The Book Thread

[Wookieetank]

Finished up The Girl Who Played with Fire over the weekend, and at least it ended on strong note, despite the very meandering first 2/3rds of the book. Overall I enjoyed it, but wasn't as good as The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Went straight into The Girl who Kicked the Hornet's Nest, and it has much better pacing so far. Already 50 pages in and solidly hooked.

[Ionathus]

Speaking of, stuck inside by bad weather, didn't have time to donate it yet and my other book is one I have to read slowly, so I read Harrow the Ninth yesterday.

Tl;dr: 6/10, more enjoyable than not, might easily be a few points better. Chuckled once.

Hooray! Three cheers for bad weather

Specifically, still hate the second person. Having it explained doesn't help, so I read those chapters kind of permanently angrily sneering at the book and daring it to go on. Break chapters are better to read, even if they are ultimately pointless as they were building up a mystery that pointed itself out in neon letters in the first chapter, then lead to some mysteries I had already figured out in the last book and didn't think were mysteries. Still engagingly written, characters work.

Can I ask what the "mystery that pointed itself out in neon letters" was? Are you talking about

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Harrow replacing "Gideon" with "Ortus" in her brain and having to slowly work that out? I agree that's pretty obvious from the get-go - I didn't feel like it was intended as a mystery for the audience; even though most people usually start Harrow going "what the hell is going on" because of that switcheroo, they still kinda know what's really going on so the main mystery isn't "what did she do" so much as "why did she do it" and "when will it be undone." I enjoyed that journey since I thought about it in those terms, but if it felt like the book was genuinely trying to spin a mystery that you'd already guessed, I can see how that would feel unimpressive.

They are all ****ing children, even if they are ten thousand years old,

IMO, this line should've been on the back of the book, in place of "the necromancers are back, and they're gayer than ever."

Emperor's funny, though, at least once.

Very curious to know where your single chuckle was placed!

Specifics:

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Figured out that A.L. was the emperor's cavalier when reading the cast list before starting to read. Thought he probably once had one last book, assumed corpse in the tomb was said cavalier. Mainly surprised that his lyctors didn't know, felt so obvious.

Harrow's mind being broken, sure. Didn't figure out it was to preserve Gideon's soul, I assumed it was to spare Harrow grief, mainly, and keep her somewhat functional, and that Gideon's soul would show up in some other way. Still. It didn't feel like her mind being altered actually lead to much. Her personality isn't meaningfully different and the flashbacks aren't super interesting. I feel like those chapters could mostly have been left out without losing anything.

Gideon being the emperor's child... didn't feel that was sufficiently foreshadowed (if at all?) so it's mostly "huh, neat", not earth shattering. In hindsight, she had a mysterious heritage, so it had to be someone important, but it could have been a lyctor or someone from outside the Nine Houses , to lead into those politics.

Don't think there's anything else to say?

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Hmm, do the lyctors say they didn't know the corpse in the Locked Tomb was A.L.? I thought they all collectively knew that's where she had wound up from the start. The denouement in Harrow is very jumbled and the lyctors and John all talk in vague half-thoughts, so I can't remember what parts of the exposition were from the end of Harrow vs. somewhere in Nona.

I don't think A.L. being John's cav was meant to be any kind of surprise or mystery - like you said, it's formatted right there in the cast list at the start. I think Harrow & Ianthe are meant to be the only ones who don't know that fact at the start of the book.

Appreciate your thoughts as always! You've come at it from a unique perspective that's made it fun to talk about.

[Eldan]

Quoting from memory:

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"Hello I'm not ****ing dead, I'm dad."

Apart from that, I'm considering buy the next one. Mainly because I want to know what the eff the emperor is on about, because his actions still don't make a lick of sense.

[Ionathus]

Quoting from memory:

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"Hello I'm not ****ing dead, I'm dad."

Haha yeah, I think that's my favorite of the book too. It really landed in that moment of the story for me.

Apart from that, I'm considering buy the next one. Mainly because I want to know what the eff the emperor is on about, because his actions still don't make a lick of sense.

