Why not negotiate with Xykon?

[PontificatusRex]

So, I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, but it seems like an obvious tactic to me.

We (and Roy) know Xykon is not interested in destroying the world. A lot of his best evil happened there. And we know that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak and hasn't for a very long time - for very good reason, since Redcloak has been deceiving him from the beginning. Xykon is savvy enough to know something is up, even if he doesn't know what.

So starting with a few Sending spells, the Order can start explaining what's at stake and that the gods will destroy the world if they think the Snarl might get loose. Why would Xykon not believe them? It's a pretty logical chain of causality, and Xykon is a practical guy. Redcloak is a zealot wracked by guilt and the need to prove that his past misdeeds were worth the sacrifice, but I can't think of anyone who would care less about sunken costs less than Xykon (except possibly Belkar).

And the Order can also explain that Xykon can't bolt to another plane if things go bad - Thor knows about his hidden fortress on the Astral Plane and now so does Durkon. Merely mentioning that they know of its existence would probably do a lot to shake Xykon up. The gods mindwipe all the Outsiders every time they create a new world, they're not going to let a loose cannon like an epic level lich who remembers the previous universe run around, are they?

Also, and perhaps most importantly, Xykon is exactly like Roy - he's a talky man. This is a lich who kept saying "Hey, let's chill out and talk about this" while getting hit in the face with a sword during the battle of Azure City. He also spent a lot of focus chatting with Varsuvius when they attacked with the power of the Soul Splice - a credible threat, but Xykon still was more interested in "Why are you doing this?" than the actual battle. Granted, both times Xykon was feeling that he was not actually threatened by his opponents, but when his phylactery was in danger he got deadly serious - and if the Order simply convinces him of the truth, I think he would get pretty darn serious again in the Order's favor. And I will say again, why would he not believe them? He is not an idealogue committed to a cause, he's just a self-aware villain who is following a scheme that fell in his lap because he has nothing better to do. I really think Xykon would still be just as happy doing some random evil stuff while waiting for Roy to level up enough to be a good challenge, he's like Elan that way.

Heck, Xykon would probably have more luck convincing Redcloak to help the gods than Durkon did. I don't think it's too much of a stretch: "I want to keep existing and not go to the Lower Planes for punishment, therefore the world has to keep existing. So if you don't lend your Dark One purple energy to create new Gates, I am going to level Gobbotopia to the last mewling goblin infant, then go kill every other goblin I can find." Redcloak might not believe Durkon's promises, but you know he'll believe Xykon's threats.

So, trying to defeat Xykon in battle seems like a massive longshot. Telling Xykon the truth and convincing him that your interests are aligned in this issue seems far more likely to succeed.

[hroþila]

On paper, this makes sense, and if Roy isn't still somewhat emotionally invested in destroying Xykon it could happen. At least as a last-ditch effort, I could see the Order doing it.

In practice, Xykon knows since day 1 that the destruction of the world and total oblivion is a possible outcome here. I don't think he's going to stop unless he learns that the Plan can't actually do what he thinks, and if he learns that, the risk of Xykon just offing Redcloak is too great, I think. Yes, he's interested in surviving and doesn't want to destroy the world, but if he doesn't buy 100% of what the Order tells him, he can still believe he'll be fine in his Astral Fortress (and if the Order knows about it, well, he can build another one somewhere else), or that Jirix can do the job just fine (because he can probably cast the Dark One's ritual, but he can't do what Thor needs, and the Dark One could stop granting him spells altogether if he tries to replace Redcloak), or what have you.

Your point still stands though - is all of this necessarily more of a long shot than beating Team Evil in a straight fight? Maybe not.
But the Order is not planning to engage Team Evil in a straight fight either.

[elros]

I don't see Roy talking to Xykon, but I am looking forward to seeing how Xykon reacts when he finds out that Redcloak's plan will not help him. Given his desire to avoid going to the lower planes, I see him trying to attack the gods directly. We know he can plane shift, and his main tactic is charging headfirst and slinging spells, so he may do that.

[Fyraltari]

I don't see Roy talking to Xykon, but I am looking forward to seeing how Xykon reacts when he finds out that Redcloak's plan will not help him. Given his desire to avoid going to the lower planes, I see him trying to attack the gods directly. We know he can plane shift, and his main tactic is charging headfirst and slinging spells, so he may do that.

Xykon is very confident in his ability, but I doubt it's to the point of thinking he can take a straight-up god in one-to-one combat, let alone all three pantheons.

[Precure]

But then we can't justify Roy's personal quest of revenge as something selfless as saving the world.

Then again, Xykon might try to pull a Raistlin if he learns the truth.

