Questionable Content XVIII: "That's only sort of good news"

[Wraith]

I'm disappointed that my previous suggestion that this would be yet another situation solved off-screen by internet randos appears to be true. Unfortunately, it still doesn't actually solve any of the problems - Roko knew from the start that using public opinion as leverage to get the AI recognised would just cause the company in question to temporarily abide, and then go back to making the AI's life miserable. Now the company knows that the AI non-profit is on to them, so they'll just do what they wanted anyway but they'll know to hide their tracks better.

Nothing has been solved. The AI still works for a crappy company who can fire them for any reason they choose, and NOW they have motivation to do so because the AI got Roko and her clowns involved to publicly humiliate them. Being associated with a group who slanders your company in a drunken viral video probably IS grounds to fire someone, AI or not. And when that happens, they STILL don't have a resolution to the fact that the AI is embodied in company property and will be immediately kicked out into cyber-space. The AI non-profit can try to claim that it was retaliatory as much as they like, but see above - THEY have provided reasonable grounds, even if they could afford a protracted court case.

[Willie the Duck]

It does seem that Roko is rather incredulous that this is working out to towards her goals as well, so it seems that even in-universe this is improbable. Perhaps the factory owners will eventually retaliate, and possibly lightning wouldn't strike twice if they tried victory by public shaming in this way again. Mind you, the factory won't be mentioned again regardless because all of this is in service of Roko's character journey, but I get the feeling that the implied message is less 'this is how to successfully effect change' and more 'Roko wants to do things by the rules, tilt at windmills, fight the good fight, and (based on that) oftentimes lose (since the world isn't fair); She finds out that when she (unintentionally) instead plays Dirt-Harry-level loose with the rules, she ends up getting the results she wants; oh what does a enterprising young idealist to do?'

[VoxRationis]

Nothing has been solved. The AI still works for a crappy company who can fire them for any reason they choose...

Well, the nice thing about union representation is that it often comes with protections against arbitrary dismissal.

Being associated with a group who slanders your company in a drunken viral video

True speech isn't slander, no matter how drunkenly slurred it is.

[The Glyphstone]

The legal line for slander/libel is a bit fuzzy, but IIRC is requires the claim to both be false and to proveably cause harm. The factory can't fulfill the first of those, because there is proof that Roko's drunken rant is factual. That's also why it can't be considered 'blackmail' - defending yourself against a legal accusation of slander by saying 'what we said is true, here is our proof' is perfectly valid.

[Keltest]

Frankly, on consideration, one wonders why, if they had solid proof, they didn't simply escalate things right away. It kind of calls into question Nelson's qualifications as a lawyer.

[Mechalich]

Frankly, on consideration, one wonders why, if they had solid proof, they didn't simply escalate things right away. It kind of calls into question Nelson's qualifications as a lawyer.

Hmm, that is curious. To expand, the National Labor Relations Act (which Jeph has mistakenly also referred to as the NLRB, which is the National Labor Relations Board, a government agency not a law), provides protections for employees attempting to unionize. One of the key protections is that it is illegal to retaliate against employees who do so, and retaliation is one of a small list of reasons why a company cannot simply fire an employee whenever they want - note that the baseline, in the US, is that employees can be fired without cause at any time, so-called 'at-will' employment.

However, retaliation is notoriously difficult to prove and the burden of proof is on the employee, not the company. Essentially the terminated employee has to sue on their own behalf. Now, Roko claims that, in this specific case the AI has them on record - presumably threatening termination in response to attempting to form a union. What this actually means is that someone in management was staggeringly incompetent and used explicit language in the wrong place (or perhaps forgot that an AI naturally records everything and can submit their memory in court), essentially giving the employee not only grounds to sue, but a clear victory in court if they chose to do so.

The AI, according to Roko, apparently chose not to sue in this case because they want to keep their job. This is not entirely implausible. Even a clear victory in a wrongful termination lawsuit is liable to have consequences for future employment elsewhere. Now, a semiconductor manufacturing concern is likely to have sufficient market capital that such things shouldn't matter, and of course, if an AI goes jobless it's not like they're at risk of starving, but these sorts of inhibitions impact ordinary human workers all the time.

[hungrycrow]

Well, we managed to have tension for all of two pages.

[Rakaydos]

I think there's a way for Jess to have his cake and eat it too, regarding political topics and courtroom resolutions, and the old QC we know and love.

Hamilton Cabinet Meetings. Epic Rap Battles of history.

