The Book Thread

[Mechalich]

I agree with this, and with Stormlight probably doing it best: it's still predictable, but due to it being so deeply tied to the given character's development and growth (or lack of such) it still gives that catharsis you need at such key moments.

Personally I find the whole process wears out its welcome in Stormlight, but that probably has more to do with that series' preposterously oversized nature. Rhythm of War, in particular, manages to choreograph Kaladin's big upgrade from something like 800 pages out, which means an even marginally astute reader spends an entire trilogy's worth of words knowing, broadly, the notes that are going to happen at the climax, which is absolutely ridiculous. Though admittedly this seems to have become a genre-wide problem. In general I'm really skeptical that any story needs millions of words to function.

[Dragonus45]

Personally I find the whole process wears out its welcome in Stormlight, but that probably has more to do with that series' preposterously oversized nature. Rhythm of War, in particular, manages to choreograph Kaladin's big upgrade from something like 800 pages out, which means an even marginally astute reader spends an entire trilogy's worth of words knowing, broadly, the notes that are going to happen at the climax, which is absolutely ridiculous. Though admittedly this seems to have become a genre-wide problem. In general I'm really skeptical that any story needs millions of words to function.

Spoiler

Show

His breakdown and the fake out for him speaking the next oath in the third book were great swerves though, sure you knew it would come along in the next book by some means or another but Oathbringer was a gut punch in part because it broke up the pattern you sort of came to expect a little. Also the method for how he finally made peace when he had a chance to say goodbye properly Tien was an emotional uppercut. I actually teared up a bit just thinking about it.

[warty goblin]

I agree with this, and with Stormlight probably doing it best: it's still predictable, but due to it being so deeply tied to the given character's development and growth (or lack of such) it still gives that catharsis you need at such key moments. It's also one of the main reasons for the "Marvel of Fantasy" view some people have of him, which I mentioned earlier.

This would probably be why I didn't like Mistborn, the only Sanderson novel I ever picked up... only to put it down halfway through... only to finish the damn thing a couple months later when completely out of things to read.

It felt like a super herostory. And not a fun silly superhero story with lots of goofy powers, or a deeply written one that used the powers as a metaphor for character growth or adulthood or technological change or anything. No, it was a superhero story whose interests began and ended with the protagonist's current set of made up powers, as if I should be deeply engaged by "this character can run fast" as a concept.

And my God but the prose was refined weapons grade dull. I've read bad writing that was honestly more engaging because bad writing can at least have some verve and personality. Sanderson is the prose equivalent of institutional beige wallpaper

Personally I find the whole process wears out its welcome in Stormlight, but that probably has more to do with that series' preposterously oversized nature. Rhythm of War, in particular, manages to choreograph Kaladin's big upgrade from something like 800 pages out, which means an even marginally astute reader spends an entire trilogy's worth of words knowing, broadly, the notes that are going to happen at the climax, which is absolutely ridiculous. Though admittedly this seems to have become a genre-wide problem. In general I'm really skeptical that any story needs millions of words to function.

There's a couple really long series I think are at least mostly worth it. Night's Dawn is like a 6000 page trilogy, and I think generally makes that work. It's a galactic scale story though, and uses that enormous length to explore the effects of the plot problem on people in about every walk of life in said galaxy. You could cut a couple of the less or solution relevant viewpoint characters and have the story work, but it would lose the all encompassing effect it has.

I quite liked Elizabeth Haydon's Symphony of Ages series, which weighs in at 9 books (my copies total 4800 pages) and I think it justifies that length. It helps that the first three make a fairly self cobtained trilogy, so if you don't want more you can stop there and have a satisfying ending. Books 4 and 5 also end their story pretty well, though they do a lot of setu for the next books so don't wrap things up completely. Books 6 - 8 are a trilogy, which while not self contained (you really do need the first 5) again end in satisfying fashion. Book 9 is an entirely different beast, and only strictly necessary if you want all the loose ends wrapped up. It's probably one of my favorite pieces of fantasy though, so while the story functions fine without it, it's absolutely worth the effort.

[Eldan]

Personally, I read Stormlight mainly for the illustrations of giant crab monsters and weird clothes. There's also a book attached, which is a bonus.

[GloatingSwine]

Personally, I read Stormlight mainly for the illustrations of giant crab monsters and weird clothes. There's also a book attached, which is a bonus.

It should come as absolutely no surprise that Brandon Sanderson is a big fan of the Dark Souls games...


(My patience for giant tomes is not what it was.)

[LaZodiac]

You know, dragging everyone away from the Sanderson discussion, here's another recommendation: The Mortal Engine series. The first one is a little shaky, but the rest are fantastic, and the way it ends is just, perfection. Made me cry real tears.

