Expanded Spell List for the older Sorcerers?

[werescythe]

I was just wondering if anyone here has found any good lists of spell lists for the older Sorcerer Subclasses, that currently don't have any in comparison to the two sorcerer subclasses we received in TCoE?

[Sparky McDibben]

Dungeon Dudes did a decent video on it. Should able to find the useful parts with judicious scrolling.

[Kane0]

Yes there were a few threads on it a while back, a good search should dig them up. The draconic lists got extra attention IIRC.

Edit: Found some
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638704
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638863
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584509

[werescythe]

Dungeon Dudes did a decent video on it. Should able to find the useful parts with judicious scrolling.

I do like their video on it, I just wish I could find a wriiten down, digital version of their suggestions.

[Sparky McDibben]

I do like their video on it, I just wish I could find a wriiten down, digital version of their suggestions.

"Be the change you want to see in the world."

- Batman

:) Sorry, friend. Wish I could be more help on that!

[werescythe]

"Be the change you want to see in the world."

- Batman

:) Sorry, friend. Wish I could be more help on that!

Yeah, I kind of figured. Lol. I have thought about sitting down and transcribing their ideas, but the time tragically escapes me.

[strangebloke]

You've asked me this before!

Draconic
1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Wild
1st - Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Chaos Bolt
3rd - Nathair's Trickery, Crown of Madness
5th - Enemies Abound, Summon Fey
7th - Charm Monster, Confusion
9th - Seeming, Animate Objects

Storm
1st - Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
3rd - Shatter, Gust of Wind
5th - Sleet Storm, Lightning Bolt
7th - Ice Storm, Storm Sphere
9th - Control Winds, Maelstrom

Divine Soul
pick a suitable list of cleric domain spells

Shadow
1st - Cause Fear, Bane
3rd - Shadow Blade, Blindness
5th - Fear, Bestow Curse
7th - Shadow of Moil, Greater Invisibility
9th - Enervation, Dream

[Foolwise]

Be mindful that all Sorcerers get two class features at 1st level and the expanded spell lists for the Tasha's Sorcs count as one of their two features. So if you were to bring expanded lists to the other subclasses, you would also need to eliminate one of their current features to maintain the balance.

[Kane0]

Be mindful that all Sorcerers get two class features at 1st level and the expanded spell lists for the Tasha's Sorcs count as one of their two features. So if you were to bring expanded lists to the other subclasses, you would also need to eliminate one of their current features to maintain the balance.

In the case of Draconic one of those features being basically free Mage Armor and some HP ala false life or Aid

[stoutstien]

Honestly I just let them pick whatever they want off the wizard list.

The PHB option have some pretty meh features at low levels so no big worry there. XGtE is more of a coin flip but still won't reach the impact the newer ones have.

[Monster Manuel]

I love the idea of revising spell lists for the old sorcerer subclasses, but I see a fundamental problem with the practicality of it ever happening "officially" as opposed to a homebrew-ey solution. We have to look at it from the standpoint of a particular product that WoTC needs to sell, and not the game as a whole.

Essentially, they can't assume that any resources are available to the player outside of the book the subclass is from.

I mean, they COULD, but they recognize that errata-ing an existing subclass such that features of that class are unusable unless you purchase this additional supplement for 49.95 is predatory marketing, and kind of a crappy move.

So, in order for this to work, the additional spells for the PHB subclasses have to be limited to PHB spells. Subclasses from Xanathar's can pull from PHB and Xanathar's lists. Etc. They do this with the Tasha's spell lists, the only options on the Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind lists are either PHB spells, or are from Tasha's...nothing from Xanathar's.

So, this makes the exercise that much harder. I adore Strangebloke's Draconic Sorcerer list posted upthread, it elegantly sidesteps the tricky question of how to account for different dragons' elemental affinities, and it's spot-on with the draconic thematic elements. But it uses Dragon's Breath from Xanathar's and Draconic Spirit from Fizban's. Absorb Elements and Elemental Bane are sort of a gray area, since they are originally from the free Elemental Evil supplement, but were reprinted in Xanathar's. I expect we could get around these with an asterisk-ed "these spells are described in the free supplements Elemental Evil Player's companion available at www.etc". But it would be hard to use the list "officially", when it relies on these external sources.

