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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    A case in point being Hilgya.
    Is it? We don't know what level Hilgya or the high priest of Loki were, I don't believe.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Is it? We don't know what level Hilgya or the high priest of Loki were, I don't believe.
    She is able to cast high level spells; per class and level and geekery thread she is reasonably estimated at level 14+.
    Not adventuring does not gain levels. We see no evidence that HPofLoki has power at that level.
    Adventurers get higher levels.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-05-04 at 01:12 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    Or he's just easily bored by bureaucracy (as many Chaotic characters are), and was fed up with other gods flip-flopping and extending the debates.
    Good point. Granted, I don't think that's the reason, but it is valid.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    She is able to cast high level spells; per class and level and geekery thread she is reasonably estimated at level 14+.
    Not adventuring does not gain levels. We see no evidence that HPofLoki has power at that level.
    Adventurers get higher levels.
    We know all the high priests have enough experience to reach mid level, why assume they stopped there?

    Also, Crystal got levels for free for being a rival. There could be other nonadventuring methods of gaining levels.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    We know all the high priests have enough experience to reach mid level, why assume they stopped there?

    Also, Crystal got levels for free for being a rival. There could be other nonadventuring methods of gaining levels.
    Shojo got to level 14 while being heir apparent (and ruler) his entire life, so I doubt he did much adventuring either.
    Last edited by Mike Havran; 2022-05-04 at 03:48 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    She is able to cast high level spells; per class and level and geekery thread she is reasonably estimated at level 14+.
    Not adventuring does not gain levels. We see no evidence that HPofLoki has power at that level.
    Adventurers get higher levels.
    So you're saying we don't know what level Hilgya or the high priest of Loki were?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermophille View Post
    Loki's exact line is "Ugh, I should have never pushed for that 'no backsies' rule", which indicates that Loki considers himself responsible for the institution of that rule. Why might a god of mischief and schemes institute such a rule? Because I can't think of one that makes more sense than 'keeping people from backing out when they realize they got caught up in a scheme'.
    I don't think we know this is why, but it's a very reasonable and sound conclusion given what we do know.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Also becoming the high priest sounds like a swell retirement plan for a high-level adventurer Cleric. Tarquin once refered to Malack as "a high priest" (though maybe not the high priest of Nergal) and he used to be a high level adventurer.

    Would not be surprised to learn that most people at the godsmoot are (retired) adventurers.

    Well, I would be surprised to learn it, because that's so insignificant I can't really see a situation where the story or The Giant would need to give us this information, but I wouldn't be surprised by the content of the learning.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    I think the High Priest of Loki was at least level 11; IIRC he used Flame Strike?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    Shojo got to level 14 while being heir apparent (and ruler) his entire life, so I doubt he did much adventuring either.
    He got there as an NPC, so level 14 Aristocrat is a lot easier to achieve, but the paperwork is a big itch. Rogues get experience for trapsetting and other rogueish things, Bards get exp for whatever it is bards do, and NPCs get exp for whatever they do.

    Carpenters build houses, so I can imagine this scene:

    (Apprentice Carpenter, Level 1)
    Oh boy! My first house! I'll make 10 silver and 100 exp building it!

    (Journeyman Carpenter, Level 5)
    I need to build 25 more of those to level up. I wish we were building a barn or a warehouse.

    (Master Carpenter, level 10)
    I need to build a Parliament building to level up. Let's go to the tavern and find out where the adventurers are going to overturn a government next.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    But technically, if our cheating deity convinced their high priest... then when the high priest gets the notification that a rival priest is trying to resurrect them, they'll just send it to voicemail and resume their dinner at All Steaks Go To Heaven. And even if a Miracle is used, it's hard for me to imagine the DM not rolling with "You're duplicating a spell effect, so you're bound by the same rules that govern Resurrection."
    Well, if it was up to a DM, I'd argue that I'm asking for an effect whose power level is in line with a spell, not duplicating the spell. And I'll start at Raise Dead, a 5th level spell, so we can pile 3 more spell levels on top if we have to budget for the power of antagonistic resurrections. We can then bargain our way up the chain, up to and including dropping 5,000 XP on the open-ended "very powerful request" option.

    But, importantly, there is no DM in this world, and mechanical balances have always taken a back seat to dramatic worldbuilding. Arcane power has already been able to keep a soul against its will. Divine power is uniquely suited to punting one back down.