On the older line of things I'll always recommend The Deathgate Cycle. I hunted down every book in that one as a child, it's my Dragonlance, and it absolutely owns.

[Taevyr]

And my God but the prose was refined weapons grade dull. I've read bad writing that was honestly more engaging because bad writing can at least have some verve and personality. Sanderson is the prose equivalent of institutional beige wallpaper

I wouldn't call his prose "bad", just prosaic: simple and unremarkable. It serves its function without the usual bells and whistles that makes the prose of most fantasy books so engaging. He can do less prosaic stuff, such as his work on WoT, and it has improved over time, but I think part of why he's able to write the amount of books he does is because his prose is generally... "bland" is the wrong word as it's a tad too denigrating, but I can't think of a better one atm. The story that's being told is enjoyable, which is what I care about most in the end.

Not to mention that if his prose was more purple, I wouldn't be able to switch to him whenever I feel like reading something a bit more straightforward and vice versa. Sometimes you need a palate cleanser after finishing some heavier stuff.

[Wookieetank]

(My patience for giant tomes is not what it was.)

Depends on the Genre for me. Sci-fi and Horror, I'll happily dive into any length book. Fantasy, I've come to appreciate in shorter form, preferably 350pages or less. Probably helps that I've read a number of fantasy short story collections this year which had rather well put together stories in them, so my tolerance for filler in fantasy is rather low at the moment.

[warty goblin]

You know, dragging everyone away from the Sanderson discussion, here's another recommendation: The Mortal Engine series. The first one is a little shaky, but the rest are fantastic, and the way it ends is just, perfection. Made me cry real tears.

On the older line of things I'll always recommend The Deathgate Cycle. I hunted down every book in that one as a child, it's my Dragonlance, and it absolutely owns.

Haven't read Mortal Engines, will check out, thanks for the recommendation!

I absolutely second Death Gate, I reread it about four years ago and it remains a really top notch piece of work. I love the steady scope expansion over the first few books, the occasional detours into epistolary novel, and just how much top notch worldbuilding W&H poured into it. It's the kind of worldbuilding I really like too, mostly interested in the world itself and not the protagonist's super powers. The ending also requires a special shout out, because it's really strong.

I wouldn't call his prose "bad", just prosaic: simple and unremarkable. It serves its function without the usual bells and whistles that makes the prose of most fantasy books so engaging. He can do less prosaic stuff, such as his work on WoT, and it has improved over time, but I think part of why he's able to write the amount of books he does is because his prose is generally... "bland" is the wrong word as it's a tad too denigrating, but I can't think of a better one atm. The story that's being told is enjoyable, which is what I care about most in the end.

I wouldn't call his prose bad either, technically it's fine. It absolutely is bland though, in that I never hit a clever turn of phrase, a metaphor that really made something resonate or pop, a tone shift, or anything beyond simple descriptive sentence after simple descriptive sentence fading into beige tedium.

This is not because he writes simple prose. Lots of people do that and still have distinct and engaging narrative voice. Stephan King uses very simple language, but his writing manipulates tone and atmosphere masterfully, there's a couple passages of Salem's Lot that I read put loud occasionally because they're so well constructed. I'm reading A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik right now, the language is extremely straightforward, but it conveys the narrator's gallows humor covering up sheer pulsing terror extremely well.

Not to mention that if his prose was more purple, I wouldn't be able to switch to him whenever I feel like reading something a bit more straightforward and vice versa. Sometimes you need a palate cleanser after finishing some heavier stuff.

Lots of people write non-purple prose that is, as prose, engaging and lively and full of style and personality. Really, most halfway decent modern writing is like this, because flowery and complex language has been out of fashion for a century or more now. The last person I can think of who was actually good at really genuinely complex, ornate, and difficult prose in fantasy is Tanith Lee, and she's been dead for 7 years.

[Taevyr]

Lots of people write non-purple prose that is, as prose, engaging and lively and full of style and personality. Really, most halfway decent modern writing is like this, because flowery and complex language has been out of fashion for a century or more now. The last person I can think of who was actually good at really genuinely complex, ornate, and difficult prose in fantasy is Tanith Lee, and she's been dead for 7 years.

I'm aware, that's essentially what I meant with "purple prose": I just don't know a better word for it, and didn't feel like adding an extra paragraph to properly convey it.

I've heard about Deadly Education: might give it a try, since that description sounds right up my alley.

