The Book Thread

[Eldan]

Because reading one book at a time is too dull, I also started the archeologically old Raven: Swordmistress of Chaos, which is a sword and sorcery novel from the late seventies.

That sounds like it's worth it just for the title.

[Ionathus]

Finally started on Gideon the Ninth, after it got a lot of discussion in this thread at some point last year...Anyway, looks like plot is going to happen in the next chapter, I'll be back with more opinions then.[/I]

Honestly kind of surprised anyone picked up the book based on discussion here. Obviously I was making a case for it but I definitely felt in the minority.

Anyway - hooray! Excited for your thoughts. Always fun to hear a new reader's take on the series.

[Eldan]

Honestly kind of surprised anyone picked up the book based on discussion here. Obviously I was making a case for it but I definitely felt in the minority.

Anyway - hooray! Excited for your thoughts. Always fun to hear a new reader's take on the series.

I occasionally like picking up something that is controversial, rather than universally praised. And I think that book had pretty much the most lively discussion of anything in the last year.

Also, currently, I think I'm mainly here for the worldbuilding questions. Like, if these people are so focused on armies and warcraft, who exactly are they fighting, and if these planets are so horrible, why is anyone staying here? (I also can't really get a grip on a lot of it yet. I find it very hard to imagine the scale of things, so far. This apparent planetary noble house seems to consist of one small subterranean outpost with a dozen retainers and a lot of undead, but then they also make references to armies elsewhere and I see no way they could supply those.)

[Ionathus]

I occasionally like picking up something that is controversial, rather than universally praised. And I think that book had pretty much the most lively discussion of anything in the last year.

I like that approach. My usual method is to pick off my overlong list of friends' recommendations - it keeps the quality pretty consistent which is important when I don't get (read: make ) many chances to read. Plus, I've noticed that I attach a lot of weight to book suggestions: if somebody close to me strongly recommends something, I make a conscious effort to read it as a way of getting to know them better and showing that I value their opinion. Vice versa as well, though I often have to remember not everyone feels as strongly as I do, and I have to work to not feel hurt when they don't treat a book gift/suggestion as sacred.

Also a drawback of my approach is that it's rare for me to get something that's really all that different. My friends have fairly homogenous tastes so I wind up reading within a pretty narrow band of genres and writing styles. It would be fun to pick up a polarizing book to "see what all the fuss is about."

Also, currently, I think I'm mainly here for the worldbuilding questions. Like, if these people are so focused on armies and warcraft, who exactly are they fighting, and if these planets are so horrible, why is anyone staying here? (I also can't really get a grip on a lot of it yet. I find it very hard to imagine the scale of things, so far. This apparent planetary noble house seems to consist of one small subterranean outpost with a dozen retainers and a lot of undead, but then they also make references to armies elsewhere and I see no way they could supply those.)

Without any spoilers, Gideon The Ninth contains a lot of worldbuilding but probably not in the directions you expect. You'll get bits and pieces of the big picture but the focus of the first book is...narrower? than the whole Cohort, the warfare, etc. It starts small with the personal experiences of its characters, and then the scope expands in books 2 & 3. I was personally very happy with that progression, but I know some people were turned off by it (i.e. feeling like the big picture stuff is half-baked).

[Eldan]

It does feel half-baked, yes. I assumed that was because I was at the beginning, but if it is not laid out, that's a definite minus. If there is strange worldbuilding, it should be either explained or a clear mystery that is part of the experience. If there is a warrior nobility, there should be a war, or at least a past war.

[IthilanorStPete]

@Eldan: Even speaking as a fan of the Locked Tomb books, the kind of worldbuilding you're talking about is an ongoing frustration of mine. I think it works ok in GtN (the Ninth House is very atypical of the Houses, and the focus is pretty narrow), but the loosely sketched-out description of the Empire continues to be somewhat annoying as the series progresses.

[warty goblin]

That sounds like it's worth it just for the title.

Oh it is. And if the title doesn't tell you exactly the type of trash you're dealing with, the cover definitely will

[Eldan]

Oh it is. And if the title doesn't tell you exactly the type of trash you're dealing with, the cover definitely will

And that tagline. *chef's kiss*.

[Ionathus]

Somebody fetch me that Pratchett quote about sending the author to have a cold shower and a lie down!

[Eldan]

I don't understand Gideon. From the basic setup -security cuff, belongs to the house, trying to escape - and zhe general aesthetics off the place, one would assume sone kind of slavery. Except... she declares she's depressed and then is just left alone to sulk in her room for a week. That's just an annoying moody teenager.

