Grrl Power VII: Let Me Explain For The Next Thirty Comics!

[The Glyphstone]

No it does not not :p
It points out it dont really matters how powerful a super is if it dont work in hard vacum.
As the solution then always becomes "shoot the space transport"

Its honestly the 40k issue again. There is a lot of fanwank over how badass Space Marines are.
But that kinda overlooks that the important part is the Imperial Navy. Air superiority wins conflicts.

And not even Maxima can survive a surprise hit from a space ship.
(estimate based on official data regarding her power level)

Space ships can also kill planets, and yet there is plenty of fiction that doesn't exclusively feature O'neill cylinders moving at relativistic velocities to escape dueling Von Neumann swarms. Leaving aside the obvious problems that arise if you don't engage with genre conceits, theater superiority is only useful to the point where you can use it without destroying the thing you are fighting over.

If that thing is a planet or anything smaller than a planet, your spaceship can't take and hold ground objectives but infantry can. And in any situation where a ground objective exists, super powered infantry will be better than non-superpowered infantry.

[lord_khaine]

There is a pretty wide range between "able to kill a planet" and has what is about an upgraded nuke

There is also a pretty wide range "Doom! Doom! the unbeatable space horde is comming" and has some neat elite infantry.
(that still need air support to avoid being picked off by hostile air stuff).

[Shining Wrath]

Infantry is the Queen of Battles. Artillery is the King since WWI or thereabouts. Now, view a bomber as a form of artillery. Then, view a spacecraft as a high-altitude bomber, perhaps with guided munitions so they can bomb accurately. Perhaps instead of bombs the spacecraft uses lasers in a short wavelength that punches right through the atmosphere. Point is, you can do some ruthless suppression of enemy air defenses before sending your valuable supers down in a landing craft. Once the super-infantry are on the ground they can (if properly trained as a team) do some nasty combined arms stuff.

[Ibrinar]

Since teleportation as a power is a thing in this setting, a few supers with very long range group teleports would drastically change the situation. Suddenly a group of supers is on your flagship and shooting their vehicle down means shooting your own flagship. If you give everyone random powers quite a few will probably be crap compared to scifi tech, but a few will be game changers.

[Shining Wrath]

Since teleportation as a power is a thing in this setting, a few supers with very long range group teleports would drastically change the situation. Suddenly a group of supers is on your flagship and shooting their vehicle down means shooting your own flagship. If you give everyone random powers quite a few will probably be crap compared to scifi tech, but a few will be game changers.

It depends, of course. Marvel's Nightcrawler is somewhat powerful, but probably can't destroy your flagship by himself. Unless he can bring Thor with him, or the Hulk.

[Mechalich]

The thing about space fantasy warfare is that everything depends on genre and setting specific conceits. Everything. The author decides what the fictional technologies are and how they work and since the central tech - FTL, energy sources, 'shields,' etc. - are usually complete handwavium its turtles all the way down. As such, if Dave says supers are significant in warfare in his space fantasy, then they're significant and the setting warps accordingly so that it shall be so. Based on the Fel encounter the in-universe answer in this case seems to be 'shields,' which at least has a strong pedigree.

[lord_khaine]

Well problem is its based on intern comic stuff, that i guess Dave, or at least Deus, overlook.
The Fell fight kinda showed the importance of having a strong ship for certain.

Of course Tom meanwhile does just see supers as high quality mercenaries to hire.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If you give everyone random powers quite a few will probably be crap compared to scifi tech, but a few will be game changers.

Yeah, some super powers may get outclassed by a spaceship, but others scale quite well into sci-fi levels of power. For instance, if more super-inteligences like Deus pop up that can keep overthrowing theories that have been established for millennia, Earth (or at least Earthlings) will become very very important, quite fast.

What other powers 'scale' well? A few off the top of my head. Super skill like Math (who may or may not have powers himself, but in principle) if applied to something like research science or piloting instead of martial arts (and heck, even martial skill will make you extremely good at boarding enemy ships and taking them over). Truth detection/mind reading. Any ability to predict the future.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure if citing the Fel battleship that Maxima singlehandedly obliterated is a great example of the innate superiority spaceships have over supers...sure, she is an outlier even by super standards, but there's a limitless number of less flashy power sets that could be useful.

Teleportation/portals were mentioned. What about technopathy? That spaceship's not so great when a tech-controlling super has taken it over from a distance. Actually, technopathy in general is probably a power that scales very well, because its utility is directly proportionate to the level of tech it has access to.

[Shining Wrath]

I think a super-hacker could be quite dangerous, so long as some sort of computer is involved in modern warfare / warships. Not the horrible stupidity of Independence Day, mind, but something a little closer to how an actual hacker would operate. Especially if it can be combined with some sort of remote access. There's a reason we have SCIFs; upgrading warships to that level might be expensive.

[InvisibleBison]

What other powers 'scale' well?

Pretty much any non-combat power would remain useful in a sci-fi tech society, I think.