[Eldan]

Lots of people write non-purple prose that is, as prose, engaging and lively and full of style and personality. Really, most halfway decent modern writing is like this, because flowery and complex language has been out of fashion for a century or more now. The last person I can think of who was actually good at really genuinely complex, ornate, and difficult prose in fantasy is Tanith Lee, and she's been dead for 7 years.

Have you tried Susanna Clarke?

A Deadly Education is surprisingly fun. Like, there's so many YA clichés in there, but they are played with so well and the main character manages to be both thoroughly sarcastic and genuinely emotional in very engaging ways. Part three just came out this week, I'm just waiting for it to arrive.

[warty goblin]

Have you tried Susanna Clarke?

Not yet, though I've got Piranesi on the shelf, just waiting to be read. It's high on the queue, but the queue is long. Several bookshelves long.

A Deadly Education is surprisingly fun. Like, there's so many YA clichés in there, but they are played with so well and the main character manages to be both thoroughly sarcastic and genuinely emotional in very engaging ways. Part three just came out this week, I'm just waiting for it to arrive.

I wasn't super wild about it on my first read, but it's worth the revisit, I think my initial read was too strongly influenced by taking the first chapter as borderline parody, which clashed with the actual book. On reread it works a lot better because I get the story isn't actually tongue in cheek so much as a very amusingly written take on actually dark subject matter. There's definitely some tongue in cheek going on - the delightfully heavy handed cliches for instance - but it's not really the point.

I was hoping to get through both 1 and 2 before the third came out. Didn't quite make it though.

[Mechalich]

I wasn't super wild about it on my first read, but it's worth the revisit, I think my initial read was too strongly influenced by taking the first chapter as borderline parody, which clashed with the actual book. On reread it works a lot better because I get the story isn't actually tongue in cheek so much as a very amusingly written take on actually dark subject matter. There's definitely some tongue in cheek going on - the delightfully heavy handed cliches for instance - but it's not really the point.

I was hoping to get through both 1 and 2 before the third came out. Didn't quite make it though.

Personally, I think the Scholomance is best considered as a black comedy. It is a parody to at least some degree, because the numbers Novik throws out there are so far from being viable as that they can only be treated as absurd. Once you realize that, that it could not actually be as a bad as all this without the wizards having gone extinct millennia ago, it stabilizes into a darkly humorous bit of meta-commentary on YA grimdarkness.

[Dragonus45]

Personally, I think the Scholomance is best considered as a black comedy. It is a parody to at least some degree, because the numbers Novik throws out there are so far from being viable as that they can only be treated as absurd. Once you realize that, that it could not actually be as a bad as all this without the wizards having gone extinct millennia ago, it stabilizes into a darkly humorous bit of meta-commentary on YA grimdarkness.

Naomi Novik has a new series out after Temeraire!? I'll have to check this one out.

[Eldan]

Naomi Novik has a new series out after Temeraire!? I'll have to check this one out.

Several series, actually, but I haven't tried her others.

I'd call Deadly Education better than Temeraire. At least better than the later Temeraire books. They are very different in tone and genre, though. A Deadly Education is about a teenage protagonist with uniquely powerful magic at the most horrifying magic high school ever invented. I would call the genre "horror YA". Occasionally it's even existential horror. It's also funny.

[Eldan]

Not yet, though I've got Piranesi on the shelf, just waiting to be read. It's high on the queue, but the queue is long. Several bookshelves long.

I think you might like Piranesi, even if you and me seem to have pretty opposed tastes otherwise.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Wookieetank
Probably helps that I've read a number of fantasy short story collections this year which had rather well put together stories in them….

Any recommendations? I’m always open to good fantasy short stories.

[Melayl]

I kinda feel like that got wrapped up a bit too neatly, TBH... might wind up with a shake-up in the pack, but the main worry seems to have gotten resolved without much effort from Mercedes, and almost entirely off-screen.

I was a little surprised that we got another Bonarata novel, but Silence Fallen was 4 books at 5 years ago.

I don't think it has been resolved. It's been more delayed, I think. There's a *very* tentative equilibrium right now, IMO, that will rear up again.

I'm not too surprised by Bonarata showing back up. An ego like he was supposed to have wouldn't take well to being defeated on his home turf, and he's been used to getting everything he wants for several centuries. He'd almost *have* to do something to get back at them.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not too surprised by Bonarata showing back up. An ego like he was supposed to have wouldn't take well to being defeated on his home turf, and he's been used to getting everything he wants for several centuries. He'd almost *have* to do something to get back at them.