[brian 333]

Credibility is the main issue. Like when Redcloak doubled down after hearing that the gods were afraid, Xykon might believe that his scheme is working and that his best course is to go harder and faster to maintain the initiative.

What could anyone in The Order, (whom he might vaguely recall as a bunch of low-level wannabes that got lucky in Dorukon's Dungeon,) say that would convince him to abandon a decades-long quest now that he is on the cusp of victory? And in saying it, why would he believe them?

For any negotiation to succeed, the negotiators must bring credibility to the table. Repeating what some guy told you outside a bar somewhere lacks credibility.

[dancrilis]

What could anyone in The Order, (whom he might vaguely recall as a bunch of low-level wannabes that got lucky in Dorukon's Dungeon,) say that would convince him to abandon a decades-long quest now that he is on the cusp of victory? And in saying it, why would he believe them?

Likely nothing - but if the last paladin of a conquered city beaten but not broken who has vowed to stop the evil lich who wiped out his holy order shows up and begs for an audience he might be granted one and if he lays out what he genuinely believes to the the truth despite knowing it is likely his last action whether he is believed or not - well he might be believed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I was going to disagree on seeing the title, but your arguments were pretty persuasive, OP.

Xykon is pure evil, but he does care more about personal survival than Redcloak. He also knows he cannot defeat the gods unless he had the Snarl already under his control.

If he knew it didn't work that way, then he would realize he has no weapon against the Gods and they are minutes away from obliterating him just to make sure.

He's irredeemably evil, but Redcloak's "evil for a good cause" fanaticism is proving to be irrational.

Xykon is capable of being selfishly rational. That is a significant advantage here.

[Wintermoot]

Sure Xykon is capable of being rational, but it isn't a certainty.

He's a very chaotic, random fellow who values his own amusement over achieving ends.

I find it highly suspect he would believe "the truth" even if explained to him, and plausible that, when confronted with his defeat, he'd be willing to take out the world with him by triggering the God's ultimatum. After all, his defeat almost certainly means his destruction and if he can't exist, no one else should either.

That leaves aside the point that he can transition to another plane at more or less will, and has set up a base of operations elsewhere. So there's really no reason to not frag redcloak, frag the order, frag the gate and teleport away to sit and fume on his astral throne while the Gods reset the world. Yes, we haven't verified whether or not the Gods resetting this ONE prime material plane results in a reset of the outer planes, but Rich skews fairly stringently to the traditional D&D planescape setup and in that setup, he'd be fine.

I find it implausible that, when negotiated with and informed of "the truth", his response would be to simply frag redcloak and fly off to go pursue other ends. But its possible, just not very plausible IMO. He doesn't take defeat well and takes embarrassment even less well.

All that being said, I personally am of the camp that Roy's need to confront and defeat Xykon is illogical and there are other, better, ways to deal with this issue.

To start with, team Evil simply does NOT have a WAY to find their way into the inner workings of the tomb. It takes a high level thief with find traps to figure it out. It's clear that trueseeing, detect magic, etc don't get you there. So, if the order hadn't shown up, team evil would've spent another few weeks working their way through the doors before realizing that something weird is going on (due to the monster's fake painted marks), then another few weeks REDOING the doors being more careful about which ones they've done. And then... who knows? Given history, Redcloak might come to the conclusion that the gate is somewhere else entirely and they'd have to wander off to do more investigation/research. Maybe they'd come back with a high level thief and figure out the trap. Maybe they'd just start meteor swarming their way through the walls. But it would take another few weeks at the least.

The tomb's defense WAS WORKING. Of course, now with the empirical evidence of the Order's "disappearance" when entering a tomb door, it makes it MORE likely that team evil figure it out. You know what MIGHT work even though trueseeing and detect magic don't? A second level clerical find traps spell. Something that redcloak, for some reason, hasn't tried yet (probably because he thinks it's useless and expects trueseeing to uncover any trap worth avoiding). Now perhaps he will.

For that several weeks, the Order could be figuring out how to rebuild the other gates. Or they could sneak in and steal Xykon's gem to free Lirian and Dorokun so THEY could remake a gate. Honestly, IMO, that's where their focus should be. How do we get that gem.

Regardless, it is what it is. I don't think trying to negotiate with Xykon gets them closer to safety.

[Darth Paul]

He's a very chaotic, random fellow who values his own amusement over achieving ends.

I find it highly suspect he would believe "the truth" even if explained to him, and plausible that, when confronted with his defeat, he'd be willing to take out the world with him by triggering the God's ultimatum. After all, his defeat almost certainly means his destruction and if he can't exist, no one else should either.

