Grrl Power VII: Let Me Explain For The Next Thirty Comics!

[sihnfahl]

But things can be legal and still be morally bad. Slavery comes to mind.

Yeah, legal isn't moral, and morality isn't legality.

Right at the top of this comic's commentary.

Whew, yeah, I guess I forgot that one from how silly it is.

Deus is literally in a position where a terrorist act can be tried and sentenced in absentia.

[Traab]

I think the problem here is the difference between a hero and a political leader, and a villain. Deus is not a hero, however he also isnt evil. If anything I would put his D&D morality in true neutral. He does what he wants to achieve his goals. He doesnt go out of his way to torment others (outside of minor trolling) he looks for the most effective path towards his goals, good or evil is factored in, but not as heavily as "Will it work?" That being said, he clearly has limits he isnt willing to exceed, or at least hasnt been so far. He restricts his killing to corrupt heads of state, terrorist scum, and army versus army conflicts. Those are not in and of themselves acts of evil. He is willing to work with bad guys to achieve his goals, but likely reasons that he is restraining their actions while they work for him and thus protecting people while also using them to achieve his goals. He also is clearly willing to help people, assuming the info we get is accurate, he has spent billions rebuilding his new territory to make it a far better place for everyone inside it. You can argue he is after long term profit and probably would be right, but that doesnt negate the fact that he is improving the lives of millions of people.

Now, this is all based on what we have seen and heard about him, so it IS possible its all an act and once he reaches a certain stage he will go full mwahaha and peel off the cover over his snidely whiplash mustache and start twirling it, but as things stand right now, he isnt that bad. He isnt that good and is causing all sorts of issues, but he isnt really being "evil"

[Shining Wrath]

I think the problem here is the difference between a hero and a political leader, and a villain. Deus is not a hero, however he also isnt evil. If anything I would put his D&D morality in true neutral. He does what he wants to achieve his goals. He doesnt go out of his way to torment others (outside of minor trolling) he looks for the most effective path towards his goals, good or evil is factored in, but not as heavily as "Will it work?" That being said, he clearly has limits he isnt willing to exceed, or at least hasnt been so far. He restricts his killing to corrupt heads of state, terrorist scum, and army versus army conflicts. Those are not in and of themselves acts of evil. He is willing to work with bad guys to achieve his goals, but likely reasons that he is restraining their actions while they work for him and thus protecting people while also using them to achieve his goals. He also is clearly willing to help people, assuming the info we get is accurate, he has spent billions rebuilding his new territory to make it a far better place for everyone inside it. You can argue he is after long term profit and probably would be right, but that doesnt negate the fact that he is improving the lives of millions of people.

Now, this is all based on what we have seen and heard about him, so it IS possible its all an act and once he reaches a certain stage he will go full mwahaha and peel off the cover over his snidely whiplash mustache and start twirling it, but as things stand right now, he isnt that bad. He isnt that good and is causing all sorts of issues, but he isnt really being "evil"

If I'm Maxima, I wouldn't kill him, but I damn sure wouldn't trust him.

[lord_khaine]

Okay, I missed the part about them (trying?) to bomb a hospital. I'll agree, they qualify as terrorists. That still doesn't mean it's okay to extrajudicially murder them, though.

Panel 3 implies, and the author's reply to this comment makes explicit, that Deus is having a missionary executed solely for preaching against the use of condoms.

Well fair. I did in turn not see the authors comment.
The preacher is perhaps the one guy who should just at most have been thrown into prison.
Even if he did a lot of damage he was well meaning.

Sure, the previous king was a bad dude, but that doesn't justify Deus murdering him.

Hmm.. well how bad does a tyrant have to be, before its justified overthrowing them?
Whatever examples you got, im pretty certain its only a question of scale when it comes to the difference between this guy and the others.

Your argument seems to be "It's impossible for a ruler to be a good person, so we should ignore issues of morality when evaluating rulers". I see no reason to accept this argument, and thus no reason to think Deus is a good ruler.