You will absolutely get to learn what the eff the emperor is on about. You actually get straight answers for once (more than I expected, honestly)! Whether you like them or not will be a different story, but I was very satisfied by that part of Nona - it might have even been the most compelling bit for me.

I wasn't going to push but I am glad to hear you're thinking about buying Nona! Very curious to hear your thoughts if you do.

[IthilanorStPete]

Quoting from memory:

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"Hello I'm not ****ing dead, I'm dad."

Yeah, that's a great line.

Spoiler: Harrow the Ninth discussion

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I agree with Ionathus that Alecto being Jod's cav isn't supposed to be much of a surprise. I kind of figured that on my first read-through, though I didn't think about her being part of a "perfect Lyctorhood" with Jod until it came up at the end of the book.

Harrow the Ninth's my favorite of the three books released so far, mostly because I find a lot of Harrow's struggles incredibly relatable. I love how Muir mixes the fantastical elements with the struggles of day-to-day living:

You thought that you might gather up his ashes in a box and keep them. You imagined what kind of construct might be made from the bricks and mortar of the bones of a sacred Hand, a man who in an act of sacred transgression had used another human soul to fire the ravenous battery of his heart. You thought about sleeping for six whole hours a night, in a bed alone.

(bolding mine)

And this is just a stab to the heart:

You were so afraid she might touch you. You were so afraid anyone might touch you. You had always been afraid of anyone touching you, and had not known your longing flinch was so obvious to those who tried it.

Apart from that, I'm considering buy the next one. Mainly because I want to know what the eff the emperor is on about, because his actions still don't make a lick of sense.

Nona the Ninth answers some of the questions about Jod's motivations, but definitely not all of them. As for whether to buy it...at least it's not second-person narration? But the choice of POV is probably going to frustrate you, albeit in a different way than Gideon's narration; for a lot of the book, they're sort of peripherally aware of the main events going on, but not fully engaged. NtN is also when I started really having issues with the worldbuilding. There's a lot of good stuff in it, though, so...up to you.

Incidentally, if you do decide to pick up NtN, make sure you read the short story As Yet Unsent first. It's included as an extra in the paperback and ebook editions of Harrow the Ninth, it's also on Tor.com here. It's pretty important for setting things up going into NtN.



EDIT after seeing Ionathus's reply:

Spoiler: Nona the Ninth spoilers

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You will absolutely get to learn what the eff the emperor is on about.

I think we got some answers, but certainly not all; there's everything with the Tower and the demons that came up in NtN that isn't yet explained, and they seem pretty key to Jod's post-Resurrection concerns.

[Ionathus]

EDIT after seeing Ionathus's reply:

Spoiler: Nona the Ninth spoilers

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I think we got some answers, but certainly not all; there's everything with the Tower and the demons that came up in NtN that isn't yet explained, and they seem pretty key to Jod's post-Resurrection concerns.

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I took Eldan's original statement to imply that they wanted to know John's backstory/motivations/reasons for doing what he does, which I feel are laid out pretty clearly in NtN. But yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, especially at the end of the book, but those felt like different questions to me.

I kind of disagree with Ithilanor -- As Yet Unsent is helpful, and especially gives you some fascinating insights into the Cohort, but I don't believe it's actually necessary before jumping into Nona.

[IthilanorStPete]

I kind of disagree with Ithilanor -- As Yet Unsent is helpful, and especially gives you some fascinating insights into the Cohort, but I don't believe it's actually necessary before jumping into Nona.

The main thing I'm thinking of is that it develops Corona a fair bit, which comes into play in Nona. The stuff about the Cohort, the social structures around the necro/cav relationship, and Judith's character development are less necessary (though interesting).

[Ionathus]

The main thing I'm thinking of is that it develops Corona a fair bit, which comes into play in Nona. The stuff about the Cohort, the social structures around the necro/cav relationship, and Judith's character development are less necessary (though interesting).

I see what you mean. I do still think Corona's situation in Nona becomes clear pretty quickly no matter whether you've read the supplements or not. Though of course I'm always in favor of reading the appendices!