Building a "playable" Draconic list we would have to limit it to just spells in the PHB and arguably the EE ones. We could replace Dragon's Breath with See Invisible, to mimic the dragon's blindsight ability (this makes me sad to see, but would be legal). The 5th level one is harder, but maybe if we opened up the list to allow for spells from outside the conventional Sorcerer list, we might use the Paladin's Circle of Power to emulate a dragon's lair effects/legendary resistance?

None of this matters in a home game, where we know what resources we have access to and can build bespoke lists that use the best options available, but if we were ever to see something like this from WotC, it will have to take this into account.

[Psyren]

You've asked me this before!

Draconic
1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Wild
1st - Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Chaos Bolt
3rd - Nathair's Trickery, Crown of Madness
5th - Enemies Abound, Summon Fey
7th - Charm Monster, Confusion
9th - Seeming, Animate Objects

Storm
1st - Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
3rd - Shatter, Gust of Wind
5th - Sleet Storm, Lightning Bolt
7th - Ice Storm, Storm Sphere
9th - Control Winds, Maelstrom

Divine Soul
pick a suitable list of cleric domain spells

Shadow
1st - Cause Fear, Bane
3rd - Shadow Blade, Blindness
5th - Fear, Bestow Curse
7th - Shadow of Moil, Greater Invisibility
9th - Enervation, Dream

*bookmarks*

So, in order for this to work, the additional spells for the PHB subclasses have to be limited to PHB spells. Subclasses from Xanathar's can pull from PHB and Xanathar's lists. Etc. They do this with the Tasha's spell lists, the only options on the Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind lists are either PHB spells, or are from Tasha's...nothing from Xanathar's.

So, this makes the exercise that much harder. I adore Strangebloke's Draconic Sorcerer list posted upthread, it elegantly sidesteps the tricky question of how to account for different dragons' elemental affinities, and it's spot-on with the draconic thematic elements. But it uses Dragon's Breath from Xanathar's and Draconic Spirit from Fizban's. Absorb Elements and Elemental Bane are sort of a gray area, since they are originally from the free Elemental Evil supplement, but were reprinted in Xanathar's. I expect we could get around these with an asterisk-ed "these spells are described in the free supplements Elemental Evil Player's companion available at www.etc". But it would be hard to use the list "officially", when it relies on these external sources.

I think this is a valid concern - especially when you consider AL, which carries the "PHB + 1" rule. Though keep in mind we're also considering a hypothetical future 5.5e in which WotC revises these subclasses, so they could add some of these spells to core as well, which would settle the problem neatly.

I would make every expanded list with core spells, but then add in an asterisk that says something like "if your DM lets you choose spells from XGtE, consider swapping X core spell for Y from that book." Or at the very least, give each of the older subclasses a swap feature that allows them to line up more or less with strangebloke's suggestions, e.g. Draconic can swap for evocations, Divine Soul can swap for cleric or domain spells etc.

[Monster Manuel]

keep in mind we're also considering a hypothetical future 5.5e in which WotC revises these subclasses, so they could add some of these spells to core as well, which would settle the problem neatly.

Oh, absolutely, yeah. I'd be shocked if we didn't see spell lists like these attached to all sorcerer subclasses in the eventual 5.5 rules, and if they do that, they can just include the best spells in the new printing of the new book. I'd like to see them include some sorcerer-specific spells that fill some of these niches for the subclasses as well.

I would make every expanded list with core spells, but then add in an asterisk that says something like "if your DM lets you choose spells from XGtE, consider swapping X core spell for Y from that book." Or at the very least, give each of the older subclasses a swap feature that allows them to line up more or less with strangebloke's suggestions, e.g. Draconic can swap for evocations, Divine Soul can swap for cleric or domain spells etc.

Agreed. Both of the Tasha's subclasses have this kind of level-up replacement rider to their granted spells, so any revisions to the existing subclasses would have to have something similar as well. This could be another way to allow for trading out for the better options from other books, without having to find a way to print or include them.