How is it the saying goes? You shall know them by their fruits?
Of all the members of the comic, Deus have by far done the most to make the world a better place to live in.
By taking some millions of people and shifting them from not having electricity to having cheap smartphones.

Well arguments can be made for Max, for being the main force behind stopping an alien invasion. We still dont know what was up with the aftermath of that.
Or with Dabbler, who have been an adventure for 3 centuries or so.

But thats mostly preserving the status queu.

Else for another interesting little twist of morality.
Darude. Interestingly enough. Looking at things from his point of view he is a super hero.
First he risked his life fighting foreign invaders, going up against the strongest known super.

Now he is at it again, trying to put an end to some nutjob who have been summoning demons.
Thats.. basically as heroic as it gets?

[InvisibleBison]

Hmm.. well how bad does a tyrant have to be, before its justified overthrowing them?
Whatever examples you got, im pretty certain its only a question of scale when it comes to the difference between this guy and the others.

Many tyrants can be overthrown without killing them, and Indinge was definitely one of them. Deus could easily have had his supers incapacitate Indinge, locked him in a cell somewhere, and announce that he'd died. The fact that he was a tyrant and needed to be removed does not justify his murder.

[Traab]

Many tyrants can be overthrown without killing them, and Indinge was definitely one of them. Deus could easily have had his supers incapacitate Indinge, locked him in a cell somewhere, and announce that he'd died. The fact that he was a tyrant and needed to be removed does not justify his murder.

I mean, he may just be following the laws of the kingdom. Mass murder is often one of those crimes that gives you the death penalty in any nation where executions are a thing. And im pretty sure deus showed his son the mass graves and other atrocities his dad was guilty of. I agree, he absolutely could have just locked the dude up in some pocket space hidden in siberia or whatever, but why should he? What benefit is there to keeping a mass murdering tyrant alive in prison? And what sort of prison? He cant be kept in isolation for the rest of his life, thats considered torture. Cant put him in general population, word gets out he is alive there will be problems. I suppose they could put him up in a nice barred apartment he cant escape from with access to netflix and hulu or whatever but that hardly seems a fit punishment for a monster. Again, we seem to be hitting up against one of those "heroes dont kill" type of arguments when nobody is saying he is a hero, they are saying he is a good head of state.

[Shining Wrath]

Normally, "killing people when you have other workable options" is considered bad. We don't know what Deus' options really were, though.

I think we're going to have ambiguity about Deus' morality until the time for the Big Reveal to serve the story's plot. I'm leaning towards Sudden but Inevitable Betrayal, but it's possible that Sacrificing Self for Good of All is coming.

[InvisibleBison]

What benefit is there to keeping a mass murdering tyrant alive in prison?

Dead people cannot make amends for their crimes. Sure, it's hugely unlikely that Indinge could be brought to the realization that what he did as king was immoral, but it's not impossible, and I think it would have been worth making the effort.

[Radar]

Normally, "killing people when you have other workable options" is considered bad. We don't know what Deus' options really were, though.

I think we're going to have ambiguity about Deus' morality until the time for the Big Reveal to serve the story's plot. I'm leaning towards Sudden but Inevitable Betrayal, but it's possible that Sacrificing Self for Good of All is coming.

Or he remains a necessary evil (or necessary morally ambiguous person) that the main team needs to deal with, which is a constant source of tension - a self-serving schemer that is simply too useful not to make deals with. There does not need to be any final resolution to that the same way that for example Maxima and Hiro can tease each other without it going anywhere.

[Traab]

Dead people cannot make amends for their crimes. Sure, it's hugely unlikely that Indinge could be brought to the realization that what he did as king was immoral, but it's not impossible, and I think it would have been worth making the effort.

How do you make amends for killing who knows how many people over the course of likely decades as an iron fisted tyrant? And why should deus even bother trying to go that route as there is literally nothing in it for him? And good lord, there is good, then there is irrationally saintly. And trying to redeem indinge and bring him into the light? Thats way outside of rational thought. Thats like... stereotypical archangel type talk. You dont have to be better than mr rogers to be good.

