OOTS #1258 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ivrytwr]

Good news! *BONK* Another funny yet weirdly effective OotS confab!
Thanks Giant!

[Psyren]

Sounds like Operation: Separate Xykon from Redcloak might actually have a shot.

EDIT: Wait a minute, is Serini saying it was a shell game after all?

[Frozenstep]

So the gate really is in another pyramid this time?

Or is this another double bluff!?

[Jacky720]

Buried under a mile of multidimensional stone? Or it really is at some unmarked coordinates out in the snow?

Are they going to risk giving up the swap-overs then? Serini definitely did step all over the silver lining, but, y'know, Serini's house is still back here. That's probably worth protecting if they can come up with another ambush.

I guess they could just go out a different door without giving up the swap-overs, but then they lose the surprise round.

So many questions!

...when did Mr. Scruffy fall asleep?

[dancrilis]

Still liking Serini.

But not sure I am following this one - the tone I got from it was that Roy's attack Xykon now plan is on hold.

Roy wants to fight Xykon.
Haley didn't want to reveal the secret of the final dungeon.
Turns out it isn't the final dungeon.

So Roy's plan is still on?

[enq]

Even Scruffy was surprised to hear that this isn't the final dungeon.

[KorvinStarmast]

*Loose Brains End Campaigns!* O-Chul goodness for the win.

"You don't need to know that!" Bonk! OpSec for the win.

"I am fully prepared to forget everything." Belkar stays true to form, smart alec.

Weak-kneed donut holes ~ Serini's insults are certainly creative.

"This isn't the final dungeon"

Why am I not surprised?

[Fyraltari]

Somebody should take that stick away from Serini until she learns to handle it responsibly.

Also, brace yourselves for a thousand more people theorizing Kraagor's Gate is under Kraagor's statue, everyone.

[Empiar93]

Serini, is there a particular reason you put the party and the audience through all of that if the Gate isn’t even here?

[drazen]

So the gate really is in another pyramid this time?

Or is this another double bluff!?

I was mocked for saying the statue was a marker -- but I never meant the statue is the gate itself, wholly undefended. Just that it's a marker to the entrance of the 'true' final dungeon. And that entrance can be covered up with stone and not easily accessible -- just like Girard's final gate was right behind a wall and lead sheeting. There could well be a big ol' lead platform under where the Kraagor statue once stood. Serini has the teleport wand and would not need to get into the final dungeon unless something went REALLY wrong.

I kind of wondered how the "final dungeon" was ridiculously empty and only had two ceiling monsters and a floor monster and a few caverns, aside from Serini's ambush. Serini has probably used that exact approach before on anyone who successfully disabled the swap-over trap(s) -- as she tried to do to the Order.

It is an odd detail that Mr. Scruffy woke up just for the beat that it's not the final dungeon, though. If we want some real crazy grasping at straws, then Mr. Scruffy is the final dungeon, brought to life and polymorphed into a cat!

[dancrilis]

Serini, is there a particular reason you put the party and the audience through all of that if the Gate isn’t even here?

They invaded the corridors of her house, started messing with her stuff and tried to start a fight at one of her front doors, and attacked her when she tried to defend her property - she has shown remarkable restraint.

[Shining Wrath]

This isn't the final dungeon, and she's not relying on the swap-overs.

That means that Team Evil has killed a whole lot of monsters and gotten nowhere, and even if they explore every single door, and find the swap-overs, they will be no closer to the final gate.

In fact ... probably the best thing the OotS could do to protect the final gate is to kill Serini and Sunny, and destroy their bodies and all their possessions. That way no one would know how to reach the final gate, and it'd be really difficult to contact them. "But that would be wrong", he said slowly.

Anyway, they really should confiscate Serini's staff so she can't use it for head-bonking purposes.

[Peelee]

Somebody should take that stick away from Serini until she learns to handle it responsibly.

That one seemed pretty warranted. There's really no reason for them to know at this point.

[Frozenstep]

I was mocked for saying the statue was a marker -- but I never meant the statue is the gate itself, wholly undefended. Just that it's a marker to the entrance of the 'true' final dungeon. And that entrance can be covered up with stone and not easily accessible -- just like Girard's final gate was right behind a wall and lead sheeting. There could well be a big ol' lead platform under where the Kraagor statue once stood. Serini has the teleport wand and would not need to get into the final dungeon unless something went REALLY wrong.

I kind of wondered how the "final dungeon" was ridiculously empty and only had two ceiling monsters and a floor monster and a few caverns, aside from Serini's ambush. Serini has probably used that exact approach before on anyone who successfully disabled the swap-over trap(s) -- as she tried to do to the Order.

It is an odd detail that Mr. Scruffy woke up just for the beat that it's not the final dungeon, though. If we want some real crazy grasping at straws, then Mr. Scruffy is the final dungeon, brought to life and polymorphed into a cat!

Or maybe the real final dungeon was the friends we made along the way

But yeah, right now underneath the statue is looking like a really good guess.

[ellindsey]

Or maybe the real final dungeon was the friends we made along the way

The real final dungeon is the MitD?

I could see that, actually.

[hroþila]

Serini, is there a particular reason you put the party and the audience through all of that if the Gate isn’t even here?

The trick is still useful, and it's working for now. Accidentally tipping off Team Evil about the nature of the trap might not give them access to the final dungeon, but it would still put them that much closer to it because it would allow them to bypass the fake dungeon. Plus we don't know if a big destructive fight here could also endanger the final dungeon, that depends on lots of unknown factors regarding distance, structure, way of access, etc. Plus she doesn't particularly want the Order dead.

