Monster Mash II: Scary Monsters!

[pabelfly]

Yeah, I feel like I dropped the ball with this round's theme. Would you participate in a next round with another theme with more options?

I would. I like Monster Mash.

grabby ones

Grabbing and constricting could be fun, it's a clear theme but has a lot of room there.

[loky1109]

My main issues with Monster Mash is bad knowledge of revised LA.

If talk about theme - Track is my choice.

[Beni-Kujaku]

My main issues with Monster Mash is bad knowledge of revised LA.

If talk about theme - Track is my choice.

The archive thread (link at the beginning of the last LA-thread) summarizes the LA of all currently reviewed monsters. I've also started listing all reviewed monsters with their revised LA‚ ability scores‚ types and notable abilities‚ but it's kind of a gargantuan task so don't expect it to be useable before at least a few months.

[ciopo]

About contest houserules, specifically this bullet point

• Monsters with racial hit dice may gain an additional hit die instead of taking a character level. This functions as advancing a monster this way would under other circumstances. You cannot advance any monster beyond the maximum number of racial hit dice noted in its Advancement entry.

Does this mean also trigger the "size increase" that some monster advancement entry has?

Also, it is my understanding that no racial hit die can be taken after a class level is taken, correct? IF we want to advance the racial hit die, we must do it before taking any class

Very relevant for grabby purposes! :D

[Beni-Kujaku]

About contest houserules, specifically this bullet point

• Monsters with racial hit dice may gain an additional hit die instead of taking a character level. This functions as advancing a monster this way would under other circumstances. You cannot advance any monster beyond the maximum number of racial hit dice noted in its Advancement entry.

Does this mean also trigger the "size increase" that some monster advancement entry has?

Also, it is my understanding that no racial hit die can be taken after a class level is taken, correct? IF we want to advance the racial hit die, we must do it before taking any class

Very relevant for grabby purposes! :D

It does indeed trigger the size increase of a monster, including the stats adjustments corresponding to a size increase. In the frame of that competition, you are allowed to take a new racial hit die at any moment you could take a new class level, including after having taken other class levels. Draconomicon (p142) explictly states this as not only possible, but mandatory for dragons, and we will assume it is similar for other species (even though it doesn't make much sense for a Construct or Undead to gain RHD this way). If you are building a dragon, follow the rules in Draconomicon for gaining RHD (you automatically gain +1 NA for each additional RHD, and you gain an age category every three RHD). Of course, you can choose to not advance your racial hit dice at all, everything is in your hand.

Am I right in assuming this question counts as a vote for the grappling theme?

[ciopo]

I had voted for grabby! :)

I don't remembe rwhere I had read you can't adance HD after taking class levels, probably the urpriest mega guide on improving monsters.

That guide might be worth a permanent link.

The thing about dragons is a little weird, are they always +1 age per 3 HD increase?? That sounds so little I'm probably misunderstanding something

Uh, they do advange every 3 HD, I never noticed!

[Beni-Kujaku]

I had voted for grabby! :)

I don't remembe rwhere I had read you can't adance HD after taking class levels, probably the urpriest mega guide on improving monsters.

That guide might be worth a permanent link.

The thing about dragons is a little weird, are they always +1 age per 3 HD increase?? That sounds so little I'm probably misunderstanding something

I have not seen anything about that in Urpriest's handbook, but it's often mentioned so maybe it really is written somewhere. In any case, for this competition specifically, you can advance at any time.

About the dragon age category, we're talking about true dragons, not any creature with the Dragon type. Remember that dragons age differently from any other race. Instead of having four age categories during which they become progressively wiser but physically weaker, they have 12 of them (or thirteen if you count Twilight), and continuously become both stronger and smarter as they age. The age categories are Wyrmling, Very Young, Young, Juvenile, Young Adult, Adult, Mature Adult, Old, Very Old, Ancient, Wyrm, and Great Wyrm. For example, a gold dragon starts as a Wyrmling with 8 Racial HD. When it reaches 11 RHD, it becomes Very Young, and its stats increase (note that even though it becomes Medium, it doesn't gain the regular stats from a size increase, the stats it gains are specific to its species). When it reaches 14 RHD, it becomes Young, and so on and so forth until it reaches Great Wyrm status at 41 RHD (obviously class levels do not increase its age category, only racial hit dice, since the RHD increase represent the dragon aging).

Also, when a dragon has spent 900 to 3200 years as a Great Wyrm (depending on its color, Cha*100 for Metallic, Cha*50 for Chromatic, don't know about Gems or other dragons), it starts finally dying of old age. That's called Twilight, and the dragon loses 1 point of constitution every year, and has to make a DC 20 Constitution check at its birthday or die permanently. That's the moment where it thinks about its legacy, decides to go with a flash, or decides to become a dracolich or a dragon ascendant to extend its life.