[Sapphire Guard]

Seal of the Worm, Adrian Tchaikovsky. It's interesting because while I have read the others, it has been a long time, so some of the twists became extra twistier.

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I had completely forgotten the Sea-Kinden existed, so when they suddenly marched out of the sea I had no idea they weren't the Worm. I barely remember what happens in that book.

I had also forgotten that Collegium had fallen.

[LibraryOgre]

One thing I love about the Vlad Taltos books is he's just casually friends with some of the most powerful people in the Empire. Like, yeah, Sethra Lavode is coming to my wedding. I teleported up to Castle Black a couple times to get help on debt collection. On one level, the Dragon Heir is my sister-in-law.

[Melayl]

One thing I love about the Vlad Taltos books is he's just casually friends with some of the most powerful people in the Empire. Like, yeah, Sethra Lavode is coming to my wedding. I teleported up to Castle Black a couple times to get help on debt collection. On one level, the Dragon Heir is my sister-in-law.

And he's on a first-name basis with the Empress's boyfriend.

It is an excellent series. I've read it about 25 times now. Well, the first 8 or 9 books, anyway.

[Mx.Silver]

With my book club homework done for the month, I have some space for some light reading so I decided to pop-over to my local library and pick up something. Nothing too long, obviously, since being a library book I'd need to return it in a few weeks.

The book I ended-up leaving with was War and Peace.

[Metastachydium]

some light reading

Nothing too long

War and Peace.

I must now ask: what's your usual fare?

[Eldan]

I must now ask: what's your usual fare?

Das Kapital.

[Mx.Silver]

I must now ask: what's your usual fare?

I may have been deliberately ironic with some statements
Although, to be fair, Eldan's not entirely incorrect either

More seriously though, War and Peace is probably more accessibly written than you might expect. It's also more comedic in parts than might be expected too, although I haven't quite finished Volume 1 yet so it's still early days.

It is long though. I don't want to undersell that. By word count it's at least 20% longer than the complete Lord of the Rings. The paperback edition I borrowed is halfway to being a cube and weighs more than most of the hardback books I've got.
Anyway, I'm hoping to put a proper dent in it over the weekend at least and then see how we go from there.

[Metastachydium]

I may have been deliberately ironic with some statements
Although, to be fair, Eldan's not entirely incorrect either

More seriously though, War and Peace is probably more accessibly written than you might expect.

Heh. I was bracing for Finnegans Wake or something in that weight class, really. Tolstoi's style never mixed very well with me, though, I must admit.

[Mx.Silver]

Heh. I was bracing for Finnegans Wake or something in that weight class, really. Tolstoi's style never mixed very well with me, though, I must admit.

It should probably be noted that I'm a Krasznahorkai fan and his work, while not being quite Finnegans Wake level, can get pretty high up there in terms of difficulty. So, y'know, probably keep that in mind if I make any more statements about War and Peace's accessibility

[Metastachydium]

It should probably be noted that I'm a Krasznahorkai fan

I used to hold his writings in quite the high regard myself; I can't help but feel that the "long sentence" method of his is growing increasingly tired and conceited in his later works, however, and my, I better not even start listing the many levels at which there is no good excuse for the very existence of Baron Wenckheim's Homecoming.

So, y'know, probably keep that in mind if I make any more statements about War and Peace's accessibility

But yeah, I will keep that in mind.

[Mx.Silver]

I used to hold his writings in quite the high regard myself; I can't help but feel that the "long sentence" method of his is growing increasingly tired and conceited in his later works, however, and my, I better not even start listing the many levels at which there is no good excuse for the very existence of Baron Wenckheim's Homecoming.

Regrettably I still haven't been able to get a hold of Spadework for a Palace, Chasing Homer or The World Goes On yet, so I can't really speak to too much of his later output, but I suppose that after 'The Rebuilding of the Ise Shrine' from Seiobo There Below any further sentence stretching work is going to seem like a downgrade
I did kind of enjoy Baron Wenckheim's Homecoming, but I would agree it kind of lacks something from the earlier two "Hungarian" novels¹ although I never quite put my finger on what specifically that was (it might just be a little too long, honestly). I'd still probably take it over Destruction and Sorrow Beneath the Heavens, although to be fair it's debatible how much that one counts as a novel to begin with.