[InvisibleBison]

How do you make amends for killing who knows how many people over the course of likely decades as an iron fisted tyrant?

You don't. You can't. Even a single murder is something you can't really make amends for. But that doesn't mean you can't try. If Deus had somehow convinced Indinge to start doing good things with his life, more good things would have been done than if Deus had killed Indinge, so I consider the former a better outcome than the latter.

And why should deus even bother trying to go that route as there is literally nothing in it for him?

There's not nothing in it for him. If Indinge could be persuaded to do good, the world as a whole would improve, and Deus would benefit from that. Admittedly, his benefit would be more or less infinitesimal - probably nothing more than a moment of satisfaction when he reads a report about Indinge's behavior - but given that he has effectively infinite resources it wouldn't cost him anything, so what's there for him to lose?

And good lord, there is good, then there is irrationally saintly. And trying to redeem indinge and bring him into the light? Thats way outside of rational thought. Thats like... stereotypical archangel type talk. You dont have to be better than mr rogers to be good.

While I agree that one doesn't have to behave in the best possible fashion to qualify as good, that doesn't mean one shouldn't do so when one has the opportunity.

[lord_khaine]

While I agree that one doesn't have to behave in the best possible fashion to qualify as good, that doesn't mean one shouldn't do so when one has the opportunity.

The argument can be made, that Deus actually did do that, when he arranged for a quick and fairly painless death for a mass murdering warlord?
I do think the world is a better place without him.

[Radar]

The argument can be made, that Deus actually did do that, when he arranged for a quick and fairly painless death for a mass murdering warlord?
I do think the world is a better place without him.

I think that you operate under an utilitarian idea of goodness (outcome and statistical happiness are the only metrices), while other people resort to different moral paradigms, where ends do not justify the means.

[Vahnavoi]

Everything Deus does and has done is questionable even under strict consequentalist Utilitarian framework because we don't actually know what utility he's working towards and we don't have real proof-of-work for his utility calculus beyond what amounts to "just trust me, bro".

Even more, while he puts on air of extreme Utilitarian, we don't actually know if he is one. His supposed speech to those condemned to execution refers to consequentialism and morality versus ethics, but Vale conveniently skips over all details.

[Shining Wrath]

We still don't know the answer to the fundamental question: does Deus do good for others because he calculates (correctly) it results in more power for him, as he moves toward taking over the world? Or does he seek power, ultimately taking over the world, so that he can do good? Or maybe not do good, but prevent evil?

Second question: even if we assume the latter, that his intentions are ultimately good, he may very well be paving the road to hell with them; that is, he's not as smart and capable as he believes himself to be, and will his well-intentioned efforts to seize power will lead to catastrophe?

The problem with sacrificing democracy because the Great Leader is Great, is that the Great Leader can be replaced by the Dear Leader, who makes you say "Oh, Dear" on a regular basis. Once you set up an autocracy you have the problem of finding a worthy successor. The real-world history of monarchies gives us many examples of effective leaders whose sons or granddaughters were totally unworthy of the throne they inherited. "Dune" series, anyone?

Therefore, I argue that *any* autocracy, no matter the intentions of the autocrat, is inherently problematic and should be avoided, and that seeking autocratic power is inherently immoral. "Democracy is the worst system of government imaginable - until you look at all the others that have been tried". - Winston Churchill, who might be entitled to an opinion about autocrats.

EDIT: You may be about to say "Deus intends to live a very long time with various technologies". And I say "Maxima could kill him in seconds. For that matter, so could Halo with the teleport to deep space stunt. The Dear Leader just needs to find a Super Great Leader doesn't know about who is sufficiently lethal and pay that super's price".