Another trick they could pull, less elegant and probably highly unlikely, is to add the spells in question to the Core Rules SRD, which means that anyone can re-use/re-print those spells, but it's a document they can easily update or revise, and anyone can access.

[strangebloke]

Be mindful that all Sorcerers get two class features at 1st level and the expanded spell lists for the Tasha's Sorcs count as one of their two features. So if you were to bring expanded lists to the other subclasses, you would also need to eliminate one of their current features to maintain the balance.

Most Sorcerer level 1 features are weak enough

I love the idea of revising spell lists for the old sorcerer subclasses, but I see a fundamental problem with the practicality of it ever happening "officially" as opposed to a homebrew-ey solution. We have to look at it from the standpoint of a particular product that WoTC needs to sell, and not the game as a whole.

Essentially, they can't assume that any resources are available to the player outside of the book the subclass is from.

I mean, they COULD, but they recognize that errata-ing an existing subclass such that features of that class are unusable unless you purchase this additional supplement for 49.95 is predatory marketing, and kind of a crappy move.

So, in order for this to work, the additional spells for the PHB subclasses have to be limited to PHB spells. Subclasses from Xanathar's can pull from PHB and Xanathar's lists. Etc. They do this with the Tasha's spell lists, the only options on the Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind lists are either PHB spells, or are from Tasha's...nothing from Xanathar's.

So, this makes the exercise that much harder. I adore Strangebloke's Draconic Sorcerer list posted upthread, it elegantly sidesteps the tricky question of how to account for different dragons' elemental affinities, and it's spot-on with the draconic thematic elements. But it uses Dragon's Breath from Xanathar's and Draconic Spirit from Fizban's. Absorb Elements and Elemental Bane are sort of a gray area, since they are originally from the free Elemental Evil supplement, but were reprinted in Xanathar's. I expect we could get around these with an asterisk-ed "these spells are described in the free supplements Elemental Evil Player's companion available at www.etc". But it would be hard to use the list "officially", when it relies on these external sources.

Building a "playable" Draconic list we would have to limit it to just spells in the PHB and arguably the EE ones. We could replace Dragon's Breath with See Invisible, to mimic the dragon's blindsight ability (this makes me sad to see, but would be legal). The 5th level one is harder, but maybe if we opened up the list to allow for spells from outside the conventional Sorcerer list, we might use the Paladin's Circle of Power to emulate a dragon's lair effects/legendary resistance?

None of this matters in a home game, where we know what resources we have access to and can build bespoke lists that use the best options available, but if we were ever to see something like this from WotC, it will have to take this into account.

I think you're completely correct, but WotC is also just kind of a mess with new releases and I've just sort of accepted never worrying about official fixes. As long as I can find homebrew that works...

[paladinn]

When sorcerers were first introduced in 3e, they were really just spontaneous-casting wizards with less flexibility but more spells/day. They also could use simple weapons, since they weren't required to be "studious." Origins/bloodlines were added in Pathfinder.

Has anyone seen a Good 5e treatment of a general "arcane sorcerer" (not wild magic) that wasn't tied to a specific origin? What sort of special features would one have? Maybe access to the entire wizard list??

[Psyren]

Origins/bloodlines were added in Pathfinder.

Technically they were added in Dragon Magazine (later Dragon Compendium) in 3.5. Still Paizo, but the idea at least predates Pathfinder by several years.

Has anyone seen a Good 5e treatment of a general "arcane sorcerer" (not wild magic) that wasn't tied to a specific origin? What sort of special features would one have? Maybe access to the entire wizard list??

I don't know about UA or third-party ones, but Clockwork Soul can be refluffed as a "wizardy" sorcerer or one that started with formal education pretty easily. You can also make it Int-based rather than Cha-based and essentially make it an entirely different form of arcanum.

[strangebloke]

Technically they were added in Dragon Magazine (later Dragon Compendium) in 3.5. Still Paizo, but the idea at least predates Pathfinder by several years.

The idea that sorcerers were draconic in nature is also really oldschool, and you see this with the flurry of X spells when they finally got around to giving sorcerers unique spells, but also all the various ways of boosting sorcerer caster level.