    Unless, of course, there's no Miracles in the world, and also no homebrew that fits the bill. That's the annoying bit about "rules unless otherwise stated" - until that statement comes, your plan looks just like one that would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac
    The main problem with that is that the gods have been playing by air-bud rules. "Don't kill the ushers" strikes me as a much more obvious unwritten rule than "Dogs can't play basketball".
    The whole reason The Durk One could kill the ushers was because the meeting was being administrated by a third party, who had no protections. They were elemental worshipers, after all, with no representation in a Godsmoot. Presumably, also not selected by divine choice. A lot of the Moot as we know it seems to be church laws, if useful and well-meaning ones, not divine command.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tanonx View Post
    Unless, of course, there's no Miracles in the world, and also no homebrew that fits the bill.
    I'd strongly suspect that for dramatic purposes there is no miracle spell and no equivalent, just like there's no true resurrections.

    Really, the miracle spells seems like a terrible addition to any non-table top story (expect maybe something where the whole story is structured around it like genie short stories). If Rich wants a spell to stop an Earthquake (an example from the miracle's spell description) he'd foreshadow and use a spell that does exactly and only that, without raising any questions about using it to teleport or any random thing.


    The whole reason The Durk One could kill the ushers was because the meeting was being administrated by a third party, who had no protections. They were elemental worshipers, after all, with no representation in a Godsmoot. Presumably, also not selected by divine choice. A lot of the Moot as we know it seems to be church laws, if useful and well-meaning ones, not divine command.
    I really don't see how that's anything other than a break down of "Ain't no rule says you can't kill the ushers".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I'd strongly suspect that for dramatic purposes there is no miracle spell and no equivalent, just like there's no true resurrections.

    Really, the miracle spells seems like a terrible addition to any non-table top story (expect maybe something where the whole story is structured around it like genie short stories). If Rich wants a spell to stop an Earthquake (an example from the miracle's spell description) he'd foreshadow and use a spell that does exactly and only that, without raising any questions about using it to teleport or any random thing.
    Also, if we're going with "This is a story world and there is no DM" then we also go back to (iirc) "Rich has said he will never use suicide as a solution / plot device" which makes the argument moot.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Also, Crystal got levels for free for being a rival. There could be other nonadventuring methods of gaining levels.
    Hmm, while the distinct mechanic mentioned was "nemesis" (for narrative reasons) that's a good point. Other similar avenues may also exist that are not shown on screen.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    Really, the miracle spells seems like a terrible addition to any non-table top story (expect maybe something where the whole story is structured around it like genie short stories).
    I would say there's one strong argument for Miracle that puts it over True Resurrection, Wish, and so on: Where Wish is altering reality, and other spells are things you can just do, Miracle is specifically a request. You say what you want to happen, and request divine intercession.

    Since the gods in this world are fleshed-out characters already, with the final say on not just whether it happens, but how, you have far more tools at your disposal to preserve drama, and are under no obligation to even make it a repeatable request, never mind being forced to consider the greater ramifications of said request being possible whenever a sufficiently high-level cleric feels like.

    Honestly, it'd be less of a problem for narrative tension than the existence of homebrew content is already. With a Miracle, you still have defined limits on what can happen. A very high-level cleric needs to request it, their deity needs to find it agreeable and important enough to burn divine energy on, it can't clash with existing restrictions on divine action (and we have plenty of those), and it weakens the caster if it does anything existing spells wouldn't cover. Obscure supplements and homebrewed content need no such restrictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I really don't see how that's anything other than a break down of "Ain't no rule says you can't kill the ushers".
    Because the gods never cared if you killed the ushers to start with. That line only works if someone tries to stop you. As Durk points out, they have no protection from the rules of the Godsmoot, and no god to speak up on their behalf. Which, incidentally, implies that having a god to speak up on your behalf can be a factor even if you're technically not protected. More immediately relevant, they're excluded from protection, when a simpler "no killing" rule wouldn't have that problem. Given how Hel's plan revolves around keeping inside Godsmoot protections, it's probably smart not to extend them any further than you have to. In case somebody, say, teleported in at the right time and dominated all of them to get an advantage.

    Besides, they're not really vital to the plan. Durk knew the rules of the Godsmoot, meaning anything keeping him from vamping someone there would just mean he'd vamp a cleric along the way and send them ahead. Same goes for a potential Plan Domination.