Characters watching the procedings on TV in the first panel, and start summarizing what they watched, musically, on panel.

Perhaps Martin could make a podcast out of it.

[Vinyadan]

Damn, Nelson is a pink, cold, calculating Pintsize who thrives on chaos and emulation.

[SaintRidley]

I'm going to let it slide because it's a comic, but given my very recent experience, nah, this union fight would not be over by a long shot.

[Rodin]

I think our reaction to this non-apology is supposed to be "Yeah! Roko sticking it to THE MAN! WHOOO!", but in actuality it's making me actively dislike her. Author Filibuster much?

[Radar]

I think our reaction to this non-apology is supposed to be "Yeah! Roko sticking it to THE MAN! WHOOO!", but in actuality it's making me actively dislike her. Author Filibuster much?

Keep in mind this was very much not what she wanted to record for the public. She just vented her emotions and knew exactly that this would have been a really bad public statement and wanted to do the real take right after.

[Wraith]

An interesting point has been made on Reddit: If you didn't already know about Jeph's politics, would you view this current arc as pro- or anti-unionisation?

It's being asked in jest, but I can kind of see their point. The pro-unionisation group in the comic are idiots without training, experience or understanding. They're childishly naïve regarding the subject, rely on reactionary twitter-mobs to get anything done, and are now coming across as crude and unprofessional in the post-victory gloat. Success has been handed to them entirely by happenstance (again), barely at all because they were doing the right things in the right places.

Meanwhile, the (supposedly anti-union) company they sic'd the mob on has... What? Threatened retaliatory action that we haven't seen, with 'proof' that hasn't been shown, against a poorly defined victim that we haven't met - and who, from what we know of their species so far, might be yet another annoying pastel-coloured twerp in athleisurewear? Who politely put up with Beepatrice's literal song-and-dance routine despite having way better things to do? Who even agreed to meet with the non-profit in the first place, despite them having no legal authority? And have been magnanimous enough not to sue Roko for her previous statements, legitimately or not?

A lot of stuff has been said about this sketchy, evil corporation being evil and sketchy, but frankly I'm starting to feel a little bit sorry for them and the AI nonsense they have to put up with....

[Willie the Duck]

An interesting point has been made on Reddit: If you didn't already know about Jeph's politics, would you view this current arc as pro- or anti-unionisation?

Potentially pro-unionization. However, the whole 'unions and pro-union groups solve their solutions through poorly informed ____-leaning mobs' message seems like right out of the rhetorical playbook of those opposite what I believe to be be Jeph's political slant.

[Traab]

Potentially pro-unionization. However, the whole 'unions and pro-union groups solve their solutions through poorly informed ____-leaning mobs' message seems like right out of the rhetorical playbook of those opposite what I believe to be be Jeph's political slant.

Nah every side says the other side forms their solutions through poorly formed x leaning messages. After all, our side is the one thats correct, therefore any opposing viewpoints have to be based off flawed logic and emotional nonsense rather than facts and reason. Thats just rational really.

[Willie the Duck]

Nah every side says the other side forms their solutions through poorly formed x leaning messages. After all, our side is the one thats correct, therefore any opposing viewpoints have to be based off flawed logic and emotional nonsense rather than facts and reason. Thats just rational really.

Right, but it seems that Jeph is saying that HIS SIDE relies on poorly informed mobs to get their way.

[Cikomyr2]

An interesting point has been made on Reddit: If you didn't already know about Jeph's politics, would you view this current arc as pro- or anti-unionisation?

It's being asked in jest, but I can kind of see their point. The pro-unionisation group in the comic are idiots without training, experience or understanding. They're childishly naïve regarding the subject, rely on reactionary twitter-mobs to get anything done, and are now coming across as crude and unprofessional in the post-victory gloat. Success has been handed to them entirely by happenstance (again), barely at all because they were doing the right things in the right places.

Meanwhile, the (supposedly anti-union) company they sic'd the mob on has... What? Threatened retaliatory action that we haven't seen, with 'proof' that hasn't been shown, against a poorly defined victim that we haven't met - and who, from what we know of their species so far, might be yet another annoying pastel-coloured twerp in athleisurewear? Who politely put up with Beepatrice's literal song-and-dance routine despite having way better things to do? Who even agreed to meet with the non-profit in the first place, despite them having no legal authority? And have been magnanimous enough not to sue Roko for her previous statements, legitimately or not?

