarmed/natural weapon, you accumulate enough fire heat (due to moving directly towards the source of the fire steam) to take damage.

If you move through fire quick (strike elemental) you take damage. If you slowly snuggle fire for a long time you don't.

Thus there is no reason to assume that the F. Elemental's body is constantly damaging anything it "touches".

I disagree.

Does this help you to explain what is going on?

No.

Imho you try to forcefully apply real life physics

Again no.

that are not reflected by the rules

Yes, that's why this is Dysfunctional Rules.

While imho there are options to explain the situation with real life physics.

Occam's razor isn't on your side. Your explanations are more complicated and less intuitive.

[Gruftzwerg]

You didn't read me or I so bad in writing?

What "move fast" you are talking about? I talk you "I can harmless pin elemental for unlimited amount of time" you talk me about "escape the grapple on his first turn". What?

According to your assumption the Fire Elemental has to start a successful grapple attempt and then lose all future rolls, because now magically "sole you win the grapple rolls" to pin him. The Fire Elemental sole tries to escape the pin and not to attack you. How convenient..

Do you really think it can be about Fire elemental? Fire elemental of room temperature?

Do you have any indicator that proves otherwise? Since I'm not biased towards a certain outcome I can easily assume that it is not constantly burning hot. And your assumption is based on what? At least not on the rules presented. Since I tried multiple times to showcase how a legit interpretation of the rules might look like.

If you move through fire quick (strike elemental) you take damage. If you slowly snuggle fire for a long time you don't.

You are totally overshadowing him in the grapple as you said. So much that he sole tries to escape and not hurt you back. Your assuming that the fire elemental tries to escape the grapple and not use the grapple to harm his enemy all the time. Well if the Fire Elemental itself is not interested in harming you, it's no wonder when you never take Burn dmg.
How do you explain that the F. Elemental never tries to successfully use its Slam attack?
It managed to get a hold on you (for unarmed strike dmg), because you can't start a grapple without getting burned (due to the needed successful Touch Attack = unarmed attack). But as said, magically now sole you win the grapple rolls to pin it forever..

I disagree.


No.


Again no.

I know your opinion by now. Repeating it won't convince me. How about some logical arguments to back up your position? If you really wanna convince people of your point of view, it would help to connect your opinion with some logical arguments based on the rule text. Simple yes/no answers are just provocative, since you just say "I'm right, you are wrong, and you have to believe what I say", which is rude.

Yes, that's why this is Dysfunctional Rules.


Occam's razor isn't on your side. Your explanations are more complicated and less intuitive.

After making a bunch of wild assumptions (F. Elemental sole winning its initiating grapple roll and then constantly losing somehow and never wins again), you come to the conclusion that it is dysfunctional. And Occam's Razor should favor you? Sorry, it's the opposite. You have made assumptions not reflected by the rule text, have sole given your minimalist opinion without explanations, while I tried to connect the given rules with real life physics.
You are totally biased towards a specific outcome to forcefully come to the conclusion that the F Elemental is dysfunctional, without giving it a chance to have a legit explanation. That's not how Occam's razor works.

[loky1109]

How do you explain that the F. Elemental never tries to successfully use its Slam attack?

He is pinned.

wild assumptions (F. Elemental sole winning its initiating grapple roll and then constantly losing somehow and never wins again)

Never said that.
Doesn't matter who initiate grapple. Yes, it highly likely can be me, yes, I take Burn once. And what does it change? "Never wins" grapple is exaggeration, but even several round in row (say four) is enough to see issue.

And Occam's Razor should favor you?

Of course yes! I talk about fire elemental itself and your trying to explain why he isn't hot. Room temperature fire elemental is nonsense even if nothing in rulebooks saying this directly.
Forever pin example is just example it shouldn't be something from real game. It isn't assumption it's thought experiment. My sole assumption is: "Fire Elemental should be constantly burning hot." against your: "Fire Elemental can be of room temperature."

---

UPD:

Do you have any indicator that proves otherwise?

Yes, I have!

A mass of ambulatory flame races across the ground, seeming to flicker and spark from a central, humanoid-shaped conflagration. Like a living inferno, the fire-creature’s burning dance of heat and flame brings it ever closer
Fire elementals are fast and agile. The merest touch from their fiery bodies is sufficient to set many materials aflame.

[loky1109]

Let's talk about something less controversial.

Serpent Kingdoms... I bless you...

Members of this house, known as Eselemaa, are known for their jungle srealth and battle-prowess. Those who hunt regularly possess the Prehensile Tail feat and are accomplished at wielding and hurling weapons with their tails.

Well, looks ok, yeah? No, it doesn't.

Prerequisite: STR 13, tail attack, Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiweapon Fighting.

Yuan-Ti don't possess tail attack.