Yep, Xykon can no more be counted on to act rationally than can Redcloak. Why might Xykon just trigger the end of everything? "Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Or they could sneak in and steal Xykon's gem to free Lirian and Dorokun so THEY could remake a gate. Honestly, IMO, that's where their focus should be. How do we get that gem.

Does the Order know about the gem? If so, I missed where they found out (or I just misremember).

[dancrilis]

Does the Order know about the gem? If so, I missed where they found out (or I just misremember).

They don't and even if they did know about them and were able to steal the gem they would still have to find someone capable of casting True Resurrection in Order to bring them back given they have none of their remains - which brings us back to Redcloak as the only known cleric with a level high enough to cast it.

[hungrycrow]

"I'm certainly not about to destroy it unless I get really, REALLY bored." Xykon isn't a rational actor at all, there are definitely scenarios where he realizes he can't control the world and decides to destroy it anyway. He might do it out of frustration for the waste of his time. He might try to use the threat of reaching the gate as some sort of blackmail chip. Lots of ways that could go wrong.

Remember also that he thinks his phylactery is in his astral fortress. Even if the world gets destroyed without warning, he'd just revive and wait around for the next one.

[Lord Raziere]

problem with this:
1. Redcloak is a logical arguer and knows how to pull Xykon's strings better than anyone. He successfully convinced Xkyon to not be concerned about him killing his necromancer friend.....by admitting to it and acting like its not a big deal. he probably has some plan to convince Xykon not to negotiate with the heroes.

2. Xykon is kind of a jerk, to put it lightly. he is capable of very cruel and despicable acts when he feels the need or the want. informing him of the truth, that his entire plan has been for nought and that Redcloak has played him for a fool....well its a question of what exactly he'd do to Redcloak that could turn the outcome in his favor and how far he'd go to do it. destroying the gate then teleporting out to some other plane to await the creation of the next world is a simple solution sure, but what if Xykon gets more creative in his cruelty than that? what if he uses threats and force to make Redcloak teleport the gate to a DIFFERENT god then teleport there, destroy that gate as retaliation against the deities themselves? or is just plain spiteful and decides to go along with Redcloak's plan, but send the Dark One a gate that he makes sure is about to blow up- then when it teleports there it blows up, and then the Snarl kills Redcloaks god, thus screwing over everyone involved.

like this is a Chaotic Evil jerk of the highest caliber who brags about being capital E-evil. its highly unlikely he'd take the reasonable option out of this, unlikely that he wouldn't do something dramatic, petty and utterly completely abhorrent in response to learning such information. this is a guy who killed a lizardfolk for having an overly long name when making evil plan offers when he was still alive and has only gotten worse since then.

like what makes you think he'd be grateful to heroes if they informed him of this? they're still heroes. at the end of the day, they're still on opposite sides of the alignment pool, and knows they'd still try and to track him down to kill him after all this is over. its very possible he'd just say "thanks for the info. meteor swarm, suckers." like thats giving up this information for free to him, to do whatever he wants with, and once he has it.....he has no need to honor anything with Roy. to his mind they're fools who'd give up this information and he owes them precisely jack squat. team up with the order to take down redcloak then suddenly kill Redcloak when he is captured to screw the order over, kill the OOTS, fly off having used them both to come out on top. World technically saved, but bad end nonetheless.

the enemy of Xykon's enemy is his enemies enemy, nothing more, nothing less.

[PontificatusRex]

Remember also that he thinks his phylactery is in his astral fortress. Even if the world gets destroyed without warning, he'd just revive and wait around for the next one.

As I mentioned, the gods know about his fortress, and Durkon knows they know so he can bring that fact to the table.

Thor also told Durkon that the gods mindwipe all the outsiders every time they create a new world - they do a hard reset. As I said, Xykon would be too big a loose end to leave alone and if the Order can get Xykon to accept the truth of the overall situation I don't think it would be hard to convince him of that detail.

Some folks are saying that Xykon can't be trusted to act rationally but I don't see it that way at all. He plays games and acts goofy because it amuses him and he can get away with it, but whenever his actual survival his threatened he doesn't fool around. The only times I can think of when he really has acted irrationally is when he gets annoyed at Redcloak and ignores what might be a better course of action that RC suggests - which actually works in the Order's favor.

Also, Roy doesn't need to be saving all creation from Xykon for his quest to destroy him transcend his personal vendetta. Evil mass murderer needs to be stopped and all that. And Superman has even teamed up with Lex Luthor when Darkseid came to town.

[Wraithfighter]

I mean, one major reason is that he'd probably find the notion of the Snarl devouring an entire heaven's worth of souls and slaughtering a few gods to be super epic?