[Radar]

The problem with sacrificing democracy because the Great Leader is Great, is that the Great Leader can be replaced by the Dear Leader, who makes you say "Oh, Dear" on a regular basis. Once you set up an autocracy you have the problem of finding a worthy successor. The real-world history of monarchies gives us many examples of effective leaders whose sons or granddaughters were totally unworthy of the throne they inherited. "Dune" series, anyone?

Indeed. Although Dune might not be the best example as Leto was decidedly competent and executed his plan without problems. If he was good for the people, that is a different question and a whole topic on its own.

That being said, democracy might seem inefficient and riddled with many problems, but it is consistently bad, which is at the end of the day probably the most important thing and allows people to go about their lives and there is room for growth on a personal and business level.

[Shining Wrath]

Indeed. Although Dune might not be the best example as Leto was decidedly competent and executed his plan without problems. If he was good for the people, that is a different question and a whole topic on its own.

That being said, democracy might seem inefficient and riddled with many problems, but it is consistently bad, which is at the end of the day probably the most important thing and allows people to go about their lives and there is room for growth on a personal and business level.

By "consistently bad" I take it you mean it offers stability and continuity, which is usually true. Until it isn't - if the system gets paralyzed and ignores important problems.

Book my dad had demonstrated the political spectrum this way (no actual political issues mentioned).
Imagine your town has an airport. Very important: assume nothing about the airport. It can be new, old, big, small, well-maintained, a wreck; anything's possible.

Liberals say a new airport is needed.
Conservatives say the airport is fine as it is.
Moderates want to improve the airport in some fashion.

In most times, this describes most people's politics, and depending on the condition of the airport, anyone can be right.

But there's the radicals.
The radical left wants to blow up the airport and replace it with a spaceport.
The radical right wants to blow up the airport and go back to using trains.

Note that both sets of radicals agree in blowing up the existing system and replacing it with something else.
The radical left wants to move toward an idealized (and possibly impractical) future.
The radical right wants to move toward an idealized (and possibly mis-remembered) past.

Deus is trying for radical left (an idealized future) using authoritarian techniques.

[Radar]

By "consistently bad" I take it you mean it offers stability and continuity, which is usually true. Until it isn't - if the system gets paralyzed and ignores important problems.

Yes, that's what I meant - sluggish and incompetent in a predictable way. Catastrophic failures still happen - can't fully avoid that.

Book my dad had demonstrated the political spectrum this way (no actual political issues mentioned).
Imagine your town has an airport. Very important: assume nothing about the airport. It can be new, old, big, small, well-maintained, a wreck; anything's possible.

Liberals say a new airport is needed.
Conservatives say the airport is fine as it is.
Moderates want to improve the airport in some fashion.

In most times, this describes most people's politics, and depending on the condition of the airport, anyone can be right.

But there's the radicals.
The radical left wants to blow up the airport and replace it with a spaceport.
The radical right wants to blow up the airport and go back to using trains.

Note that both sets of radicals agree in blowing up the existing system and replacing it with something else.
The radical left wants to move toward an idealized (and possibly impractical) future.
The radical right wants to move toward an idealized (and possibly mis-remembered) past.

Deus is trying for radical left (an idealized future) using authoritarian techniques.

I like the example very much: clear, to the point and does not lean in any particular direction. What book was it (title, author)?

I might only add that the radicals tend to not have precise plans beyond the blowing up phase unfortunately.

[Shining Wrath]

Yes, that's what I meant - sluggish and incompetent in a predictable way. Catastrophic failures still happen - can't fully avoid that.


I like the example very much: clear, to the point and does not lean in any particular direction. What book was it (title, author)?

I might only add that the radicals tend to not have precise plans beyond the blowing up phase unfortunately.

I do not remember; this was 30+ years ago. That's why the radical left wanted a spaceport, not high speed rail.

[Mechalich]

To move away from a political framing, one of the alternative problems with Deus' approach is that whether or not it might work in theory, it can't work in this comic simply because it would take too long to unfold. Deus has gone, over the course of just over a thousand comics, from ruling a city-state to ruling an averaged-sized nation-state. World conquest, even if he could do it, is something that would more strips than exist in the lifespan of the comic. This comic simply doesn't operate with a style or narrative scale capable of letting Deus' 4x dreams play out.