[Jervis]

Not quite a standard dysfunction but seeing as I am who I am it’s worth bringing up that, after all these years, we still aren’t 100% sure how Sha’ir spell retrieval and subsequent spell vanishing works. I have a entire thread somewhere on this site dedicated to explaining how they’re debatably spontaneous casters. That’s definitely a bizarre take and not something I want to launch into a debate about here but just the fact that a Sha’ir can be argued to function as a spontaneous caster, prepared caster, both, or neither is worth bringing up.

[Gruftzwerg]

He is pinned.

Yeah, and what should that change? Are you maybe under the false impression that a pinned character may not attack anymore? If that is the case, reread pls the rule. It sole limits movement ("imobile").

If You’re Pinned by an Opponent

When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a -4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.

Nowhere does the text imply a restriction to your attacks. It sole restricts your movement and provides additional "attack replacement"-actions.

Of course yes! I talk about fire elemental itself and your trying to explain why he isn't hot. Room temperature fire elemental is nonsense even if nothing in rulebooks saying this directly.
Forever pin example is just example it shouldn't be something from real game. It isn't assumption it's thought experiment. My sole assumption is: "Fire Elemental should be constantly burning hot." against your: "Fire Elemental can be of room temperature."

---

UPD:

Yes, I have!

The rulebook provides you with mechanical rules.
As we have agreed, there is no mechanical dysfunction that it becomes unplayable/unsolvable.

While we could explain what is happening with real life physics, you insist that the F. Elemental is constantly having the same high temperature over its entire body. You are implying things that are not presented by rules to discredit em.
What happens when you cover up fire? You extinguish the covered fire (unless the reaction is non Oxigen/air based, which are rare).

And while I said, room temperature fire, that was just meant as one possible option. How about fire with a temperature slightly below boiling point. Contact won't kill you right away, but will definitively hurt you. And since you have now covered the spot, the reaction at that spot is stopped and the temperature starts to drop.

Instead of picking sole one point of view, I would suggest to try multiple views on a situation before calling it dysfunctional. You just picked one view, that you favor for some reason, and ignore other possible options. Instead of relying on non ruletext-based assumptions to discredit rules, you could take the rules and try to find real life explanations. But that might require more work (and sometimes more research... I 'm reminded of a debate where we where discussing the anatomy of beholders and squids and the like, if they have heads for the multiheaded template...
edit: we even had someone outing himself as biology professor, who did gave us a free lesson on the anatomy of animals..^^).

[loky1109]

Yeah, and what should that change? Are you maybe under the false impression that a pinned character may not attack anymore?

This impression isn't false.

This is the false impression:

It sole restricts your movement and provides additional "attack replacement"-actions.

"In place of an attack" doesn't mean you can actually attack. Here this sentence is only for determining numbers of attempts.

Nowhere does the text imply a restriction to your attacks.

Let's read.

If You’re Grappling
...

Cast a Spell
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

...

"Cast a Spell" is the single grapple action option which has this sentence (or even while pinned). This means over options (besides options added in pin description) are not available. In pin description are added two options: "try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack" and "make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action". Eventually we have only three possible action for pinned creature.

If you still don't agree with me, there is one guy who can confirm my words, you maybe know him.

As you might expect, you can't move out of the space you share with a foe that has pinned you. You cannot take any other actions except to make an opposed grapple check to escape the pin in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win the opposed check, you escape the pin, but you're still grappling. If your base attack bonus allows you to make multiple attacks, you can attempt to escape the pin multiple times (at successively lower attack bonuses). If you escape the pin, you're still grappling with your foe, but if you have still have attacks available, you can keep right on grappling, as noted in Part Two.

All About Grappling (Part Three)

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As we have agreed, there is no mechanical dysfunction that it becomes unplayable/unsolvable.

Drown healing has no mechanical dysfunction, too. Isn't it dysfunctional rule? I think it clearly is.
There are no mechanical issue in the non-burning elemental, yes. But it still is dysfunctional, because while it work, it work wrong, not work as it should work.

While we could explain what is happening with real life physics

Your assumption "fire elemental can actually consist of cold fire" while is from real life physics and can be "explanation" doesn't work. First. I gave you quotas where write - Fire Elemental is hot!
Second. Aragorn's pant. J. R. R. Tolkien newer said that Aragorn wore pant. Does it mean that Aragorn walk around parading his reproductive organs or we should use default idea that men wear pants? Nowhere in D&D rules said nothing about Fire elemental temperature, yes. Do you really think Fire elemental can be room temperature without special indication to this? Or can we use our default that "fire is hot"?

And while I said, room temperature fire, that was just meant as one possible option.

It is impossible option.

How about fire with a temperature slightly below boiling point.

Still impossible.

Read again:

The merest touch from their fiery bodies is sufficient to set many materials aflame.

What materials can be set aflame by a room temperature or a temperature slightly below boiling point?

[Bucky]

What materials can be set aflame by a room temperature or a temperature slightly below boiling point?

Quite a few! But you don't tend to encounter them in everyday life for obvious reasons.