[lord_khaine]

I'm not sure if citing the Fel battleship that Maxima singlehandedly obliterated is a great example of the innate superiority spaceships have over supers...sure, she is an outlier even by super standards, but there's a limitless number of less flashy power sets that could be useful.

It is a great example, because its a mistake to claim Maxima singlehandedly obliterated the Fell Ship.
She did not. It was a teamup between Maxima and Cobra's ship. Who provided shielding for Max while she focused on offense.

Pretty much any non-combat power would remain useful in a sci-fi tech society, I think.

The non-combat powers are likely at least useful.
But at the same time. What non-combat utility do we have thats not already covered by magic?

[Shining Wrath]

It is a great example, because its a mistake to claim Maxima singlehandedly obliterated the Fell Ship.
She did not. It was a teamup between Maxima and Cobra's ship. Who provided shielding for Max while she focused on offense.



The non-combat powers are likely at least useful.
But at the same time. What non-combat utility do we have thats not already covered by magic?

Hacking. Imagine someone as good at getting past computer firewalls as Math is at fighting? I don't see a magical equivalent to that.
Persuasion. Persuasion is not the same as magical mind control, because it's more permanent and the person doesn't hate you if it fails. Imagine someone whose ability to change people's opinions is on the same level as Maxima's death ray. Imagine that person with a TV show.

[lord_khaine]

I confess i cant really imagine someone being better at hacking than a AI.
Or for that matter counter-hacking.

It also kinda seems like Succubi to a large degree already cover the persuasion bit.
But its more Deus im worried about behind a TV show. Since his super intelligence would allow him to run circles around political opponents.

[Keltest]

I confess i cant really imagine someone being better at hacking than a AI.
Or for that matter counter-hacking.

It also kinda seems like Succubi to a large degree already cover the persuasion bit.
But its more Deus im worried about behind a TV show. Since his super intelligence would allow him to run circles around political opponents.

There is very much a level where its possible to be too intelligent to be able to communicate with people. Deus is smart, and sort of charismatic, but just look at the one TV interview he had on page. He can't get people on his side just by force of words, he needs to plan things ahead and have tangible benefits for anybody to want anything to do with him. Money, items, information, THESE are what he has to deal with people, and nobody actually likes or listens to him on a personal level except maybe Harem (who's motives and allegiances are currently unknown).

[Shining Wrath]

I think seduction is only one form of persuasion, and despite what James Bond movies suggest, it does not work on everyone.

An AI could apply the techniques developed by a skilled hacker, endlessly and rapidly, but spotting the holes in a piece of software is still a human skill.

A super performer could be interesting; an Orpheus type where you literally cannot take your eyes off them while they perform. As part of a team while the super pickpocket cleans everyone out.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Have we actually seen any AIs yet? I can't remember any of the top of my head, excluding magical constructs and the aliens on Alari (assuming they were robots), none of whom displayed any of the incredible intelligence/processing speed typically associated with sci-fi AIs.

[Traab]

I'm not sure if citing the Fel battleship that Maxima singlehandedly obliterated is a great example of the innate superiority spaceships have over supers...sure, she is an outlier even by super standards, but there's a limitless number of less flashy power sets that could be useful.

Teleportation/portals were mentioned. What about technopathy? That spaceship's not so great when a tech-controlling super has taken it over from a distance. Actually, technopathy in general is probably a power that scales very well, because its utility is directly proportionate to the level of tech it has access to.

If anything, the fel battle shows that supers really ARE a game changer when it comes to sci fi battles. Cora was flabbergasted by EVERYONE, not just maxima. From jiggawatt and her ultra high voltage shorting out shields, to guys like stalwart and hiro just punching entire ranks of fel soldiers like sauron swinging his mace, to yes, maxima, one shotting a fel battlecruiser. That being said, air superiority is how wars are won. If you control the skies, you can control the ground with your infantry. Take maxima out of the equation, without her there, it doesnt matter how many fell troops hiro can one punch unless he can also absorb battlecruiser blasts as well.

[The Glyphstone]

Like I said above though, Hiro doesn't need to tank a battlecruiser blast. He just needs to be sitting on top of something important enough that the battlecruiser isn't willing to blow it up to kill him. That's when you need your infantry.

[Gez]

That being said, air superiority is how wars are won. If you control the skies, you can control the ground with your infantry.

Air superiority is a way to win battles, not to win wars. And you can lose a war despite winning every battle; that's the lesson of asymmetric warfare and counter-insurgency. Post-colonial wars in Africa, Vietnam war, Soviet war in Afghanistan, American war in Afghanistan, and so on... all wars lost despite air superiority and, on paper, overwhelming conventional advantages.

Super powers are less about being able to tank a blast from a battlecruiser, and more about an unknown number of random people being able to scry-and-fry your battlecruiser. If your costly military equipment can be lost just because some anonymous guy you had no way of knowing about just discovered he could blow it up just by wishing it away very hard, you're just out of luck. You may not even know who did it. Or how many others could do the same thing.

[Shining Wrath]

Air superiority is very expensive - for every plane there's a highly trained crew to fly it, and a highly trained crew to maintain it, and a whole lot of logistics to keep the expensive avionics and high-performance engines working.