So, in a very literal sense, the 3.5 sorcerer is the draconic sorcerer.

[tiornys]

You've asked me this before!

Draconic
1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Alter Self
5th - Fear, Elemental Weapon
7th - Stoneskin, Elemental Bane
9th - Dominate Person, Summon Draconic Spirit

Wild
1st - Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Chaos Bolt
3rd - Nathair's Trickery, Crown of Madness
5th - Enemies Abound, Summon Fey
7th - Charm Monster, Confusion
9th - Seeming, Animate Objects

Storm
1st - Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
3rd - Shatter, Gust of Wind
5th - Sleet Storm, Lightning Bolt
7th - Ice Storm, Storm Sphere
9th - Control Winds, Maelstrom

Divine Soul
pick a suitable list of cleric domain spells

Shadow
1st - Cause Fear, Bane
3rd - Shadow Blade, Blindness
5th - Fear, Bestow Curse
7th - Shadow of Moil, Greater Invisibility
9th - Enervation, Dream

I put together similar lists a while back. For most subclasses we have a lot of overlap (not so much for Shadow). My lists; the first spell of each pair is the one I would pick if only granting one spell per level, different picks from strangebloke's lists in bold:

Draconic
1st - Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb
3rd - Dragon's Breath, Levitate
5th - Fear, Fly
7th - Stoneskin, Fire Shield
9th - Summon Draconic Spirit, Legend Lore

Wild
1st - Chaos Bolt, Dissonant Whispers
3rd - Nathair's Mischief, Crown of Madness
5th - Summon Fey, Hypnotic Pattern
7th - Confusion, Polymorph
9th - Temporal Shunt, Animate Objects

Storm
1st - Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
3rd - Gust of Wind, Rime's Binding Ice
5th - Sleet Storm, Call Lightning
7th - Storm Sphere, Ice Storm
9th - Control Winds, Destructive Wave

Shadow
1st - Cause Fear, Arms of Hadar
3rd - Blur, Invisibility
5th - Summon Shadowspawn, Hunger of Hadar
7th - Evard's Black Tentacles, Shadow of Moil
9th - Mislead, Enervation

I also did a generic list for DSS:
1st - Guiding Bolt, Heroism
3rd - Aid, Lesser Restoration
5th - Beacon of Hope, Magic Circle
7th - Freedom of Movement, Aura of Life
9th - Greater Restoration, Summon Celestial

[Kane0]

Has anyone seen a Good 5e treatment of a general "arcane sorcerer" (not wild magic) that wasn't tied to a specific origin? What sort of special features would one have? Maybe access to the entire wizard list??

I tried making one ages back and it just never felt right, but perhaps the moon sorc from the latest UA would work for you if you strip away the fluff.

[P. G. Macer]

As others have mentioned, ever since Tasha’s made Sorcerer Bloodline Spells official, this has been a topic that has come up semi-frequently My own take is thus:

Draconic Bloodline (All PHB bloodlines except green)
1st: Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb*
3rd: Darkvision, Dragon’s Breath
5th: Fear, Incite Greed
4th: Charm Monster, Elemental Bane
9th: Legend Lore, Summon Draconic Spirit
*Does not require a material component when the spell’s damage type matches the dragon’s damage type.

Green Draconic Bloodline
1st: Cause Fear, Ray of Sickness
3rd: Dragon’s Breath, Protection from Poison
5th: Fear, Stinking Cloud
7th: Charm Monster, Grasping Vine
9th: Cloudkill, Summon Draconic Spirit

I also expanded the concept to include the gem dragons and moonstone dragon in Fizban’s

Spoiler: Expanded Draconic Bloodline Spells

Show

Amethyst Draconic Bloodline
1st: Magic Missile, Magnify Gravity
3rd: Alter Self, Spiritual Weapon
5th: Pulse Wave, Sending
7th: Freedom of Movement, Gravity Sinkhole
9th: Bigby’s Hand, Summon Draconic Spirit