    And a quick reminder, the earlier topic is about how the gods play, not the mortals. We still don't know which rules belong to which set, and I'd say the whole bodyguard-cleric dynamic is a mortal invention. Gods don't need help putting someone to death immediately if they've got the go-ahead from the divine law.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the OotS gods are incompetent.
    I was thinking this too for the longest time, but after a while, I think it's less that they're incompetent, and more that they're slaves to their own nature which... doesn't seem to be much in their control.

    The discussions between Loki and Thor and about Odin and how his nature got borked by some of his followers really paints a picture of gods who are less "supreme authorities" over their portfolios, and more incarnations of those portfolios with little to no say over what form those portfolios take. Whatever power and divine status they derive from their portfolios, so too are they bound by them.

    The gods are clearly shaped as much by their worlds and followers and the reverse, and the end result is... imperfect gods create imperfect followers which leads to further imperfections of said gods, rinse and repeat over n generations of worlds...



    I guess this doesn't really say that the gods aren't incompetent, so much as explain how they got that way. And they were flawed beings to start with - thus the Snarl and impetus for... everything. But from what we've seen of how they're shaped, it seems doubtful that the dectillion worlds or so they created would have lead to more positive developments than, say... dementia Odins.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    In fairness to the gods, it seems they had no way of knowing it was even possible to create new quiddities. They also need to create worlds to not die, so it doesn't really seem fair to blame them for keeping the cycle going. What better alternative was there?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    In fairness to the gods, it seems they had no way of knowing it was even possible to create new quiddities. They also need to create worlds to not die, so it doesn't really seem fair to blame them for keeping the cycle going. What better alternative was there?
    In fairness to Serini, it's really hard to see things that way when everything you know and love is being sacrificed by someone you've never met.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermophille View Post
    In fairness to Serini, it's really hard to see things that way when everything you know and love is being sacrificed by someone you've never met.
    Well yes, but that wasn't aimed at Serini, it was aimed at the people on this forum who were calling the gods incompetent for not having solved the Snarl situation already.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermophille View Post
    In fairness to Serini, it's really hard to see things that way when everything you know and love is being sacrificed by someone you've never met.
    In unfairness to Serini, that's exactly what letting the lich take over the world would do to everyone else. Plenty of irony in that.

    She says the world will survive, the gods say the multiverse will survive. At least the latter have the planar afterlife to offer.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tanonx View Post
    In unfairness to Serini, that's exactly what letting the lich take over the world would do to everyone else. Plenty of irony in that.
    You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath. Given the world they live in, and despite it being obvious wishful-thinking she came up with to justify her already-decided course of action, rather than the opposite, it's not that unlikely that a team of heroes would eventually arise to cast down the evil tyrant.

    She says the world will survive, the gods say the multiverse will survive. At least the latter have the planar afterlife to offer.
    Not great news for the dwarves. And frankly most of these afterlives mighty suck.

    Also, if the Snarl gets out on the planet, then no afterlife for anybody.

    Hell, even her concern that the Order might destroy the final Gate isn't that unreasonable when you remember that Roy once equated Xykon winning and the planet being literally destroyed (first page, bottom row).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath. Given the world they live in, and despite it being obvious wishful-thinking she came up with to justify her already-decided course of action, rather than the opposite, it's not that unlikely that a team of heroes would eventually arise to cast down the evil tyrant.
    He wouldn't run everything himself, but he might pick people just as sadistic as he is to run things for him. He might have let Redcloak run things, but he also gave Tsukiko license to run around zombifying goblin soldiers.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    He wouldn't run everything himself, but he might pick people just as sadistic as he is to run things for him. He might have let Redcloak run things, but he also gave Tsukiko license to run around zombifying goblin soldiers.
    Oh, it would definitely suck more for the people in the general area where he'd live settle, sure. But I don't see him appointing people for every state on the planet.

    No really, I think the real risknwould be him deciding to blow up the planet put of boredom.