And all of that can be lost if a Hiro hops over your fence, runs at incredible speed onto your flight line, and punches each plane once. Or picks one plane up and tosses it onto the next one, wash, rinse, repeat. To say nothing of what the pew-pew-pew supers (Halo, Maxima) can do. Air superiority relies on air bases being secure, and someone who looks like a civilian right up until they start trashing your aircraft makes that really hard.

Somewhat relevant story: Moffat NAS in Mountain View held an airshow, and had planes on static display. Some dude with too much liquid stupidity in his belly crossed over the ropes to get a closer look at an F-16.

Attendant (young woman): "Sir, please return to the other side of the rope."
Dude: Unprintable misogyny.
Attendant: Uses radio
Sound of Marine police approaching rapidly. Large men in full military gear form line between dude and plane
Attendant: "Sir, get your a$$ on the other side of that rope".
Dude: Sheepishly complies

Now imagine if Dude is not drunken idiot and instead is capable of trashing a squad of Marines.

[sihnfahl]

And all of that can be lost if a Hiro hops over your fence, runs at incredible speed onto your flight line, and punches each plane once. Or picks one plane up and tosses it onto the next one, wash, rinse, repeat. To say nothing of what the pew-pew-pew supers (Halo, Maxima) can do. Air superiority relies on air bases being secure, and someone who looks like a civilian right up until they start trashing your aircraft makes that really hard.

Or, heck, fouls the fuel supply. Midair 'sputter, clunk'.

[Shining Wrath]

Or, heck, fouls the fuel supply. Midair 'sputter, clunk'.

Imagine a chemistry / alchemy super and fuel tanks. Works for tanks / APVs, too. Or for that matter, gunpowder & equivalents.

[sihnfahl]

Imagine a chemistry / alchemy super and fuel tanks. Works for tanks / APVs, too. Or for that matter, gunpowder & equivalents.

And then H2O becomes H2O2... in your cells. All of it.

[The Glyphstone]

To play devils advocate, when you are dealing with Space/orbital superiority over atmospheric air superiority, a lot of these problems do get muted somewhat depending on the range of a particular supers unique ability. At the very least, Hiro can't destroy/sabotage docked ships in a hangar/moon base as easily as he can fighters parked on the ground (unless paired with a mobility power super).

[sihnfahl]

To play devils advocate, when you are dealing with Space/orbital superiority over atmospheric air superiority, a lot of these problems do get muted somewhat depending on the range of a particular supers unique ability. At the very least, Hiro can't destroy/sabotage docked ships in a hangar/moon base as easily as he can fighters parked on the ground (unless paired with a mobility power super).

And the limit of the mobility super's power. As Sydney found out, space laughs at your puny mach 1.

[Shining Wrath]

To play devils advocate, when you are dealing with Space/orbital superiority over atmospheric air superiority, a lot of these problems do get muted somewhat depending on the range of a particular supers unique ability. At the very least, Hiro can't destroy/sabotage docked ships in a hangar/moon base as easily as he can fighters parked on the ground (unless paired with a mobility power super).

Also, Hiro needs to breathe, so far as I can tell.

And the limit of the mobility super's power. As Sydney found out, space laughs at your puny mach 1.

Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

Unless you're Halo, you need to be part of a combined-arms team. She's the only one who can provide her own air, teleport, and then fight when she gets there. Everyone else needs to be part of a team.

[Traab]

Also, Hiro needs to breathe, so far as I can tell.





Unless you're Halo, you need to be part of a combined-arms team. She's the only one who can provide her own air, teleport, and then fight when she gets there. Everyone else needs to be part of a team.

Too be fair, her teleport isnt exactly long distance, its as far as she can send her light bee. And her flight isnt really interstellar level. She has the fold space travel skill, but has no idea how to aim it other than by clicking on saved locations. So sydney honestly wouldnt be very useful for traveling to a moon base or something further away. Anything in earths atmosphere/orbit? Sure, she could handle bringing the hero squad at a fast clip. Anything lunar or beyond? Probably not so much.

[sihnfahl]

Too be fair, her teleport isnt exactly long distance, its as far as she can send her light bee. And her flight isnt really interstellar level. She has the fold space travel skill, but has no idea how to aim it other than by clicking on saved locations. So sydney honestly wouldnt be very useful for traveling to a moon base or something further away. Anything in earths atmosphere/orbit? Sure, she could handle bringing the hero squad at a fast clip. Anything lunar or beyond? Probably not so much.

I think it was intimated that Sydney learned how to use the Causeway feature of her speed orb back here The only thing it lacked was a map, and they hooked her up, so she's got a few major locations saved up until she can finagle more.

[Traab]

I think it was intimated that Sydney learned how to use the Causeway feature of her speed orb back here The only thing it lacked was a map, and they hooked her up, so she's got a few major locations saved up until she can finagle more.

It is possible she can use it for more than day trips to the fracture station and back, I forgot about that, but even then, not sure if it lets her go wherever she wants more or less or if its just a few major landmarks she can work with to re-orient herself on.