Oh, I'm not surprised he came back; it tends to be werewolf, vampire, faerie

Moon Called (werewolf)
Blood Bound (vampire)
Iron Kissed (faerie)
Bone Cursed (vampire)
Silver Borne (werewolf)
River Marked (faerie)
Frost Burned (vampire)
Night Broken (werewolf)
Fire Touched (faerie)
Silence Fallen (vampire)
Storm Cursed (werewolf)
Smoke Bitten (faerie)
Soul Taken (vampire)

I was more surprised that it was a Bonarata book because I didn't realize how far back Silence Fallen was.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just finished Nostromo by Joseph Conrad.

Spoiler: the literati consider it a superb 20th century novel

Show

(Apparently, in a list compiled in 1998 of 20th century lit, it came in at 47. (Ulysses by James Joyce was in the top 3, which for my money was far too charitable, so take its ranking with a grain of salt).

Where to start.
a. It's written in a style that fits its time, where description was important (both physical description and the description of what the characters were feeling or thinking). But it is also written for its time frame, which was the New World before The Great War, and the story tells about things that mostly happened in (a fictional version of) the 19th century in the fictional land of Costaguana somewhere on the Pacific coast.
b. Some meta themes are very much on display, with a core plot element being how Europeans are attracted to treasures in the New World, even in the 19th century, and the stark difference between the Europeans, even second and third generation Costaguanans whose ancestors came from Europe, and the indigenous population. I'll not go further due to forum rules.
c. On display are a variety of characters and character types, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
d. Deception, both of others and of self, crops up regularly.
e. The raw cruelty, and entropy, of the cycles of revolution that both changed, and did damage to, South and Central America during the 19th century is unapologetically represented.
f. There are some good plot twists.
g. There is not a happy ending.

A good read, but I can see the wisdom in its initial release as a serial.
Each chapter takes a bit of digesting as the story builds, block by block, to a sequence of climaxes that lead to the eventual, and somewhat unexpected, conclusion.

As a life long student of history, I particularly liked that one of the important characters is an expatriate Italian who was one of Garibaldi's One Thousand. (A veteran of Spedizione dei Mille). His occasional mini-rants about the betrayal of their revolution - by Cavour and Mazzini - is quite a contrast to the modern Italian hagiography of the three (Garibaldi, Cavour, and Mazzini) who each led the effort to unify Italy in their own, unique ways.
What it took me about half of the book to realize was that these early meditations by the old man about the people's revolution betrayed were a foreshadowing of various betrayals that crop up during the book. By the time it was over and I looked back on how Conrad had pieced it all together, I find that sub thread's weave into the fabric of the story to be masterful.

[warty goblin]

Am now just over halfway through The Last Graduate, the second Scholomance book. This one is, if anything, even more fun than the last one. It helps that it plays out over the course of months (I suspect a full year) rather than the days to weeks of the first novel, which gives everything a bit more space to breathe.

It also helps that Novik is a creative enough writer to really take advantage of the first person narration to fill up this space. Unlike a lot of first person books which are written like they're somehow a literal copy of the protagonist's thoughts and actions, this is explicitly a told (or rather written) account. So it's entirely natural for the narrator to leave things out until they're relevant, or go on long tangents, or make jokes because those are the things a person telling a story does. It isn't explicit when or how the account is written, it isn't a diary format and doesn't have a diagetic introduction explaining its origins or anything, but it makes for a pretty lively read. The told story nature also allows for time to be condensed or summarized really flexibly, so endless graduation practice doesn't take up tons of page count on repetitive action scenes.

This is great. Easily the most fun and best executed piece of genuinely contemporary fantasy I've read in a while.

[Eldan]

I just finished The Golden Enclaves, which came out last week, sequel to The Last Graduate Warty Goblin mentions above.

Compared to the others, it's quite a bit slower in the first half. Then comes the second half which is... interesting. I enjoyed it, even if it's a bit different, and it wraps up more story threads than I thought could be wrapped up in just one more book, in ways that are satisfactory and not entirely expected.

[Eldan]

Also, I'm kind of unreasonably happy that we seem to have found a book we both like? I usually like your takes on literature a lot, but we seem to disagree on almost all the books we read.

[warty goblin]

Wrapped up The Last Graduate last night, I pretty much just binge read the last 90 pages, I love it when a book grabs me like that.

Ending was good. There were some aspects that I definitely saw coming, but this isn't a bad thing. More like a really satisfying payoff. The final plan however I definitely did not anticipate, but boy was it fun.

Two things I very much liked were that the PoV character gets stuff wrong, or incompletely right, but because the reader is really stuck in her view, it doesn't necessarily seem wrong until the character realizes it. This is just really solid writing. The other thing I really liked was how Orion was characterized. It would have been so easy for Galadriel's understanding of his past and desires to have been right, and have him be just this sad rescue case guy, instead of just entirely weird, emotionally pretty self sufficient, and doing his own thing.