[Ionathus]

I don't understand Gideon. From the basic setup -security cuff, belongs to the house, trying to escape - and zhe general aesthetics off the place, one would assume sone kind of slavery. Except... she declares she's depressed and then is just left alone to sulk in her room for a week. That's just an annoying moody teenager.

Oh, she's definitely a slave - an indentured servant, technically - but it's more of the "where are you going to go?" style of captivity. The whole Ninth House feeds off gloom and decay and inevitability, they don't need to torture compliance out of her or work her to the bone...after all, wait long enough in a necromancer's kingdom, and everyone becomes the perfect servant eventually!

[Eldan]

Still. She's being clothed and fed for apparently doing jack **** except try to escape and insult and threaten her mistress and I don't get why.

[Bohandas]

I read one of the later editions which has a bunch of endnotes where he points out a bunch of things in the text which were either ambiguous, out of date, or in error. The errors I remember are that one of the prisoner's dilemma strategies which he said was stable turned out to actually be meta-stable, and that someone discovered a viable model for the sexual-selection handicap principle, which he had wagered would be shown to be unstable.

I'm onto reading "Blind Watchmaker" now. One minor thing that bugs me more than it should is that in it Dawkins makes two pedantic statements and one otherwise uncontroversial statement, which when taken together make a contradiction. The first bit of pedantry a statement to the effect that birds and mammals should properly be classed as reptiles because they are descended from reptiles and that more generally things are supposed to be classified by descent (basically, the entirety of chapter 10), the second bit of pedantry is that whales aren;t fish because they are mammals, and the third otherwise innocuous statement is the phrase "modern fish, other than sharks" in chapter 4. This last part demonstrates that he does not define "fish" to specifically mean the ray finned fish (and nor does he define them specifically as the sharks). Given this we have a definition of fish that includes the last common ancestor of both the bony and carilaginous fish, and therefore all the bony fish, including the lobe-fins, and therefore, by the monophyletic clades argument, also the reptiles, birds, and mammals.

EDIT:
Unless he means to define "fish" exactly as class Chondrichthyes

Upon reading further he later says that there is indeed a place in bioscience for phenotypic taxonony, as long as you make it clear that that's what you're doing

[IthilanorStPete]

Still. She's being clothed and fed for apparently doing jack **** except try to escape and insult and threaten her mistress and I don't get why.

What chapter are you on, Eldan? There are a few different reasons Harrow's being somewhat tolerant of Gideon - some are explicitly stated soon enough, some are implied, and there are some character-related reasons that are revealed throughout the book.

[Eldan]

Seven. They just left the planet. I get that she's apparently incredibly good with a sword, but that feels just kinda wankish.

[warty goblin]

And that tagline. *chef's kiss*.

It is exactly what it looks like, but somehow better. By which I mean it's trash, it's obviously trash, but it's fun trash, you know?

I don't understand Gideon. From the basic setup -security cuff, belongs to the house, trying to escape - and zhe general aesthetics off the place, one would assume sone kind of slavery. Except... she declares she's depressed and then is just left alone to sulk in her room for a week. That's just an annoying moody teenager.

I don't think Gideon is a book that's enormously concerned with making sense and building a coherent world outside of the two main characters. Either dumbass teen lesbian drama with a background that's not as zany as it thinks it is something that works for you, or it isn't. Since I got to the end, decided I had zero investment, and haven't been remotely tempted by the sequels, I think I fall into the 'it isn't' category.

(I'm generally totally fine with fantasy that runs purely on atmosphere; I read Tanith Lee, and none of her best stuff even comes close to making sense in a 'why are things this way and not that way?' sort of way. But Lee was also arguably the strongest prose stylist working in fantasy in the last sixty years, and her more mood driven works are explicitly these dream logic tone poems about feeling and fracturing identity, they aren't supposed to make sense in a realist way. I don't think Muir is anywhere close to Lee in terms of prose ability, and to me at least Gideon did not lean nearly hard enough into stylism or being stylish and weird enough to make its non-setting work as a tone poem.)

[Eldan]

Mm. I just leafed through the appendix which contains some worldbuilding and at some point, comparison to Gormenghast is made. Which... no. Just no.

[IthilanorStPete]

Seven. They just left the planet. I get that she's apparently incredibly good with a sword, but that feels just kinda wankish.

Gotcha. From the info you have at this point, I'd say the relevant additional bits are that Harrow really needs to show up with a cavalier in front of the other Houses and that her only other option is Aiglamene, who's in her 80's and is one of the few people who can be trusted to hold down the fort at the Ninth. (And it's not like Harrow was thrilled about this in the first place)

[Eldan]

Yes, but that is after the inciting incident, when they were desperate for more retainers. No one knew that was coming, why was she kept around before that.