[ciopo]

Yeah i was misremembering their advancing age, for some reason I had it in mind it was more HD between each category. and not just 3. I had forgotten that the starting HD for wyrmlings is between 3 and 10 depending on the color

I got a generic contest question : how do we go about creatures that don't have an INT score? plants and oozes and vermins and whatnot.

Because that makes them fairly "less playable", given they don't get feat or skill points

[Beni-Kujaku]

I got a generic contest question : how do we go about creatures that don't have an INT score? plants and oozes and vermins and whatnot.

Because that makes them fairly "less playable", given they don't get feat or skill points

First post of the thread : mindless creatures are considered to have a base Int score of 3‚ but retain their mind-affecting immunity if they have it.

[ciopo]

Oh it's in the clarification spoiler, I swear I remembered having read that, but then not re-finding it.

I am scatterbrained at times, sorry

[loky1109]

I need one more day.

[loky1109]

Spoiler: Judging criteria

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Originality. Starting from 3. Highly subjective category. Are your classes, feats, combos, and tricks obvious and expected? Did I see something similar before? Or were you able to surprise me?

Power. Starting from 0. Before you built your build it was able to do nothing. With every level, every feat, ability and spell it was starting to do more. I'll be evaluating not only raw power, but utility, survivability, flexibility, and other parameters.

Elegance. Starting from 5. Till you place the first brick in your build there were zero mistakes. Guaranteed. Each mistake which I can find will take away some part of this five.

Monstrosity. Starting from 0, for obvious reasons. It's my first time judging MM, so I'll go with chair recommendations.

Monstrosity measures how necessary the entry’s monster race was to the submission. We want to build monstrous adventurers here, not standard Iron Chef builds with a few racial hit dice at the start. Builds which could not function without the monstrous features of their race earn high Monstrosity scores, while builds which could work on any PC race with no changes will take Monstrosity penalties. Builds using non-monstrous races will also take penalties to Monstrosity. For rounds with specific restrictions on the monster race, this category will also include making good use of the mandatory component.

Spoiler: Shakeira (14)

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Originality (3.5). Sorcerer/Monk dip with Ascetic Mage is something I saw so many times...
Cloaked Dancer is seen for the first time.
Tattooed Monk I heard is well known, but I saw him for the first time.
Feral yowler isn't a monster the first comes to mind. Wendigo in the other hand can't surprise me, I built it in regular IC. )))
At the end of day I give you 3.5.

Power (3.5). Well, you are good in fear. Many options, with great DCs. But it all doesn't work against bugs, oozes and paladins. Bad. (+0.75)
Very good defenses: immunes, fast healing, regeneration, good AC and saves, big amount of hp. (+1)
Your offense on the other hand is... weak. Yeah, your bite is the best bite in the game, but it's just one single bite. Your monk's attacks, if you can (see Elegance), aren't great, too. (+0.25)
You are very good at sneaking. Your 120 perfect fly is a dream! (+1)
Your out of fight options are well, too. With your stats you have good skills even untrained. At least social. Cloaked dancer gives you some options, too. (+0.5)

Elegance (3.5). You can operate totally without items, I like it.
I don't like when it isn't clear when you get your middle-age. Looking at the skills I think it was before 1st HD. It's nonsense. I understand why you did it, but I should punish you (-0.75).
LE Wendigo. Ok, I overlooked it. But I think you need something stronger than "power of friendship".
Wendigo has only Bite attacks. Nothing more. So I don't understand what flurry of blows you are talking about (-0.5).
You can't cast spells with your body shape. You need a Surrogate Spellcasting feat from Savage Species (-0.25).
Everything else looks okay.

Monstrosity (3.25).
You are certainly scary. You catch the theme (+1).
You use racial ability Yowl of fear, but it's only one of your five methods to scare people. It's still your main fear source (+0.75).
Wendigo on the other hand is very on topic, but mechanically gives you not so much. Don't get me wrong, it gives you many things, but all aren't about fear (+0.25).
Stats from race and template play a significant role in your entry (+0.75).
Even with worse numbers this build can work without being Wendigo Feral yowler. Not even closer so good, but work (+0.5).

Add +0.25 after dispute.

Spoiler: Dreadful Light (12.5)

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Originality (4.5). Trumpet Archon Dread Witch. It isn't an expected combination! I like the LG fearbringer celestial idea! Cool!
Vow of Poverty. It comes in comps from time to time. Can't say it is overused, but nothing surprising.
Dread Witch itself should be expected with this theme, but I totally forgot this PrC.
I give you 4.5 here.

Power (5). Fear. Oh yeah! You can in fear (+1)!
Elephant in the room. 9th level spells (+1).
Very good skills (+1).
Fly, teleport, FoM. Good. (+1).
Your defenses. Good AC and saves. Average hp. SR and DR. Not the best, but very good (+0.75).
Your offense power (outside spells). Bad, but at least something (+0.25).