Crystal Draconic Bloodline
1st: Command, Guiding Bolt
3rd: Lesser Restoration, Moonbeam
5th: Blinding Smite, Hypnotic Pattern
7th: Aura of Life, Divination
9th: Greater Restoration, Wall of Light

Emerald Draconic Bloodline
1st: Dissonant Whispers, Silent Image
3rd: Mind Spike, Tasha’s Mind Whip
5th: Dispel Magic, Major Image
7th: Phantasmal Killer, Raulothim’s Psychic Lance
9th: Summon Draconic Spirit, Synaptic Static

Moonstone Draconic Bloodline
1st: Faerie Fire, Guiding Bolt
3rd: Calm Emotions, Moonbeam
5th: Dispel Magic, Revivify*
7th: Aura of Purity, Conjure Woodland Beings
9th: Dawn, Dream
*Does not require a material component

Sapphire Draconic Bloodline
1st: Chromatic Orb*, Tenser’s Floating Disk
3rd:Hold Person, Shatter
5th: Meld into Stone, Thunder Step
7th: Banishment, Elemental Bane
9th: Destructive Wave, Summon Draconic Spirit
*Does not require a material component when dealing thunder damage

Topaz Draconic Bloodline
1st: Bane, Create or Destroy Water
3rd: Darkvision, Wither and Bloom
5th: Feign Death, Vampiric Touch
7th: Control Water, Fabricate
9th: Antilife Shell, Enervation

Wild Magic
1st: Chaos Bolt, Color Spray
3rd: Mirror Image, Nystul’s Magic Aura
5th: Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern
7th: Confusion, Polymorph
9th: Animate Objects, Synaptic Static

Storm
1st: Fog Cloud, Thunderwave
3rd: Shatter, Warding Wind
5th: Call Lightning, Wind Wall
7th: Ice Storm, Storm Sphere
9th: Control Winds, Destructive Wave

I also did a separate spell list for each Divine Soul Alignment choice, for which the first 1st-level spell is always the default one given via Divine Magic:

Spoiler: Divine Soul Alignments

Show

Divine Soul: Good
1st: Cure Wounds via Divine Magic, Healing Word
3rd:Healing Spirit, Lesser Restoration
5th: Aura of Vitality, Daylight
7th: Aura of Life, Aura of Purity
9th: Dawn, Summon Celestial

DS: Evil
1st: Inflict Wounds via Divine Magic, Cause Fear
3rd: Darkness, Ray of Enfeeblement
5th: Animate Dead, Summon Undead
7th: Shadow of Moil, Summon Greater Demon
9th: Danse Macabre, Infernal Calling

DS: Neutrality
1st: Protection from Evil and Good via Divine Magic, Speak with Animals
3rd: Protection from Poison, Warding Bond
5th: Dispel Magic, Summon Fey
7th: Banishment, Conjure Woodland Beings
9th: Dispel Evil and Good, Hallow

DS: Law
1st: Bless via Divine Magic, Command
3rd: Calm Emotions, Zone of Truth
5th: Intellect Fortress, Remove Curse
7th: Fabricate, Summon Construct
9th: Geas, Infernal Calling

DS: Chaos
1st: Bane via Divine Magic, Chaos Bolt
3rd: Blur, Crown of Madness
5th: Blink, Summon Lesser Demons
7th: Confusion, Freedom of Movement
9th: Mislead, Seeming

Shadow Magic
1st: Inflict Wounds, Silent Image
3rd: Darkness via Eyes of the Dark, Pass without Trace
5th: Feign Death, Summon Shadowspawn
7th: Blight, Shadow of Moil
9th: Danse Macabre, Negative Energy Flood

I also did one for the unofficial Pyromancer sorcerous origin from Plane Shift: Kaladesh:
1st: Burning Hands, Hellish Rebuke,
3rd: Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray
5th: Ashardalon’s Stride, Fireball
7th: Fire Shield, Wall of Fire
9th: Flame Strike, Immolation

Whew!

[Aids0nBlades]

Be mindful that all Sorcerers get two class features at 1st level and the expanded spell lists for the Tasha's Sorcs count as one of their two features. So if you were to bring expanded lists to the other subclasses, you would also need to eliminate one of their current features to maintain the balance.