[Radar]

To move away from a political framing, one of the alternative problems with Deus' approach is that whether or not it might work in theory, it can't work in this comic simply because it would take too long to unfold. Deus has gone, over the course of just over a thousand comics, from ruling a city-state to ruling an averaged-sized nation-state. World conquest, even if he could do it, is something that would more strips than exist in the lifespan of the comic. This comic simply doesn't operate with a style or narrative scale capable of letting Deus' 4x dreams play out.

Or maybe it is not the main story of the comics and is not meant to be finished within its span. It might be just a backdrop for other things to happen on. Like right now our gang traveled to Africa plot-wise in order for Maxima to have a rematch against someone from her past, who was comparable in power to her.

[Dragonus45]

Or maybe it is not the main story of the comics and is not meant to be finished within its span. It might be just a backdrop for other things to happen on. Like right now our gang traveled to Africa plot-wise in order for Maxima to have a rematch against someone from her past, who was comparable in power to her.

Frankly I think things galactically might escalate faster then he anticipates and that turns into the problem with his plans. Well that and him being a low key monster. I hope not though because I don't want things to be so heavily focused on the galactic ****.

[Keltest]

Frankly I think things galactically might escalate faster then he anticipates and that turns into the problem with his plans. Well that and him being a low key monster. I hope not though because I don't want things to be so heavily focused on the galactic ****.

Indeed. Deus' plans will almost certainly come to a halt when his expansion finally ticks off enough people, and big enough nations, that they will move against him out of principle instead of dancing to the strings of world improvement he promises. As soon as he hits a group with enough quality of life that they can afford to behave in a semi-arbitrary manner, he loses a lot of his ability to predict people because Deus isnt actually that much of a people person.

[Mechalich]

Or maybe it is not the main story of the comics and is not meant to be finished within its span. It might be just a backdrop for other things to happen on. Like right now our gang traveled to Africa plot-wise in order for Maxima to have a rematch against someone from her past, who was comparable in power to her.

That's kind the broader point though.

First, it's not entirely clear that Grrlpower actually has a main story. Truthfully insofar as there is a plot is mostly seems to be an excuse to display unreasonable attractive people in unreasonably skimpy outfits without getting labelled as erotica (I don't blame Dave for this, there are very strong financial reasons to produce not-erotica even when what you actually want to do is write erotica).

Second, if Deus' grand plan isn't going to actually go anywhere, why spend so much time on it? As the thread title makes clear, Grrlpower also has a tendency to run backstory and/or setting lore instead of actual story. This is probably a product of it not really having a story beyond Sydney's initial recruitment arc, but as a result the plot isn't a line so much as a snarled tangled of aborted threads.

[lord_khaine]

Indeed. Deus' plans will almost certainly come to a halt when his expansion finally ticks off enough people, and big enough nations, that they will move against him out of principle instead of dancing to the strings of world improvement he promises. As soon as he hits a group with enough quality of life that they can afford to behave in a semi-arbitrary manner, he loses a lot of his ability to predict people because Deus isnt actually that much of a people person.

I think you overlooked key parts of Deus's plan.
He isnt initially going to do anything with anywhere but crappy parts of afrika that noone else with the power to oppose him care about.
While the people with the power to oppose him is a rappidly shrinking list of major world powers. Who would rather seek trade benefits than ponder the 10-20 year issues of Deus's goals.

I also think your wrong about Deus's ability to predict things or play people.
He might behave like a goofball yeah. If lex Luther did that instead of mucking around with feuds or green power suits then i think he could accomplish a lot more.
Instead as is Deus is seen like an excentric billionare with a pet state. Not a concern for anyone.