Elegance (1). Another elephant. Extra Spell. You can't get spells outside your spell list. SO you can't qualify in Dread Witch (-2), and you take unacceptable feats thrice (-1, should be -1.5, but -0.5 went into -2 for Dread Witch).
I don't like Trumpet Archon without Trumpet. It's Special Attack, you can't ignore it. It's a gift from God! And you can't use or even own because of VoP (-0.5).
+11 stats from miracle. Yeah, you can cast it yourself, but it still is 55000 XP. It's very much! And RAW Miracle can't do this, only Wish can (-0.5).

I strongly dislike that you are unplayable till ECL 16 (-0.5).

UotSI (1.5). Well. You are scary. Dread Witch is enough (+1).
You use your spellcasting to scare people (evil people!), but it isn't something unique and even more it isn't enough (you need spells from other spell lists) (+0.25).
Stats yes, but here in contrast to Shakeira stats aren't essential (+0.25).
I totally can see this entry without Trumpet Archon, and it even can be better (+0).

Add +0.5 after dispute.

Table.

Name	Alignment / Race	Class Levels	Chef	loky1109	Total	Place
Shakeira, ghastly dancedog	LE Wendigo Feral yowler	Sorcerer 2/Monk 1/Cloaked Dancer 5/Tattooed Monk 3		14	14	1st
Dreadful Light	LG Trumpet Archon	Dread Witch 4		12.5	12.5	2nd

Disputes are welcome!

Please somebody check my math. Here 3:00 AM now and I'm not sure I summed all right. )

[Beni-Kujaku]

Thank you loky1109! Congratulations to ciopo for his entries! Since there is only one chef‚ you don't have to send me the disputes‚ just post them in here.
If anybody has other things they want to say or want to vote for the next round‚ please do!


(The math seems right‚ except the Elegance value for the archon‚ who should be 0.5 instead of 1 (since some things are illegal‚ you can go below 1). If instead you're considering Extra Spell as simply strongly inelegant but not illegal‚ then it goes up to 1)

[loky1109]

Congratulations to ciopo for his entries!

I know! I know!

(The math seems right‚ except the Elegance value for the archon‚ who should be 0.5 instead of 1 (since some things are illegal‚ you can go below 1). If instead you're considering Extra Spell as simply strongly inelegant but not illegal‚ then it goes up to 1)

No, this is correct. I think Extra Spell is illegal, but I understand divisiveness of this point of view.

[ciopo]

Thank you for judging :), I'll be going more stream of consciousness than actual thought out dispute, because it's me and me anyway

Shakeira:

I don't like when it isn't clear when you get your middle-age. Looking at the skills I think it was before 1st HD. It's nonsense. I understand why you did it, but I should punish you (-0.75).

I don't like it either, but delaying frightful presence was so frustating! I did comment on it in the "possible controversies" section tho

Wendigo has only Bite attacks. Nothing more. So I don't understand what flurry of blows you are talking about (-0.5).

I don't understand either, Wendigo doesn't make incorporeal, monk gives improved unarmed strike and flurry of blow, so Shakeira has iteratives with unarmed strike, plus bite as secondary, no?

You can't cast spells with your body shape. You need a Surrogate Spellcasting feat from Savage Species (-0.25).

Ah, I didn't know that was a thing, I assumed native intelligence > 10 = can learn languages at first RHD = can cast spells. Good to keep in mind for future comps. Was that perhabs changed from 3.0 to 3.5? I don't know if surrogate spellcasting got "deprecated" as not needed anymore

Dreadful light:

Another elephant. Extra Spell. You can't get spells outside your spell list. SO you can't qualify in Dread Witch (-2), and you take unacceptable feats thrice (-1, should be -1.5, but -0.5 went into -2 for Dread Witch).

Well obviously I disagree :), and if I read the feat, it doesn't make obvious if you can or can't learn spell from outside your list. Of course, that's like the very first thing you're going to ask your GM. Some might allow it, some might not. That it's definetively 100% not I would disagree with, because the feat itself doesn't say so. It even gives the example of wizard using it to learn a spell they normally wouldn't be able to research. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, as I consider the ruling that "no, you can only learn from your class list" perfectly valid. But it's a ruling, not the rules, if that difference makes sense, yeah?

I don't like Trumpet Archon without Trumpet. It's Special Attack, you can't ignore it. It's a gift from God! And you can't use or even own because of VoP (-0.5).

I don't either! I could have simply picked up only word of creation and called it a day. This is just my bias : on every comp here I am favoring picking VoP, even if it sucks, because of the bias there seems to be against even mentioning the most generic items. I just like doing math right, and I get sad and twitchy when I write down some numbers and I have to decide if I should write down the actual number we are expecting to have in gameplay (higher ability scores (only enhancement, no tomes, generally), resistance bonus to saves) or write down "wrong/false" numbers as if I should get a cookie for pretending to play naked!