A lot of stuff has been said about this sketchy, evil corporation being evil and sketchy, but frankly I'm starting to feel a little bit sorry for them and the AI nonsense they have to put up with....

Rorschach's Labor rights

[Vinyadan]

I can tell you that the comic is pro pro-union people, because, unless I missed something, we have yet to see anyone from the big company. If it were anti-union, we would see the plight of those people, and them scrambling to stop the cascading, deleterious effects of unions.

At the same time, we haven't seen the workers, either. So it isn't strictly pro-labour. It's pro-people-who-are-pro-labour-unions.

Again, I am not following the comic too closely, so I might be missing something, but this isn't really Roko's battle. It's a worker's battle. Roko & friends are useful allies, but that's it. To tell the truth, it would make more sense as part of Roko's story if it were a somewhat minor issue she cares about among many issues she's working at, instead of being its own storyline. But, if it is to be the main story, the fight to unionise should be followed at the plant.

EDIT: the twitter people rushing in to save the day also are an example of this pro-pro-union attitude.

[Mechalich]

At the same time, we haven't seen the workers, either. So it isn't strictly pro-labour. It's pro-people-who-are-pro-labour-unions.

Again, I am not following the comic too closely, so I might be missing something, but this isn't really Roko's battle. It's a worker's battle. Roko & friends are useful allies, but that's it. To tell the truth, it would make more sense as part of Roko's story if it were a somewhat minor issue she cares about among many issues she's working at, instead of being its own storyline. But, if it is to be the main story, the fight to unionise should be followed at the plant.

Roko runs (somehow), an AI rights advocacy organization. Labor rights is definitely going to be part of that advocacy, perhaps even a majority of it since many AIs, by their very nature have no need for many of the other sorts of rights ordinary humans do. In this case, for instance, the AI in question lives in the assembly line. It doesn't have to worry about people treating it badly in the public sphere because it never goes there. This fight is very much Roko's, especially as the AI in question probably retained her organization as pro bono legal counsel - this is a common activity by NGOs in the US, as merely threatening to litigate some issue can open up negotiations.

That said, I agree that the absence of actual representation of either side of this debate is telling. There's a common critique of NGOs that they operate more to sustain themselves than actually solve problems (this is commonly said of government bureaucracies as well, and many NGOs are very much bureaucracy adjacent). The current story structure very much leans into this, and it is troubling.

To draw back even further, there's a fundamental conflict between Roko as a character and the comic's overall approach. Despite her occasional 'f*** all ya b*******' breakdowns - which is actually very regionally in character, she's the most MA person in the whole comic - Roko is a serious person who directs her energy towards serious issues. She wants and needs her work to be fulfilling and important, not just to take home a paycheck. This is a major departure from basically everyone else in the comic. Even the successful people like Marigold and Sven don't find much meaning in their work, both having openly denigrated what they do. The theme and mood of basically everything Roko hopes to do with her life clashes heavily with the rest of the comic.

[Wraith]

It's pro-people-who-are-pro-labour-unions.

That's a pretty interesting insight, thank you. Almost as though actually being in a union isn't the point, but rather for people to see it said that unions are good. That certainly fits with the "junk food" approach that Jeph has taken with other heavy topics like LGBT and civil rights - few details, but the vaguely 'feel good' vibe of seeing it mentioned. I would strongly suspect that the concept of a bad union - and there are some, either through corruption or incompetence - would never occur.

The theme and mood of basically everything Roko hopes to do with her life clashes heavily with the rest of the comic.

I get the feeling that Roko is stuck between wish-fulfillment and comedic failure. A lot of the characters have - especially in the last year or so - gotten what they wanted with relatively little conflict, and that's why Roko succeeds in her current tasks. At the same time, it's hard to write "and then all AI had civil rights forever" as a plot, so often she's got to fail at her big goals and settle for minor ones, or ones achieved by other people for the same ends.

If Roko could just outright fail, it could be played for dark comedy, or at least wacky hijinks as she has to scramble to fix an increasingly bizarre situation. If she could outright succeed, then we'd get a significant event surrounded by lots of worldbuilding as AI culture gets fleshed out. But instead we get the status quo, which is that a character can't fail and suffer, but success can't change anything significant. "Insignificant/accidental successes and then swear about them" isn't very fulfilling as an arc

[Mechalich]

I get the feeling that Roko is stuck between wish-fulfillment and comedic failure. A lot of the characters have - especially in the last year or so - gotten what they wanted with relatively little conflict, and that's why Roko succeeds in her current tasks. At the same time, it's hard to write "and then all AI had civil rights forever" as a plot, so often she's got to fail at her big goals and settle for minor ones, or ones achieved by other people for the same ends.

