OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

[Edward15]

Yeah, I have a feeling that if anything happens to Serini, Elan is going to have his own familiar.

Btw, is it just me, or did Serini's question regarding Xykon sound a bit suspicious?

[Seramus]

Am I the only one that actually counted them to see if it was in fact 11?

I love that it was also a joke about how many eyes a trademark beholder actually has. :D

[hungrycrow]

I mean, given the way they voted, can you say they don't deserve it?

They were split, and I imagine some of the destroy the world votes might have been trying to avoid mortal souls getting annihilated by the Snarl.

Though I can see how that reasoning wouldn't be particularly compelling to Roy and the others.

[pearl jam]

And hopefully this puts an end to all the debates about Serini's motivations. While I wouldn't say she was exactly correct, the lack of even factoring in the gods makes perfect sense for her.

I dunno, I'm not a fan of "this character conveniently forgot this important piece of information they know." Then again it's not exactly clear how speculative the Scribblers' understanding of the gods' intention was. Did they even know about the Godsmoot?

People forget things all the time, even important things they would not want to forget. Aging can increase this and certain diseases can do so devastatingly. Also, I don't think it's accurate to say that Serini forgetting this information was "convenient" in story terms because forgetting was not the solution to a dilemma, but rather a factor in the cause. Additionally the reasons given for her forgetting to include the gods in her calculus seem reasonable and we could even possibly add on the trauma of facing Xykon again as another possible reason that could have clouded her thinking in a way that allowed her to forget to consider what the gods might do.

[Mad Humanist]

Sunny meeting the MitD will be gold. I wouldn't be surprised if the two ended up as long-term friends in the end.

I think it is quite likely that Sunny knows the MitD already from his time in Dorukan's dungeon. Maybe Serini had various ways of keeping tabs on the gates and sending Sunny there to look for work was probably one. So we might get a Sunny/MitD flashback.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, I have a feeling that if anything happens to Seirini, Elan is going to have his own familiar.

Btw, is it just me, or did Seirini's question regarding Xykon sound a bit suspicious?

Serini. Serini Toormuck.

[woweedd]

Belkar...BELKAR, Mr. Wisdom of a coffee table, just successfully empathized with another person and then phrased a compelling argument about his viewpoint using his understanding. And he didn't even do it on purpose, it was just them connecting through natural Chaotic cynicism. I...What the...WHAT?

[Lvl45DM!]

While Belkar and Haley did well, I can't help but feel that the most decisive factor in Serini changing her mind was having a Paladin to yell at. Lien coming in put her back up and she starts agreeing with the Order without even thinking about it.

[Crimsonmantle]

Haley doesn’t seem to happy about Elan spending so much time with Sunny though.

She looks downright jealous. My mind is going off on a number of tangents there.

[Baelzar]

Is "Adorbeholder" copyrighted?

[Schroeswald]

One fun thing I noticed was that Lien doesn’t actually know Belkar’s name. That makes sense because they’ve only incidentally met before today.

[brionl]

Yeah, I have a feeling that if anything happens to Serini, Elan is going to have his own familiar.

Btw, is it just me, or did Serini's question regarding Xykon sound a bit suspicious?

Cohort, not familiar.

[t209]

I love the beholder with cute little eyes.
For some reason, I am starting to see Bob from YAFGC vibe here.

[Thermophille]

Serini's comment about letting Xykon live brought back a theory I saw discussed a while ago: The order could literally tell Xykon that Redcloak plans to give the Gate to the Dark One, that there was never a way to control the Snarl, and that the gods are a hairs breath away from hitting the Big Red Button. He probably wouldn't believe it at first, but he has plenty of reason to be suspicious of Redcloak, and creating that rift in Team Evil might quickly dissolve their ability to accomplish anything.

Of course, it might damage their ability to negotiate with Redcloak, but that's better than being steamrolled by approximately 10 butt-tons of epic lich sorcerer.

[ben-zayb]

Oh, I always love seeing Belkar's unfiltered speech knocking some sense back into people. Did he take a feat that added his attack roll and/or damage roll to his diplomacy checks or something?

[Thermophille]

Oh, I always love seeing Belkar's unfiltered speech knocking some sense back into people. Did he take a feat that added his attack roll and/or damage roll to his diplomacy checks or something?

No, he gets to make an attack roll against bull****.

[NoHaxJustPi]

Serini's comment about letting Xykon live brought back a theory I saw discussed a while ago: The order could literally tell Xykon that Redcloak plans to give the Gate to the Dark One, that there was never a way to control the Snarl, and that the gods are a hairs breath away from hitting the Big Red Button. He probably wouldn't believe it at first, but he has plenty of reason to be suspicious of Redcloak, and creating that rift in Team Evil might quickly dissolve their ability to accomplish anything.