Yeah, you're right! The Aberrant Mind at level 1 gets telepathy, 2 spells now, and 8 more later; the Storm Sorcerer can use their bonus action to fly 10 feet after casting a leveled spell, and they learn primordial. This is very balanced and fair.

[sambojin]

There's two ways I'm thinking of doing it, and one that I've tried and works great. Try one of the below, but honestly, just choose #3. It fixes everything.

#1: you know two extra lvl1 Sorc spells at lvl1. Then, at lvl3, pick a Land druid terrain. You know the bonus spells of that terrain.

#2: Pick two druid spells at lvl1 and every two Sorcerer levels after this up to level 9. You have to have slots to be able to cast spells of that level. You now know those spells.

#3(tried, works well): If you're not a clockwork or aberrant sorcerer, you have two floating spell preparations per day. They can be of any spell on the sorcerer list up to the highest level of sorcerer spell you can cast. You can change these spells each long rest.
(At lvl10 you have 3 floating spell preparations each long rest).

#1, just because the material is there in the PHB, and allows you to pseudo-theme yourself ok'ish. It's certainly not OP, and you could add Circle of Wildfire spells on there as well if you want. #2, because it makes Sorcerers very different from every other spell caster, gives them a few summons, and opens up heaps of metamagic options for those spells. You really can do what Wizards/ Druids/ Clerics can't. Possibly a bit OP. #3, simply works really well. Those two extra floating preparation slots allow you to try things out, change a fair bit in spell loadout throughout different parts of a campaign, and can give you a fair bit of an options/power edge over other casters in what you know/prepare each day and the metamagic synergies you can use.

I think #2 would be really fun, and give Sorcs a really good identity (even with divine souls having access to 3 spell lists) compared to wizards (you do lots of very specific magic that they don't and can't, but it adds to cherry-picking the best spells too much. There's nothing saying you don't know half the good lvl2/3 druid spells by lvl9 there, but that's intended), but #3 works fine and essentially "fixes" Sorcs in pretty much every way they need to be fixed (and it's really simple, while offering heaps of options that you're not trapped into for a player. It's really newbie friendly, while being great for more experienced players as well).

Since I really like lvl10/11 mini-capstones for classes, #3 gives three floating spell preparations at lvl10, so they're really powerful in most published content (and work really well in later tiers as well). An extra metamagic and an extra floating prep looks better, and feels stronger, because it is. It's a level 10 mini-capstone! That's incredible flexibility compared to the standard Sorc. #2 might be too OP, but #3 "just works", while giving Sorcs a nice identity and balance compared to other full casters. Theme/ bloodline/ magic-style yourself as you want, but retain some flexibility in the matter. You can font slots down, font slots up, metamagic well no matter which spells/metas you've picked, and be relevant in all parts and styles of a campaign, just like every other full caster can. #3 fixes everything.

Just call it "Harness your Inner Power" or "Control your Destiny" or something.

(Strangely enough, even the #3 "fixed" Sorc isn't all that better for dipping than a Wiz/ Cleric/Warlock would be for spell/cantrip++. Proficient in Constitution saves, yes, but otherwise not that great. Better than it was, but simply on par with the big-bads. I can't even see too many PalaSorc problems. It actually working well with EKs and ATs isn't actually a bad thing either)

[Sindal]

I only give the retroactive subclasses spell domains 1 extra spell instead of 2 whenever I'm dming.

I find its enough of a boost
(Then again I give them extra meta magics and a unique cantrip too)

[sambojin]

Yeah, 5-10 extra sorc-domain spells between lvl1-9 is "stronger" at early levels. But it always opens the question of "I don't think you chose right, that's not like I want my character to be at all! I didn't even *want* that! That's not MY Sorcerer!".
(It even makes it easy on DMs, where "they're not MY dragons/ looney+tunes/ whatever bloodline/ lvl1 prototag Sorc thingo they've allowed).