Back on the Tolstoy wagon: have made into Volume 3 of War and Peace, aka the part where it reaches 1812. Really getting into the meat of things now. Almost regret this being a library copy, because this would probably have made for a decent Let's Read thread but hey-ho.


¹Satantango and The Melancholy of Resistence, for anyone unaware. Not a series, but linked in that they're all set in Hungarian settlements with a sense of vaguely defined real localised apocalypse hanging over them.

[LibraryOgre]

Finishing Tsalmoth had me pick up Jhereg again.

[warty goblin]

Been reading quite a bit, but not much to say about it.

A Sorcerer of Atlantis by John Shirley. Decent modern S&S in the form of three closely linked novellas. The first is the most fun, particularly the first half, which is an amusing picaresque of misfortune. However later on it makes the mistake of tying the characters to a single location, which sadly limits the scope for weirdness. Then it makes the double mistake of getting overly invested in the characters rather than focusing on adventure - I don't read S&S for cute happy couple moments, I read it for escapades involving giant snakes, ancient devilry, and lots of peril. Fine, but lacks verve, completely skippable even if your into this sort of thing.

There's a seemingly unrelated fourth novella in my copy of Sorcerer of Atlantis, but I bailed on that. It seems like a sort of HP Lovecraft Dreamlands inspired deal, but robbed of Lovecraft's heliotrope prose its very meh.

Waco Rising, a very well written and even handed account of the Waco siege. I found this extremely compelling and stayed up way too late to finish it.

We Believe the Children, a history and reflection on the Satanic Panic of the early 1980s. Again very good and quite thoughtful, although less intense.

Gave up on Lethe by Tricia Sullivan. I was down for the weirdness, but the characters weren't engaging and the plot was going nowhere.

Still plodding through Bismarck a Design and Operational History. The writing has improved after the somewhat muddled design history, and it does a very good job of laying out the context in which the Kriegsmarine was operating. If you want the authoritative source for all Bismarck related information you could possibly want, this is it. If you want an accurate enough account of Rheinubung, you should read Pursuit by Ludovic Kennedy.

[halfeye]

Still plodding through Bismarck a Design and Operational History. The writing has improved after the somewhat muddled design history, and it does a very good job of laying out the context in which the Kriegsmarine was operating. If you want the authoritative source for all Bismarck related information you could possibly want, this is it. If you want an accurate enough account of Rheinubung, you should read Pursuit by Ludovic Kennedy.

It's facinating to compare the pre-nazi designed "pocket battleships" with the nazi designed Hipper class.

[Batcathat]

Seems like I never actually write here about what I'm reading myself. So, lately I've been alternating between reading Jim Butcher's Codex Alera and Becky Chambers' Monk and Robot books (though mostly the former, on account of Codex Alera being six fairly thick books and Monk and Robot being, so far, two fairly thin ones).

I liked both series a lot, which isn't much of a surprise since both Chambers and Butcher are among my favorite authors, though I didn't think it was either author's best work. While reading them at the same time wasn't something I planned, they did complement each other nicely, with Codex Alera being quite action heavy and Monk and Robot being more philosophical. I thought both series had some interesting world building, which is always nice.

[Taevyr]

I've been thinking about getting Codex Alera, as I enjoyed the Dresden Files quite well. Would you recommend it/have any specific things you'd say to someone considering it?

[Rynjin]

Honestly I'd say Codex is overall a better series than Dresden Files (as someone who likes that series). Having a more focused through-line plot for all 6 books helps with actually becoming invested in the plot rather than just each individual adventure.

[Mechalich]

Codex Alera is a fun fantasy action romp. It's decidedly not deep and the world it imagines really, really doesn't hold together if you think about it at all, but it mostly moves fast enough that you don't need to care. In a lot of ways it's the literary equivalent of a sleek action movie (it would, IMO, make for a pretty great comic or animated adaptation) and as long as you accept that it's all in fun, it's perfectly fine. Just don't expect more than that.