Of course, it might damage their ability to negotiate with Redcloak, but that's better than being steamrolled by approximately 10 butt-tons of epic lich sorcerer.

"Damage their ability to negotiate"?
I suppose negotiating with a stain on the floor would​ be rather difficult.

[No good @ names]

Serini's comment about letting Xykon live brought back a theory I saw discussed a while ago: The order could literally tell Xykon that Redcloak plans to give the Gate to the Dark One, that there was never a way to control the Snarl, and that the gods are a hairs breath away from hitting the Big Red Button. He probably wouldn't believe it at first, but he has plenty of reason to be suspicious of Redcloak, and creating that rift in Team Evil might quickly dissolve their ability to accomplish anything.

Of course, it might damage their ability to negotiate with Redcloak, but that's better than being steamrolled by approximately 10 butt-tons of epic lich sorcerer.

Don’t need to mention the Gods and big red button. Just got to split Xykon from Redcloak. Got two rogues now, shouldn’t be too hard. Like you said he’s already suspicious of Redcloak, (feigned) betrayal would be enough. Xykon’s shown in the Throne room to (belatedly) retreat if he’s at risk of losing. Particularly if he gets suspicious about his phylactery/Astral Fortress.

He of course sets MitD on Redcloak, and then O’Chul outpaladins every paladin ever and tries to stop Monster-san from eating Redcloak. Redcloak is amazed that an Azure City Paladin would save him, as he was with the hobgoblin saving him from the catapult boulder. Monster-san upset about killing his only friend is enough to break the spell, as with Thanh with pretend Shojo.

Redcloak has now lost his arcane caster for the plan and developed some sympathy for the cause.

[Michaeler]

Belkar...BELKAR, Mr. Wisdom of a coffee table, just successfully empathized with another person and then phrased a compelling argument about his viewpoint using his understanding. And he didn't even do it on purpose, it was just them connecting through natural Chaotic cynicism. I...What the...WHAT?

I think it probably was deliberate. It parallels what Roy tried to drunkenly explain at the end of the dwarven lands, that Belkar is effective when he can be bothered to be.

In this case Belkar, looking at this from a Chaotic perspective, realised that the problem was that the talkers were all Lawful and so couldn't frame their arguments as anti-authoritarian, which Serini would find credible. So he stomped in there with all the tact of a lit match in a bottle of high strength sake and insulted all the gods in front of a pair of paladins. It's kinda what he does.

On an aside, anyone else getting a distracted boyfriend meme vibe from the last panel?

[danielxcutter]

I think it probably was deliberate. It parallels what Roy tried to drunkenly explain at the end of the dwarven lands, that Belkar is effective when he can be bothered to be.

In this case Belkar, looking at this from a Chaotic perspective, realised that the problem was that the talkers were all Lawful and so couldn't frame their arguments as anti-authoritarian, which Serini would find credible. So he stomped in there with all the tact of a lit match in a bottle of high strength sake and insulted all the gods in front of a pair of paladins. It's kinda what he does.

On an aside, anyone else getting a distracted boyfriend meme vibe from the last panel?

And thank you for that lovely mental image.

[Liquor Box]

The Scribblers as a group completely succeeded at their initial goal. The aftermath where someone might figure out the Gates themselves might be used as a weapon was given barely any thought. Yes, they figured out this possibility but I think it is fair to say they did not have a plan or consider the larger ramifications at all.

Heck, they apparently knew a Gate could be weaponized, but they may not have realized that this could actually be used to kill a god. The gods live Out There and the Gates wrap Rifts in the fabric of This World Here. Whether they did or did not recognize this specific possibility is speculation.

Dorukon did seem to foresee that a gate could be weaponised, and did have a plan to prevent it - the self destruct button.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar...BELKAR, Mr. Wisdom of a coffee table, just successfully empathized with another person and then phrased a compelling argument about his viewpoint using his understanding. And he didn't even do it on purpose, it was just them connecting through natural Chaotic cynicism. I...What the...WHAT?

Pretty sure he did it on purpose. And for all his failings as a ranger, Belkar hasnalways been pretty perceptive about people. So he can better insult them, true, but still, since the pyramid he's been channelling that in more useful ways.

"Damage their ability to negotiate"?
I suppose negotiating with a stain on the floor would​ be rather difficult.

Durkon has Speak with Dead. Granted, it didn't work so hot last time, but you never know...