So the "Choose Your Destiny" 2*Sorc spell preps at lvl1 (3 at lvl10!) fixes everything. It does put the onus upon the player. Very intentionally, but somehow and somewhat weakly (yet with strong options and variations for the class, and any subclass of it, in every way).

You could actually even give it to Clockwork/Aberrant Sorcerers, and they'd barely notice the difference. But they wouldn't, they have +10 spells known already, that they can change into from multiple class's lists. But it's still a perfect buff to the class before that BS, which does exactly what it should.

Any number of extra known spells someone else chose only adds to the debate. +2lvl1/+3lvl10 prepared ones simply fixes the class entirely. Hell, make it +4 at lvl20, to really capstone the class at both points. It's not a big thing, it just works really well.

Sorcs weren't ever quite "mega full casters" before. Not a wizard. Not a druid. Barely even a slotty cleric. Or, at least, you'd have to plan for it, several levels in advance for it to be so. This simply eases the transition to them on being pretty damn good on that, to do what other full casters can. +2/+3 Pseudo-full list, full slot, lvl+1 known caster, with gimmicks (that they can backfill towards on certain spells "known" per day, if necessary, so they can really use those meta or font abilities).

They're a really nice class to play like this. They're kinda crap on published content otherwise, unless you choose clock/borange.

Bard gets inspiration/ expertise/ magical secrets and ribbons, warlock gets patrons/ invocations/ pacts and ribbons. Sorc gets +2-3-4 knowns/ font/ metas, and whatever ribbons their bloodline gave them. Seems fair on Charisma known casters. I'd rather random Inspiration bollocks and expertise and cherry-spells at lvl10 usually, but decent spells each day for a Sorc to meta sort-of evens it out.

Plus, it makes them a really interesting class to play, from lvl1, all the way to lvl20 👍

[Yakk]

Mine:

Draconic Sorcerer
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st chromatic orb*
3rd dragon's breath*
5th fear, elemental weapon*
7th elemental bane*
9th dominate person
* Unless you get this spell from another source, the damage you choose must match your Dragon Ancestry Damage Type. If the spell does not usually permit that kind of damage, you can still do that kind of damage.

Storm Sorcerer
Tempestuous Magic (Enhancement)
You can fly 10’ as a bonus action even if you don’t cast a spell. This movement does not provoke if you do it immediately before or after casting a spell using a spell slot of 1st level or above.
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Fog Cloud
3rd Gust of Wind
5th Call Lightning, Sleet Storm
7th Conjure Minor Elementals*
9th Conjure Elemental**
*Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only smoke mephits, steam mephits, ice mephits, or dust mephits with it.
**Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only air elementals with it.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Wild Magic Surge (Enhancement)
Both you or the DM can choose to roll the d20 to produce a wild magic surge. If there is a wild magic surge, your tides of chaos feature recharges and you regain 1 sorcery point..

Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Chaos Bolt
3rd Mirror Image
5th Hypnotic Pattern
7th Confusion
9th Maelstrom

Shadow Sorcerer
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Disguise Self
3rd Shadow Blade
5th Gaseous Form
7th Shadow of Moil
9th Danse Macabre

Divine Soul Sorcerer
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
Pick one Cleric Domain. You can choose 1 of their Domain Spells choose 1 of them per spell level as a bonus spell known, up to 5th level spells at 9th level.

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When I restricted spells on this list, I threw in a bonus one.

[sambojin]

Wow. 1DnD just kinda gave Bards what I suggested for Sorcs (but better) as magical secrets. So that's cool. Or not. I'm actually a little worried for any fix that wotc thinks is a good idea as well (especially when Bards we're fine as-is. Although 1DnD Sorcs should have similar spells known rules, where you can change them on a daily basis anyway. So, problem hopefully solved).

[sethdmichaels]

A couple I made:

STORM
1st
fog cloud, thunderwave
3rd
gust of wind, shatter
5th
sleet storm, wind wall
7th
ice storm, storm sphere
9th
control winds, destructive wave


SHADOW
1st
sleep, cause fear
3rd
darkness (as provided already), pass without trace
5th
fear, hunger of hadar
7th
shadow of moil, confusion
9th
enervation, mislead

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread necromancy (a few posts up).