But he did engineer the conflict with Sciona to get the sky breaker.
And he did play the Alari so subtly only his secretary noticed.
As well as, of course, move from company, to small country, to decently sized country in a span of 10 years.
Without making anyone who matters care.

[Keltest]

I think you overlooked key parts of Deus's plan.
He isnt initially going to do anything with anywhere but crappy parts of afrika that noone else with the power to oppose him care about.
While the people with the power to oppose him is a rappidly shrinking list of major world powers. Who would rather seek trade benefits than ponder the 10-20 year issues of Deus's goals.

I also think your wrong about Deus's ability to predict things or play people.
He might behave like a goofball yeah. If lex Luther did that instead of mucking around with feuds or green power suits then i think he could accomplish a lot more.
Instead as is Deus is seen like an excentric billionare with a pet state. Not a concern for anyone.

But he did engineer the conflict with Sciona to get the sky breaker.
And he did play the Alari so subtly only his secretary noticed.
As well as, of course, move from company, to small country, to decently sized country in a span of 10 years.
Without making anyone who matters care.

Except the US and ARCHON are caring, right now. People going "huh, this guy is invading sovereign nations with an army of literal demons. Lets take a closer look at that." is kind of the current reason for them being in Deus' lands in the first place.

[Radar]

Except the US and ARCHON are caring, right now. People going "huh, this guy is invading sovereign nations with an army of literal demons. Lets take a closer look at that." is kind of the current reason for them being in Deus' lands in the first place.

And this is exactly why he has a trade offer that the in-comics US simple will not be able to refuse - he is making himself too useful to depose. Despite all the risks with leaving him unchecked, whichever global superpower takes his offer first, will have a serious advantage over the others. If for example US decided to move against Deus, another global superpower would back him up to get that shielding tech among other things Deus has for trade. Letting Maxima and by extension the US government know about the secret behind superpowers is also part of that. Getting details on that will most likely be more important than those futuristic fighter jets with shielding. Quite many countries would let Dues do whatever in Africa just to get their hands on the know-how of eventually making superheroes.

There are some interesting examples in history where a small country can leverage the feud between much bigger countries to its own advantage. For obvious reasons I will not discuss those here.

[halfeye]

That's kind the broader point though.

First, it's not entirely clear that Grrlpower actually has a main story. Truthfully insofar as there is a plot is mostly seems to be an excuse to display unreasonable attractive people in unreasonably skimpy outfits without getting labelled as erotica (I don't blame Dave for this, there are very strong financial reasons to produce not-erotica even when what you actually want to do is write erotica).

Second, if Deus' grand plan isn't going to actually go anywhere, why spend so much time on it? As the thread title makes clear, Grrlpower also has a tendency to run backstory and/or setting lore instead of actual story. This is probably a product of it not really having a story beyond Sydney's initial recruitment arc, but as a result the plot isn't a line so much as a snarled tangled of aborted threads.

Grrl Powah is the Wandering Inn with pictures!

[Dragonus45]

Grrl Powah is the Wandering Inn with pictures!

Those are fighting words right there.

[Keltest]

And this is exactly why he has a trade offer that the in-comics US simple will not be able to refuse - he is making himself too useful to depose. Despite all the risks with leaving him unchecked, whichever global superpower takes his offer first, will have a serious advantage over the others. If for example US decided to move against Deus, another global superpower would back him up to get that shielding tech among other things Deus has for trade. Letting Maxima and by extension the US government know about the secret behind superpowers is also part of that. Getting details on that will most likely be more important than those futuristic fighter jets with shielding. Quite many countries would let Dues do whatever in Africa just to get their hands on the know-how of eventually making superheroes.

There are some interesting examples in history where a small country can leverage the feud between much bigger countries to its own advantage. For obvious reasons I will not discuss those here.

Well thats what I mean when I say that he's starting to agitate people who can afford to act somewhat arbitrarily. The US CAN refuse it. It would be illogical to do so, but the leadership has the capacity and wiggle room to act illogically without crashing their country. So Deus cant actually be sure what they'll do.