[Adun]

Eleven puppy dog eyes: the most powerful eye attack in the manual!!!

[Grey Watcher]

Did Rich just make the cute beholder unspecified eye creature even cuter?

[Ruck]

She looks downright jealous. My mind is going off on a number of tangents there.

I wouldn't go that far-- on either point-- but I'm still not sure what Haley's expression is or means. My thought was perhaps some befuddlement that, as soon as the conflict is resolved, Elan is immediately back off to doing childish things. Maybe a bit of concern about him wandering off with a strange monster they just met (even if they seem friendly).

Serini's comment about letting Xykon live brought back a theory I saw discussed a while ago: The order could literally tell Xykon that Redcloak plans to give the Gate to the Dark One, that there was never a way to control the Snarl, and that the gods are a hairs breath away from hitting the Big Red Button. He probably wouldn't believe it at first, but he has plenty of reason to be suspicious of Redcloak, and creating that rift in Team Evil might quickly dissolve their ability to accomplish anything.

Of course, it might damage their ability to negotiate with Redcloak, but that's better than being steamrolled by approximately 10 butt-tons of epic lich sorcerer.

"Damage their ability to negotiate"?
I suppose negotiating with a stain on the floor would​ be rather difficult.

Yeah, leaving Redcloak a grease spot wouldn't help matters much, and there's no real reason Xykon wouldn't still just kill the Order. Plus, Roy's got the blood oath.

However, when I started to think about it, it would be a hell of an interesting play in combat. I don't know if Xykon would believe them, but if he did, in theory it could force Redcloak to switch sides-- because after that cat's out of the bag, Xykon is definitely going to kill him, and the Order definitely needs his help.

It could also be of a theme with cooperation and the friends we made along the way-- the final ally the Order needs to win over in order to succeed, leaving Xykon all alone. That said, I'm not sure how well the theme sticks if the cooperation is effectively coerced.

[Reboot]

Eh, I'd peg Serini as CN at best.

oh no, here we go again...

Eh, her "good guys love that line" chuckle here pushed me a long way into "she's Neutral"

One fun thing I noticed was that Lien doesn’t actually know Belkar’s name. That makes sense because they’ve only incidentally met before today.

There's also the fact that, as Roy once mentioned, neither Lien nor O'Chul are actually allowed to associate with Belkar:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code

At best, they're walking a tightrope with this party by not "knowing" Belkar is CE. One "Detect Evil" in the wrong direction, and they have a problem.

[Peelee]

Serini's comment about letting Xykon live brought back a theory I saw discussed a while ago: The order could literally tell Xykon that Redcloak plans to give the Gate to the Dark One, that there was never a way to control the Snarl, and that the gods are a hairs breath away from hitting the Big Red Button. He probably wouldn't believe it at first, but he has plenty of reason to be suspicious of Redcloak, and creating that rift in Team Evil might quickly dissolve their ability to accomplish anything.

How would they come by this knowledge in order to tell Xykon? Only Tsukiko was able to figure it out, and they that took having Xykon directly give her everything she needed to even be able to guess that.

Dorukon did seem to foresee that a gate could be weaponised, and did have a plan to prevent it - the self destruct button.

I do wonder if that would have been the case had the author gone in on panel 1 with the story outlined and plotted.

Eh, her "good guys love that line" chuckle here pushed me a long way into "she's Neutral"

Yep. I may have been a bit flippant when I said "at best" but I believe she is firmly Neutral.

[Coyote0715]

Was it just me, or did anyone else get emails this morning about the last 10 strips being posted?

[Noodz]

I'm sure you get these posts a lot Rich, but still: brilliant writing.

I was ready to grudgingly accept Serini as another bull headed minor antagonist, a bit like Tarquin. I mean, fiction has taught us that old people are incredibly good at not changing their opinion, and I was ready to bin Serini there.

Having Belkar upstage the entire party and present facts in a viewpoint no other party member even considers is cathartic. I want the cool rogue-ish grandma to be on the heroes side! Thank you and once again props.

As an aside, I started reading webcomics before I was 20 years old. It did take me a while to discover OotS, i think my first archive binge led me to around comic 400 or something, which would make my OotS discovery at 2007, so i would be on my late 20s. Now i recently broke the 40s. I have already dropped every single other webcomic, except for OotS. It's the sole comic I still check at least once a week to see if new comics came up. It sounds insane to me that you held my attention for so long even as I changed so much, but that is exactly what you're doing.

[Darth Paul]

"Every part of this is hideously complicated," indeed. About every 6 months, I have to go back and read from the beginning just to make sure I've got it all. But it's totally worth it.