+11 stats from miracle. Yeah, you can cast it yourself, but it still is 55000 XP. It's very much! And RAW Miracle can't do this, only Wish can (-0.5).

Well if you'd rather I use gate, I can just do that :D With the +3 from dread witch we have just enough CL for calling in the solars :D ( gate gains the good descriptor when calling in good creatures :)

I strongly dislike that you are unplayable till ECL 16 (-0.5).

I understand your point, Tho i would caution against setting the precedence that high RHD = bad for this specific competition. As you said this would work just as well with a normal character. Hell it would even be more elegant since I could simply gain scare with divine magician if I wanted to make a divine dread witch. It's perfectly fine to dislike that we're umplayable until high ECL, but I just want to comment on that it's a natural conseguence of picking a monster, and I feel that shouldn't get discouraged.

UotSI (1.5). Well. You are scary. Dread Witch is enough (+1).
You use your spellcasting to scare people (evil people!), but it isn't something unique and even more it isn't enough (you need spells from other spell lists) (+0.25).
Stats yes, but here in contrast to Shakeira stats aren't essential (+0.25).
I totally can see this entry without Trumpet Archon, and it even can be better (+0).

my main draw to trumpet archon here was having strong justification for actualyl being allowed to use exalted spells/content. That dread witch can be done with "just any caster" is of conseguence that it's the "best" way to fear, not much we can do about it if we want to fear the immunes

[loky1109]

Thank you for judging

You are welcome!

I like to judge. I learn new doing it.

Spoiler: Shakeira (+0.25)

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I did comment on it in the "possible controversies" section tho

My original intention was to judge your "Bard 1/Battledancer 1/Cloaked Dancer 5/Siren 4" version as separate build, but I ran out of juice. So I just ignore it after first reading.

I don't understand either, Wendigo doesn't make incorporeal, monk gives improved unarmed strike and flurry of blow, so Shakeira has iteratives with unarmed strike, plus bite as secondary, no?

No.

Attacks: A wendigo’s bite is its sole attack.

I read this as absolutely sole, all other attacks are given up.

It is unique wording, I didn't see same anywhere more, so I think it did with the reason.

Ah, I didn't know that was a thing, I assumed native intelligence > 10 = can learn languages at first RHD = can cast spells.

Well, "can learn languages" isn't equal to "can speak languages good enough to pronounce Verbal components", plus Somatic components is a thing.

Was that perhabs changed from 3.0 to 3.5?

This feat isn't updated and SS is almost 3.5 book. If somebody proof me I'm wrong... Well, I'll be very glad, it'll dive me something I could use in VC. )))
Spells entry in MM's Glossary isn't clear about in. It can be only about creatures with innate spellcasting.

But I think you can be right. Remove this penalty. +0.25

Spoiler: Dreadful light (+0.5)

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Well obviously I disagree... But it's a ruling, not the rules, if that difference makes sense, yeah?

Is FAQ enough rules for you?

Can the warmage (CAr) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?
No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

I don't either! I could have simply picked up only word of creation and called it a day. This is just my bias : on every comp here I am favoring picking VoP, even if it sucks, because of the bias there seems to be against even mentioning the most generic items. I just like doing math right, and I get sad and twitchy when I write down some numbers and I have to decide if I should write down the actual number we are expecting to have in gameplay (higher ability scores (only enhancement, no tomes, generally), resistance bonus to saves) or write down "wrong/false" numbers as if I should get a cookie for pretending to play naked!

I see your point and I like VoP, too, but here VoP collide with monster chassis. Sorry.

Well if you'd rather I use gate, I can just do that :D With the +3 from dread witch we have just enough CL for calling in the solars :D ( gate gains the good descriptor when calling in good creatures :)

Okay. Decrease penalty to -0.25 for dependence on some outside help. +0.25

It's perfectly fine to dislike that we're unplayable until high ECL, but I just want to comment on that it's a natural consequence of picking a monster, and I feel that shouldn't get discouraged.

I see. Well, I free to decrease penalty to -0.25, anyway it doesn't dramatically change something. +0.25

Table will be updated.

[Beni-Kujaku]

And here is the updated table:

Name	Alignment / Race	Class Levels	Chef	loky1109	Total	Place
Shakeira, ghastly dancedog	LE Wendigo Feral yowler	Sorcerer 2/Monk 1/Cloaked Dancer 5/Tattooed Monk 3	ciopo	14.00	14.00	1st
Dreadful Light	LG Trumpet Archon	Dread Witch 4	ciopo	12.50	12.50	2nd

The next competition theme will be "Keep your monster close, and your enemies closer". I'll create the new thread and post the link here.