Xykon's fate isn't tied to the world. He has the power to plane shift back to his fortress, he can live forever, he has epic level magic, and while he's not strong enough to defeat any gods (...yet), he just needs to stay out of their way for a while. Redcloak at least cares about his people.

[Lord Raziere]

point 3...
Vaarsuvius's presence.
Xykon: "aren't you that wizard who threw my phylactery into the sewer and made me wait for weeks for goblins to search for it by hand?"
V: "....No?"
Xykon: "ah ah ah.....no lying. I don't want to hear anything you losers have to say. do you any idea the trouble you caused me with that little stunt? I think its time I finally got around to the kill that was stolen from me"

he isn't going to forget that. and he was more ticked about it than what Roy did to him. they might not be able to negotiate with him if he decides to kill V on sight.

[faustin]

Xykon isn't the Joker. For all his talk with Roy about "ending the world if really, really bored", he totally panicked when his phylactery almost ended in the Snarl, so let's assume he is in fact pretty invested in his own survival.

And discovering the Gods know about his fortress means they either have him monitored 24h or can find him and his phylactery regardless of how many wards he can come up with. Because, you know, Gods.

And if there is a worse fate than the Nine Hells, is to become the collective chew toy of the three pantheons.

Yes, I think Xykon may be willing to listen, after all.

[hungrycrow]

As I mentioned, the gods know about his fortress, and Durkon knows they know so he can bring that fact to the table.

Sorry, missed that paragraph. That said, does Durkon know that? Characters don't remember everything when they get resurrected, and I'm not sure an offhand comment about the fortress is one of the things that would stick.

Some folks are saying that Xykon can't be trusted to act rationally but I don't see it that way at all. He plays games and acts goofy because it amuses him and he can get away with it, but whenever his actual survival his threatened he doesn't fool around. The only times I can think of when he really has acted irrationally is when he gets annoyed at Redcloak and ignores what might be a better course of action that RC suggests - which actually works in the Order's favor.

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

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When Xykon learned being a lich meant no longer enjoying coffee, he immediately murdered a waitress. Imagine what he'd do if he realized his entire unlife's work was for nothing.

I read Xykon the other way: his default reaction to problems is brutal violence towards anyone around him, and the only thing keeping him semi-reasonable is his goofy love of cliched villainy. Take that away and he's just a monster. Sure it'd be better logically for him to just walk away and make different plans, but once the Order gets him to believe the shocking truth part they might lose the chance to influence him with more logic.

[Peelee]

Sorry, missed that paragraph. That said, does Durkon know that? Characters don't remember everything when they get resurrected, and I'm not sure an offhand comment about the fortress is one of the things that would stick.

Characters don't remember everything about Celestia. This may or may not be true for other afterlife planes, but we do know it's not true for the "waiting rooms" outside the afterlife planes. Durkon hadn't crossed the rainbow bridge yet. No reason to think he doesn't remember that whole encounter as well as he can remember anything else.

[Fyraltari]

Characters don't remember everything about Celestia. This may or may not be true for other afterlife planes, but we do know it's not true for the "waiting rooms" outside the afterlife planes. Durkon hadn't crossed the rainbow bridge yet. No reason to think he doesn't remember that whole encounter as well as he can remember anything else.

Furthermore, Jirix could remember his meeting with his deity despite it taking place among the faithful dead (so beyond the "waiting room"), implying that gods have the ability to preserve the memories of the resurectee if they wish to. Which Thor likely would have done for the entire conversation if that were necessary.

Finally, when Thor brought up the astral fortress, he told Durkon to "act surprised if it comes up" which means that Durkon would remember this bit of information.

[woweedd]

Nah. Xykon is a monster who needs to die for the sake of everyone, every second he LIVES is a threat to everyone. Even if he learned Redcloak's plan wouldn't do what he wanted, he'd probably just kill Redcloak and start on some new scheme.

[Psyren]

To negotiate with anyone, you need to have something they want. For Xykon, the only thing they can really offer is to not destroy him, which is a capability they're unsure they even possess - and if they can, there's conversely nothing Xykon can offer that they want. It's doomed before it starts.

All Xykon really wants is to (un)live forever and keep being a jerk, which is a nonstarter as far as the heroes are concerned.

[Lord Raziere]

To negotiate with anyone, you need to have something they want. For Xykon, the only thing they can really offer is to not destroy him, which is a capability they're unsure they even possess - and if they can, there's conversely nothing Xykon can offer that they want. It's doomed before it starts.

All Xykon really wants is to (un)live forever and keep being a jerk, which is a nonstarter as far as the heroes are concerned.

