A question about OD&D Ghouls.

[Jarawara]

I'm an old time player, going back to when AD&D first came out. Back in those early games, combat with a ghoul was a frightening thing. It had a claw/claw/bite attack, each of which only did a little bit of damage, but one touch by these horrible monstrosities could paralyze you. The saving throw at early levels was fairly difficult, and the ghoul had three attacks, only one of which needed to hit. Worse than that, if the ghoul hit you multiple times, you had multiple saving throws to avoid becoming food.

...now, that leads to the first question: Was there supposed to be multiple saves if the ghoul hit you multiple times? Or do you roll all attacks, then save once if any or all hit. Honestly, I don't know if that's clarified in 1st edition or not. I saw it was different based on the various gaming groups I was in.

...and for that matter, is it save for each round that you are hit, or make a save the 1st time you're hit and if you save you're good?

But I came here to ask about OD&D, because I was chatting about this with a friend, and he told me some things about how the earlier versions had been played and he came up with some interesting tidbits. So I'm asking for confirmation from the really old grognards here:

He was telling me that in OD&D, when a monster had multiple attacks (like a claw/claw/bite routine), you rolled only for one attack and if it's a hit, score the damage dice of all attacks listed. So the ghoul only has one attack, doing 3 dice of damage if it hits. And as such, only one save required, because it was all just one attack.

But he also stated that the OD&D rules directed you to go look at the Chainmail system, and that somewhere in there (or elsewhere, I wasn't quite sure what material he was referencing), that the ghoul's paralytic effect was not even tied to scoring a hit, but instead was listed as "If a character comes within 30 feet of a ghoul, they make a saving throw or are paralyzed." Even more specifically, it said you get a saving throw if you were over 4th level... if you were below 4th, you were automatically paralyzed just by a ghoul coming nearby.

So... have any of you ever heard of this before? Can you confirm the specifics? This is news to me, but as I said, I joined in on the game at the start of AD&D. On the other hand, my friend has misinterpreted several rules in the past, so... I dunno.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and insight.

[Yora]

No, that sounds completely new.

But it also doesn't surprise me very much that some people might have thought that, given the presentation of rules in OD&D. It might not even be wrong, just different from more typical interpretations.

[Thane of Fife]

He was telling me that in OD&D, when a monster had multiple attacks (like a claw/claw/bite routine), you rolled only for one attack and if it's a hit, score the damage dice of all attacks listed. So the ghoul only has one attack, doing 3 dice of damage if it hits. And as such, only one save required, because it was all just one attack.

There are very few multiple attacks in the original version of OD&D. Ghouls do not get them. Supplement 1 does give ghouls three attacks per round, but I don' think anything discusses how to resolve them.

That said, in Chainmail, multiple attacks are fairly common and most attacks are 1-hit kills. It would be silly to have multiple attacks all resolved on one roll. So I don't think that would be the intention in OD&D.

But he also stated that the OD&D rules directed you to go look at the Chainmail system, and that somewhere in there (or elsewhere, I wasn't quite sure what material he was referencing), that the ghoul's paralytic effect was not even tied to scoring a hit, but instead was listed as "If a character comes within 30 feet of a ghoul, they make a saving throw or are paralyzed." Even more specifically, it said you get a saving throw if you were over 4th level... if you were below 4th, you were automatically paralyzed just by a ghoul coming nearby.

Chainmail says that "If they touch a normal figure during melee, it becomes paralyzed and remains so for one complete turn. A paralyzed figure is considered to be able to strike a blow at the [ghoul] just prior to paralysis taking effect, so melee can occur but only one round."

There is some debate as to what that means. Does "touch" mean to hit the enemy or just move into contact? My reading would be the latter. Scale in mass combat Chainmail is 1" = 10 yards, so one could read that as though just being within 30" of a ghoul means you're paralyzed. I wouldn't, personally. Also, it is always tough to tell whether Chainmail's fantasy rules are for mass combat or for man-to-man. In the latter, melee range is 3", so the ground scale is clearly less, but the ghoul would still need base contact. Ultimately, it will be a question of interpretation.

Also, Chainmail has no saving throws at all. It is questionable what "normal figure" means. Surely it includes normal, unleveled humans, but what about elves? And surely it does not include heroes (i.e. level 4 fighters) or wizards). As for OD&D, it pretty much never tells you when you get saving throws, but I would read the rules as granting any character a save against ghoul paralysis. But I would also consider it reasonable that 4th level characters are outright immune.

[D+1]

The saving throw at early levels was fairly difficult, and the ghoul had three attacks, only one of which needed to hit. Worse than that, if the ghoul hit you multiple times, you had multiple saving throws to avoid becoming food.

Technically, yes - one hit, one save... three hits, three saves. Simply because that pretty much applies in any other case and nothing in 1E was ever said about ghouls being any different in that way. (Wait until you look again at carrion crawlers...) :)

Was there supposed to be multiple saves if the ghoul hit you multiple times? Or do you roll all attacks, then save once if any or all hit. Honestly, I don't know if that's clarified in 1st edition or not.