[IthilanorStPete]

Yes, but that is after the inciting incident, when they were desperate for more retainers. No one knew that was coming, why was she kept around before that.

Ah, I get what you're saying. I'm pretty sure Gideon was left to sulk around because Harrow and Aiglamene were already considering sending Gideon with Harrow after Ortus and his mother took off in the shuttle; I'm pretty sure Gideon would've been (and historically was) treated more roughly without that.

[Ionathus]

I’ve been trying to hold back on responding because I don’t want to give a blow-by-blow commentary on it. I do appreciate your updates though!

I’ll say this: I had the same questions you had at this point, especially around why Gideon’s behavior is tolerated and why the Ninth House is the way it is. Those questions will be answered if you keep reading. I can’t speak for others, but I found the answers satisfying.

[Rodin]

As I recall, my primary problem with Gideon the 9th was that I couldn't understand why anyone would put up with Gideon's behaviour and doubly couldn't understand why Gideon and Harrow would put up with each other. I wasn't a huge fan of the answers given and found Harrow to be a particularly toxic personality.

Spoiler

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Which is why I bowed out when I found out that the sequel was going to focus on Harrow.

Which is a shame, because the central mystery of the first book is pretty darn cool. I really like powerful warrior closed-circle mysteries where the hard part is getting all these incredibly scary people to not kill each other until the traitor/murderer is found. That part of the story is pretty well done.

Edit: On further consideration I should put a non-spoiler version of what I wrote. The central plot of the first novel was pretty engaging, and while it had a weak finish I think the plot is worthy enough for reading on its own. I just wish I didn't have to deal with either of the main characters while reading it.

[LibraryOgre]

Finished "The Rising Storm" in the High Republic series of Star Wars books; I've previously mentioned my love of the High Republic series, and this one delivered. If I have a complaint about the series it's that it's somewhat like a comic crossover event... if you're not reading everything, across several age categories, you're missing things.

[Peelee]

Finished "The Rising Storm" in the High Republic series of Star Wars books; I've previously mentioned my love of the High Republic series, and this one delivered. If I have a complaint about the series it's that it's somewhat like a comic crossover event... if you're not reading everything, across several age categories, you're missing things.

Im having trouble with High Republic because it seems too superhero-y. If that makes sense.

[LibraryOgre]

Im having trouble with High Republic because it seems too superhero-y. If that makes sense.

Nah, I get it. Part of what drew me in to Light of the Jedi was that everything didn't rest of the Jedi, and that carried through to Rising Storm... the Jedi are powerful, and do amazing things but, arguably, it's a reporter who saves the day in The Rising Storm. While there's definite heroics (and the Jedi doing superheroics), there's also that at a mundane level.

[Thane of Fife]

Because reading one book at a time is too dull, I also started the archeologically old Raven: Swordmistress of Chaos, which is a sword and sorcery novel from the late seventies. I rather enjoy the more sinister, gritty tone of S&S on occasion, and this delivers pretty well. The writing is surprisingly good, with a solid sense of metaphor and feel, which gives the rather pedestrian plot of convenience a heightened, more mythic tone that works well. It's also a solid reminder of just how much more efficient prose used to be, in about half of its slim 175 pages, it's packed in flight from slavery, giant magic ravens, training montages, mystic visions, quests, shipwrecks, and it shows no sign of stopping. I've read entire novels that do less in 300 pages than this does in under 90.

If you decide to continue with the following books in the series (I think there are five total), be aware that Richard Kirk is a collective name, and I think that the series actually bounces back and forth between two writers. So you may find you prefer the writing of one of the two authors.

I will say that I kind of love how Raven is the champion of Chaos, when chaos normally gets painted as the bad guys.

[Rynjin]

I will say that I kind of love how Raven is the champion of Chaos, when chaos normally gets painted as the bad guys.

If I had a nickel for every time I read a fantasy novel where the main character named Raven ended up as a champion of Chaos I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much, but it's weird that it happened twice.

[Bohandas]

I'm now reading The House on the Borderland by William Hope Hodgson. Is the protagonist meant to be insane?

[GloatingSwine]

If I had a nickel for every time I read a fantasy novel where the main character named Raven ended up as a champion of Chaos I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much, but it's weird that it happened twice.

If you want even less likely, Warhammer 40k has a character whose name is "Raven Raven" (Corvus Corax) and he didn't end up as a champion of chaos.

[Eldan]

Few more chapters on Gideon. Still not much happening, but characters are being slowly introduced. Everyone and everything is weirdly mundane for necromancer space nobility, and everyone is some flavour of very immature, but I don't hate it. Very slow paced for such a short book.