Also, "all of that" = like 20 strips of action

[Coventry]

"Any half-decent rogue can spot and disarm the swap-overs."

Shining a bright spot-light on a key weakness of Team Evil - no sneaky people remain. Killing Right-eye might have been a worse blunder for Redcloak than creating Xykon was.

[Kantaki]

Yeah, not telling our lovable morons* where the Gate is is probably a good idea.

This isn't going to result in the Gate ending up as accidental collateral damage, right?

*A.k.a the heroes.

[137beth]

So New Belkar can still be Old Belkar when it helps the party!

[SavageWombat]

I wonder if this means that this dungeon builds on the tactics of all the other dungeons combined?

[Reboot]

Serini, is there a particular reason you put the party and the audience through all of that if the Gate isn’t even here?

General principle. She IS a rogue.

[137beth]

"Any half-decent rogue can spot and disarm the swap-overs."

Shining a bright spot-light on a key weakness of Team Evil - no sneaky people remain. Killing Right-eye might have been a worse blunder for Redcloak than creating Xykon was.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

If Redcloak hadn't killed Right-Eye, Xykon would have done it. And if Right-Eye had somehow escaped, he'd be helping the Order now.

[Fyraltari]

Serini, is there a particular reason you put the party and the audience through all of that if the Gate isn’t even here?

She never said she was worried about Team Evil finding out about the swap_overs or this facility, though.

"Any half-decent rogue can spot and disarm the swap-overs."

Shining a bright spot-light on a key weakness of Team Evil - no sneaky people remain. Killing Right-eye might have been a worse blunder for Redcloak than creating Xykon was.

I mean... they could have recruited another rogue-type.

[JonahFalcon]

But I want to hear about the shiny icicle.

On a side note, Mr. Scruffy is so involved.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: SoD

Show

If Redcloak hadn't killed Right-Eye, Xykon would have done it. And if Right-Eye had somehow escaped, he'd be helping the Order now.

Spoiler

Show

Assuming he'd even be alive. He was pretty old by the end. Among the goblins, only Redcloak is immortal.

They invaded the corridors of her house, started messing with her stuff and tried to start a fight at one of her front doors, and attacked her when she tried to defend her property - she has shown remarkable restraint.

They announced their arrival multiple times and had no reason to believe she was even alive. This was not a home invasion, and even if it was, she only has herself to blame for them not realizing she even had a home much less that it was occupied.

[The MunchKING]

Ah how Good of Belkar, always willing to make sacrifices for the mission.

[drazen]

I wonder if this means that this dungeon builds on the tactics of all the other dungeons combined?

I've posted this theory several times before. Not only does she use Kraagor's might, but she uses Girard's deception (the swap-overs), Durokan's magic (the swap-overs are magic), and Lirian's nature (the physical construction). Not sure about a paladin's honor, although she did once express an interest in the class.

[Wraithfighter]

I've posted this theory several times before. Not only does she use Kraagor's might, but she uses Girard's deception (the swap-overs), Durokan's magic (the swap-overs are magic), and Lirian's nature (the physical construction). Not sure about a paladin's honor, although she did once express an interest in the class.

Her relationship with Sonny fits in with the Paladin's Honor part. She might object to the comparison, because she's, you know, a Rogue, but that friendship and belief in protecting those who need protection no matter what their shape might be, that's a pretty damn Paladin thing to do.

And yeah, Paladins don't always do that, as seen by the Sapphire Guard's campaigns against the Goblins. But think less about the worst examples of Paladins and more about, say, O-Chul, who's shown that viewpoint plenty of examples of that understanding in the past.

Also, I'm a little disappointed in Elan not bringing up that everything he knows about stories means that there's no way that they won't find out where the final gate is eventually, either for a final battle or to see it be destroyed :D.

[Ionathus]

But not sure I am following this one - the tone I got from it was that Roy's attack Xykon now plan is on hold.

Roy wants to fight Xykon.
Haley didn't want to reveal the secret of the final dungeon.
Turns out it isn't the final dungeon.

So Roy's plan is still on?

Just because they wouldn't be revealing the final dungeon doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a bad plan -- the other point made against Roy's idea in this strip was that he'd be eating a Meteor Swarm to the face on the way out, because Xykon is now watching the door.

"You don't need to know that!" Bonk! OpSec for the win.

We can never let our company's infosec guy have a stick - he would be bonking heads left and right.

That said: one thing I really do appreciate in this comic is how Serini says "that's on a need to know basis, and you don't" and the heroes of the story say "yeah, that's fair." I think it demonstrates a good-faith effort from them to respect Serini's viewpoint and is more likely to maintain her good graces. Headbonking notwithstanding.

It's also pretty fun to just see the whole team standing around - The Order, the paladins, Serini and Sunny - and making a plan. We've been go-go-go for a long time now, and the last time they genuinely had a moment to catch their breath was back while Durkon was communing...and even that was still only a moment of rest waiting for a slapdash ambush! Really, this is the first genuine moment of downtime we've had since the beginning of this book.

Spoiler

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Assuming he'd even be alive. He was pretty old by the end. Among the goblins, only Redcloak is immortal.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

That was only about a year and a half ago, though, and he was plenty spry at the Dorukan/Xykon battle. I know goblinoids age quickly but I'd still give Right Eye a significant chance of still being alive if he'd escaped.