[Batcathat]

I would definitely recommend it, though while I can see Rynjin's point, I personally prefer the Dresden Files. The two series are fairly different, in both setting, plot and (at least to some degree) style. While not completely free of cliches (Farmboy with a mysterious past in a fantasy setting goes on an adventure? Never seen that before. ) most of both the plot and the setting feels pretty fresh.

[warty goblin]

It's facinating to compare the pre-nazi designed "pocket battleships" with the nazi designed Hipper class.

Ayup. The Deutschlands were oddities built to exploit a loophole in the treaty system that mostly tried to meet their legal requirements but came in a bit over. Lots of design innovation targeted at a concept of cruiser warfare that was, if not already obsolete, would become so incredibly quickly. Also they touched off another naval arms race Germany was even less capable of winning than the last one, so that's kind of an issue. The Hippers were bog standard treaty heavy cruisers afflicted with a serious case of fascist gigantism - no better than equivalent British or French ships but somehow substantially heavier.

Anyway, switched from modern imitation sword and sorcery to the real deal, a collection of Henry Kuttner's Elak of Atlantis stories. I remain substantially convinced that a modern person is really just not capable of the sort of super dense and extremely rapid pace of the better pulp authors of the 30s and 40s, modern standards for things like character development and foreshadowing inevitably creep in and slow things down. The thing is good pulp of this type runs on a deal where the main characters have pretty fixed abilities and personalities, but everything around them can be made up more or less on the fly, and this just isn't how people do things now. There's an entire section towards the climax of the first story here for instance which takes place in a realm populated by dead gods, nothing prior to this hints that such a place exists, or that you can get there, or what the rules are. But our hero ends up there and its a load of fun, so long as you're willing to strap in for the ride.

(Kuttner, for those curious, married C. L. Moore of Jirel of Jiory and Northwest Smith fame in 1940. The first Elak story predates that, but postdates Black God's Kiss, and there's more than a touch of Jirel's basement hell realm in this. After 1940 the two seem to have written a lot together, so it's pretty much impossible to separate who exactly wrote what after that by and large.)


Also reading William Gibson's Count Zero, which is fun. The prose requires a lot of attention, as things are introduced before they are explained, or else left up to the reader to just interpret. I rather like this, as it demands attention and leaves room for the reader. I find a good deal of modern prose tends to overexplain to the point of near redundance, which is boring, leads me to skim-read, and pretty much leaves no room for the reader's imagination. If everything is described in great detail, I don't get to picture it, which means it captures less of my imagination than something less explicit.

[Mx.Silver]

Also reading William Gibson's Count Zero, which is fun. The prose requires a lot of attention, as things are introduced before they are explained, or else left up to the reader to just interpret. I rather like this, as it demands attention and leaves room for the reader. I find a good deal of modern prose tends to overexplain to the point of near redundance, which is boring, leads me to skim-read, and pretty much leaves no room for the reader's imagination. If everything is described in great detail, I don't get to picture it, which means it captures less of my imagination than something less explicit.

Yeah, I've run into a fair amount of more modern books that start to feel like they're more a transcript for the film/tv show that's playing in the writer's head (something which I've bored a number of aquaintances by going on about it over the years).

[GloatingSwine]

I would definitely recommend it, though while I can see Rynjin's point, I personally prefer the Dresden Files. The two series are fairly different, in both setting, plot and (at least to some degree) style. While not completely free of cliches (Farmboy with a mysterious past in a fantasy setting goes on an adventure? Never seen that before. ) most of both the plot and the setting feels pretty fresh.

Codex Alera is not only not free of cliches it is intentionally cliche central. It was originally specifically started to win a forum argument to prove that good execution mattered more than good ideas. And Jim Butcher didn't even get to choose the ideas, he asked for two overdone ideas and got given "Lost Roman Legion" and "Pokemon".

And turned it into a publishable novel.

Then he added Werewolves and the Zerg.