Sadly, I won't get my copy of the next book until tomorrow, due to complicated logistical nonsense. This leaves a book shaped lacuna in my life for the rest of today, which I'm going to fill with some short stories from those humorous Amazon anthologies Esher Freisner edited back in like the nineties. These are dumb fun in a sort of reverse exploitation movie way, i.e. silly, know it, and totally off the hook content wise. Seriously, at least every fourth story would probably get the author turbo-cancelled if the sort of person interested in turbo-cancelling read ancient short story collections with babes in bronze bikinis on the cover.

Also, I'm kind of unreasonably happy that we seem to have found a book we both like? I usually like your takes on literature a lot, but we seem to disagree on almost all the books we read.

It is a nice change of pace. I always like to see what you think about books as well, even when I disagree, your opinions are interesting and well reasoned.

[Eldan]

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm having thoughts about the ethical aspects of the third book that will probably need a few days to percolate in my head. I'm now no longer sure if I like all of it (it's still a very good read). Remind me again once you've read it.

[Bohandas]

for the Halloween season I'm checking out the Titus Crow novels

[Saintheart]

Making a proper read of Ken Follett's The Pillars of the Earth after having done a sort-of skim read some years ago and abandoned the book to my shelf unimpressed.

This time round, doing more. And thoroughly enjoying it. Straight medieval drama, but maybe Follett's style is just growing on me as I get older.

[Bohandas]

Also for Halloween season I've read Bram Stoker's novels, Dracula and Lair of the White Worm. And having read White Worm and having also read most of H.P.Lovecraft's stories I've gotta say, Bram Stoker is WAY more racist than H.P.Lovecraft ever was; The secondary villain's black henchman is somehow made out to be worse than the titular man-eating dragon, and every second word in the book is the n word.

[The Glyphstone]

Count me in as a third person who's read and enjoyed the Scholomance books, though the 3rd one left me feeling slightly unsatisfied somehow.

Spoiler

Show

I was expecting there to be some sort of consequence to essentially killing+resurrecting Orion in tandem with the shelter spells, like him being bound to the school in some fashion. But unless I missed a subtlety, he's just alive and happily purified, which rang odd with how Novak otherwise really liked to lean into the "magic has a nasty price" theme.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that.
(More Scholomance 3 discussion)

Spoiler

Show

Two things I didn't really like about the books, but I feel difficult to put in words.

Resurrecting Orion felt very... I don't even know. Power of Friendship/we can all do this together etc. Everyone quite literally comes together and then there's a golden light and he's saved. Now, it was all set up, and set up well. By the rules of the various magics involved, i.e. the Golden Sutras/Void foundation stones/Maw Mouths, it made sense. She's doing the same to him as she did to the enclaves, replacing his foundation stone.

But it still feels too clean. In fact, I thought everything about the ending was too clean. For the last few books, magic always felt messier than that, and I liked it. Yes, there should have been more consequence. Him bound to the school and unable to see El again (because she can't easily go back, once it's operational) would still have felt like a net positive, but at least a bit bittersweet. Him turning into some kind of new disembodied consciousness of the school, perhaps? Him losing all his power? There would have been ways to do this more messily.

The other thing that didn't quite sit right with me and I find hard to put in words is how much everyone was in on it. Every enclave council member knows how enclaves are made, everyone was creating maw mouths, etc. It just puts everyone neatly into oen block that El can deal with as one group. I mean, she doesn't, in the end, she needs to hunt down maw mouths across the world one by one and it's hard, but it just kind of makes the enclaves feel like one monolithic evil power block and I'm not sure I like that. Even if they were all under a compulsion not to change anything about the system. That just makes it even... neater.

Hmm. Okay, different tack. One thing I liked a lot about this book series so far was that there wasn't really anyone evil. Or not evil without reason. Every time El thought she could just condemn someone and maybe blast them, she got insight into why they were like this. And I liked that.

The Enclave founding secret doesn't quite work like that. Yes, they were all desperate to have an enclave, and they were all willing to engage in very dark magic to do it. But the way the compulsion works actually undermines this principle of the books for me. They didn't know what they were getting into, before they got into it. And once they were in, they couldn't tell anyone and had to continue doing it and that feels a cop-out almost. I would have liked there to be a bit more variety among enclave high-ups, some who refused, and some who walked away, and some who were willing to do it even knowing what the cost is. BUt of course you can't have anyone walking away, or the secret would get out.

I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling and I can't quite put into words what my problem is.

Also, they are still very good books.