Exactly.

Xykon is in the position of power and has no reason to leave them alive once they inform him of these events. sure he probably won't destroy the world once informed, but that just means he has no reason to humor the plot he is currently the main villain of and just kill everyone involved. why leave these heroic adventurers trying to kill him alive so they could potentially kill him later? his goals will just make him do more cartoonish evil elsewhere and as long as he is informed now.....well the plan is off. but that doesn't mean he is harmless. just means the gods won't blow things up, he is still a very evil lich whose idea of a fun time is sadistic torture for entertainment. if they're going to try to kill him, they might as well do it now.

like a truly evil person like Xykon would go "well it seems I have the world hostage then and I can demand anything of you to convince me to leave Redcloak to you so.....how many and which continents are you offering for me to rule?" thats the kind of thing you'd have to entice him with, because he was wanting to get world domination out of this. the Order can't provide that.

[drazen]

I have been of the belief that there will be negotiations to defeat Xykon -- but they would be for him taking over for Hel, who is wasting away.

Being raised as the new Northern God of Death and Disease is much better than eternal hell, right?

Now THAT might be enough to get him to think it is better than a long time as the bony undead king of a nightmare world that will get unraveled eventually (actually, far sooner than he thinks).

[Roland Itiative]

My guess is that if such a situation happens, Xykon would just think the Order is trying to trick him. Sure, he knows he's plotting against the gods, and probably realises that at some point they could move out against him, but I'm sure he's more willing to deal with it when it happens than just accepting defeat from a group of heroes saying the gods would be mad.

And then, even if he does believe it, they've only bought this world a few years at most. Four out of the five Gates are destroyed, at least one of the Rifts is already gigantic, this world probably won't last long without Thor's idea working out, and Xykon cannot help with that at all.

[halfeye]

I have been of the belief that there will be negotiations to defeat Xykon -- but they would be for him taking over for Hel, who is wasting away.

Hel is related to the rest of the Northern gods, Xykon isn't, I don't think that option is likely, though obviously nothing is impossible.

And then, even if he does believe it, they've only bought this world a few years at most. Four out of the five Gates are destroyed, at least one of the Rifts is already gigantic, this world probably won't last long without Thor's idea working out, and Xykon cannot help with that at all.

Xykon could take part in rebuilding the gates, he's a very strong magic user, and the Snarl is no respecter of alignments.

like a truly evil person like Xykon would go "well it seems I have the world hostage then and I can demand anything of you to convince me to leave Redcloak to you so.....how many and which continents are you offering for me to rule?" thats the kind of thing you'd have to entice him with, because he was wanting to get world domination out of this. the Order can't provide that.

Replace Tarquin with Xykon? I don't expect to see that, but it seems as if it doesn't make the world much worse.

[Mike Havran]

Do our heroes even have significant reason to believe Xykon is being deceived by Redcloak? They know the Ritual helps the Dark One, but why should they assume Xykon is not on board with this? After all, a bunch of devoured Gods is hilarious.

[Psyren]

I have been of the belief that there will be negotiations to defeat Xykon -- but they would be for him taking over for Hel, who is wasting away.

Being raised as the new Northern God of Death and Disease is much better than eternal hell, right?

Now THAT might be enough to get him to think it is better than a long time as the bony undead king of a nightmare world that will get unraveled eventually (actually, far sooner than he thinks).

I can't even begin to think how they'd negotiate that. For one thing, Hel actually dying would require this world to get thrown away, at which point both Xykon and the Order are taken care of.

[Crimsonmantle]

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

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When Xykon learned being a lich meant no longer enjoying coffee, he immediately murdered a waitress. Imagine what he'd do if he realized his entire unlife's work was for nothing.

The two are pretty much on the same order of magnitude

Spoiler

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- trust me, I'm caffeine-dependent - so murder another waitress (messenger) I guess?

[Mechalich]

Do our heroes even have significant reason to believe Xykon is being deceived by Redcloak? They know the Ritual helps the Dark One, but why should they assume Xykon is not on board with this? After all, a bunch of devoured Gods is hilarious.

I suppose it depends on how thoroughly they were involved with O-Chul's debriefing. O-Chul is very aware that Redcloak is fully capable of leading Xykon around by the hole-in-his-skull-where-his-nose-used-to-be and that given the chance Xykon is completely inclined to indulge in small pleasures at the expense his grand plans (in fairness to Xykon, he is a lich, it's not like he can't get around to it later). Some potentially the heroes do have reason to believe that Redcloak and Xykon have points of conflict between them, though they probably underestimate how far it goes.