If Roko could just outright fail, it could be played for dark comedy, or at least wacky hijinks as she has to scramble to fix an increasingly bizarre situation. If she could outright succeed, then we'd get a significant event surrounded by lots of worldbuilding as AI culture gets fleshed out. But instead we get the status quo, which is that a character can't fail and suffer, but success can't change anything significant. "Insignificant/accidental successes and then swear about them" isn't very fulfilling as an arc

There's also the issue that location works against the comic. Northampton, MA is the most liberal city in one of the most liberal states in the country. This limits the opportunity for local level activities, doubly so since Jeph has previously established that there is little, if any at all, anti-AI prejudice in the city. Yes some kids made fun of Bubbles that one time, but that was mostly because her body violated typical human appearance norms not anything to do with her AI status. A small 3-person NGO should be focused almost entirely on local issues, but there simply are not going to be a lot of issues of this kind in the local context - especially not issues that don't ultimately boil down to 'we don't have enough money' like May's did. Even this labor thing wasn't especially AI-related, it was just a garden-variety unionization conflict at the core.

[Delicious Taffy]

I'm on Yay's side with this latest strip. A drunk sleepover has a lot more potential for being interesting, whereas the whole vague union thing is really boring and doesn't have Millefeuille shouting about butts.

[Vinyadan]

Roko runs (somehow), an AI rights advocacy organization. Labor rights is definitely going to be part of that advocacy, perhaps even a majority of it since many AIs, by their very nature have no need for many of the other sorts of rights ordinary humans do. In this case, for instance, the AI in question lives in the assembly line. It doesn't have to worry about people treating it badly in the public sphere because it never goes there. This fight is very much Roko's, especially as the AI in question probably retained her organization as pro bono legal counsel - this is a common activity by NGOs in the US, as merely threatening to litigate some issue can open up negotiations.

I understand what you mean, but I just think Roko is ultimately secondary in this fight*. I think that her fight as a leader of an NGO should be to keep it running in the face of adversities that might come from inside (quarrels, jading, loss of confidence) or outside (lack of funding). Nelson's fight would be to win the cases and apply leverage. I'm not sure of what Beeps's fight would be: improve her act as an ambassador, I guess.

To tell the truth, it's pretty odd that we didn't see Roko and Beep's presentation. It would have added a lot to the situation (showing the bad guys!), and opened up a lot of options in how to present Roko's relationship with Beep. It would also have been a good chance to explain if it's really a single AI who wants to become an union unto itself, and some general info about the situation at the plant.

*this is probably an effect of her never meeting the AI of interest. Otherwise, I would understand the transferral of the fight from the worker to the representative.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the presentation was meant to be a Noodle Incident we know Beeps improvised a song and dance routine, but keeping it offscreen lets us imagine the whole thing and its probably funnier that way.

[Wildstag]

I think the presentation was meant to be a Noodle Incident we know Beeps improvised a song and dance routine, but keeping it offscreen lets us imagine the whole thing and its probably funnier that way.

Probably, but it's also in the same story where 90% of the set-up is offscreen as well, including the subject of the case. Comes off less as an intentional-Noodle-Incident and more like laziness.

[Traab]

At first I thought the seethe thing was roko flinching in fear that she may have ranted a little too much at the omnipotent being.

[Kish]

Jeph, I'm vastly more sympathetic to your politics than to this "everyone secretly wants to drink" thing.

[Mordokai]

Jeph, I'm vastly more sympathetic to your politics than to this "everyone secretly wants to drink" thing.

You're right, most of would prefer to not be secretive about it.

[Eldan]

I got mildly drunk exactly once in my life, out of curiosity, and found the experience very unpleasant. Never had more than about half a drink once or twice a year since then.

[Willie the Duck]

Jeph, I'm vastly more sympathetic to your politics than to this "everyone secretly wants to drink" thing.

Huh, that was not my takeaway at all. I saw Yay, our resident 'loudly and performatively better than you' character (who people generally seeing getting shown to be not so above it all) declaring themselves to be above something and then it being shown that they aren't.

Their specific example speaks to me. I'm curious what it'd be like to lapse in my sobriety -- in about the same way I'm curious as to what it is like to be in a major automotive collision.