    Besides, this is all a moot point anyway.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    He wouldn't run everything himself, but he might pick people just as sadistic as he is to run things for him. He might have let Redcloak run things, but he also gave Tsukiko license to run around zombifying goblin soldiers.
    Yes and that's exactly the beginning of his end, cause you know, evil is not a happy family.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2022-05-07 at 05:44 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath.
    I can actually imagine quite well how it would likely go but I cannot go into detail.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Necris Omega View Post
    I guess this doesn't really say that the gods aren't incompetent, so much as explain how they got that way. And they were flawed beings to start with - thus the Snarl and impetus for... everything. But from what we've seen of how they're shaped, it seems doubtful that the dectillion worlds or so they created would have lead to more positive developments than, say... dementia Odins.
    One of the few good posts ever about OoTS deities. Well done.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things. Obviously, if the Snarl were what Xykon was told it was, him having it would be bad, but he wouldn't actually take over the world, he'd blow up a few major population centers, build a big-ass tower to put a throne in and then be bored out of his skull again. Most people would truck on living as they always have while paying lip-service to the mad lich and with the added fear of being victim to his random wrath. Given the world they live in, and despite it being obvious wishful-thinking she came up with to justify her already-decided course of action, rather than the opposite, it's not that unlikely that a team of heroes would eventually arise to cast down the evil tyrant.
    He might try and devise an even more grandiose scheme, which may be achievable as ruler of the world and soemoen who has access to the Snarl. Trying to ascend to godhood himself might be what he tries to do. No idea how much destruction he might cause trying to do that.

    Also, even if he doesn't take much of an active hand in ruling, someone will rule the world, and there's every chance it will be a villain. Whether he actually installs a villain of his own choosing (like Redcloak), or simply takes a hands off approach and allows villains like Tarquin to pop up everywhere, it does seem unlikely he'd let any righteous ruler remain.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You know, I can't picture Xykon bothering to actually rule the world. In Gobnotopia he pretty much left Redcloak run things.
    For someone like Xykon, I think ruling is different from administration. Not in a trivial sense, either - when Xykon wanted his phylactery found, the whole city was put on it, immediately. If he wants to roll out and take your leadership with him, he will, and you better hope they have a plan for that, because he doesn't. He doesn't care about details, or prosperity, but he absolutely does care about being the area's ultimate power. You don't need to worry about him having armies from all his cities, sure. You just need to worry that there are no more armies against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Hell, even her concern that the Order might destroy the final Gate isn't that unreasonable when you remember that Roy once equated Xykon winning and the planet being literally destroyed (first page, bottom row).
    Is he wrong, though? Like he says, Xykon won't literally destroy the planet, but he'll kill its soul. You can hope the world keeps churning out PCs until he dies, but there's not clear reason why it would, once you get down to it, except that it's a genre expectation. If a few generations of the best heroes an adventure-friendly, good-friendly world have on offer don't beat him, a conflict-scarce, evil-friendly world isn't likely to manage it any time soon, either. And after a few generations, "ruled by an evil lich" will be the default state of the world. You can lean on evil fighting evil as a way to bring Xykon down, but by then the damage to the world is done, and your new boss won't change much.

    You'll see a lot more dwarven souls sent to Hel in that case. Not much honor in getting into feuds between the local evil warlords. Come to think of it, ending this world appears to be the option that liberates future dwarves to start with.

    Someone better work on a really big planeshift, once all is said and done.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    One of the few good posts ever about OoTS deities. Well done.
    Thank you.

    The gods of OotS are sentient, sure, but they're more slaves to their nature than perhaps their own followers. To that end, they're not "sentient" in the mortal sense, but in an unrelatable, cosmic sense that leaves them at the mercy of forces they, for all their phenomenal deific power, can do little to counteract. Even in relating to one another, their own natures requires them to tie their own hands with unyielding, inane and unadaptable rules, and there's no apparent way for them to overcome any of that.

    To subsist, they must have worshipers. To have worshipers is to be subject to those worshipers. And those worshipers shape their compulsions and natures such that they cannot be more than those worshipers define. Loki can only be Loki and can't be anything else, no matter what his chaotic little heart may desire. He's trapped in that role and all it entails. So's his daughter. So are all the gods. If power were a question of free will, they'd be anything but all powerful. They may be the personification of grand ideas and concepts, but in agency terms, they're less than people.

    "You are what you eat" applies very thoroughly to the gods. Perhaps ridiculously so. And these are same gods who at one point created a world of sentient junk food...

    Perhaps expecting reason and responsibility out of them is ... neither reasonable nor responsible.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1256 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I can actually imagine quite well how it would likely go but I cannot go into detail.
    Well-said. Well-not-said. (^_~)
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