Nope, as noted it was never clarified one way or another for 1E. HOWEVER, a very good house rule to use is to say that no matter how many times in a single round you get hit by ghouls, it's still just 1 save vs. paralyzation - BUT for ghasts, it's one save required for every hit.

He was telling me that in OD&D, when a monster had multiple attacks (like a claw/claw/bite routine), you rolled only for one attack and if it's a hit, score the damage dice of all attacks listed.

Quite sure that is a house rule, not OD&D rules-as-written.

But he also stated that the OD&D rules directed you to go look at the Chainmail system, and that somewhere in there (or elsewhere, I wasn't quite sure what material he was referencing), that the ghoul's paralytic effect was not even tied to scoring a hit, but instead was listed as "If a character comes within 30 feet of a ghoul, they make a saving throw or are paralyzed."

There are indeed plenty of references to Chainmail, but OD&D provides an "Alternative Combat System" specifically so that you don't have to own Chainmail to play, and AFAIK it really works the same way. Regarding ghouls, the entire OD&D Book II description is:

As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights, Ghouls paralyze any normal figure they touch, excluding Elves. They otherwise melee in the regular fashion and are subject to missile fire. Any man-type killed by a Ghould becomes one.

So, ghouls in the initial OD&D rules get ONE attack that, if it hits, does 1d6 and paralyzes any normal figure other than elves. The Greyhawk supplement gave them 3 attacks for 1-3/1-3/1-4, but said nothing else about changes or additional rules regarding paralyzation. That puts it squarely in the DM's territory to decide what to do.

Even more specifically, it said you get a saving throw if you were over 4th level... if you were below 4th, you were automatically paralyzed just by a ghoul coming nearby.

No idea where that would have come from. It's not something I recall seeing in my OD&D booklets. In fact, I'm not sure saves are a thing AT ALL. Not that I've, like, studied OD&D, however... Core 1E is definitely more my expertise.

On the other hand, my friend has misinterpreted several rules in the past, so... I dunno.

Most likely confusing house rules he remembers as being rules-as-written. Maybe it's from Basic D&D? (Not at all familiar. I started with Holmes Basic and went right to 1E, and never dealt at all with the Basic branch of rules after that.)

[Eldan]

Also, Chainmail has no saving throws at all. It is questionable what "normal figure" means. Surely it includes normal, unleveled humans, but what about elves? And surely it does not include heroes (i.e. level 4 fighters) or wizards). As for OD&D, it pretty much never tells you when you get saving throws, but I would read the rules as granting any character a save against ghoul paralysis. But I would also consider it reasonable that 4th level characters are outright immune.

Didn't elves specically have a saving throw bonus against ghouls? Or am I misremember something, it's been a few years.

[Thane of Fife]

Didn't elves specically have a saving throw bonus against ghouls? Or am I misremember something, it's been a few years.

OD&D says, "As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights, Ghouls paralyze any normal figure they touch, excluding elves." Chainmail doesn't say anything about elves in the wights and ghouls entry. It's questionable if they would be affected there, but in OD&D they clearly aren't.

[JonBeowulf]

I don't know about OD&D, but in BECMI the attacks are rolled individually and any ogre-sized or smaller non-elf creature needs to make a save versus paralysis for each hit. Fortunately, the description also says that ghouls ignore paralyzed creature to focus attacks on non-paralyzed creatures.

[Jarawara]

Fortunately, the description also says that ghouls ignore paralyzed creature to focus attacks on non-paralyzed creatures.

Interesting. I remember reading a note from AD&D (but from the rules, or a module of that era, I do not know), that specifically said ghouls would ignore *non-paralyzed* creatures and focus on eating the paralyzed. They wouldn't go for a coup attack to kill their prey, just start munching away (claw/claw/bite autohit every round).

[JonBeowulf]

Interesting. I remember reading a note from AD&D (but from the rules, or a module of that era, I do not know), that specifically said ghouls would ignore *non-paralyzed* creatures and focus on eating the paralyzed. They wouldn't go for a coup attack to kill their prey, just start munching away (claw/claw/bite autohit every round).

My AD&D books are lost to the ages so I can't reference their description. I'm pulling from the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia and these ghouls seem to be less terrifying than what you describe AD&D (1e) ghouls to be.

Also, our avatars shop at the same shoe store.

[Jarawara]

Also, our avatars shop at the same shoe store.

I buy all my shoes from PainLess Shoe Source. :)

[rredmond]

Their touch causes humans - including dwarves, gnomes, half-elves, and halflings, but excluding elves - to become rigid (paralysis) unless a saving throw versus paralyzation is successful.

Also checking in to change up the shoe selection :)

[KorvinStarmast]

OK, taking it from the top and our OD&D / OD&D + Greyhawk games back in the mid/late 1970's.

Chainmail (3d edition):

WIGHTS (and Ghouls): Although they are foot figures, Wights (and Ghouls) melee as Light Horse and defend as Heavy Horse. They cannot be harmed by normal missile fire. Wights (and Ghouls) can see in darkness, and must subtract 1 from any die roll they roll when in full light. If they touch a normal figure during melee, it becomes paralyzed and remains so for one complete turn. A paralyzed figure is considered to be able to strike a blow at the Wight just prior to paralysis taking effect, so melee can occur but only one round.

Chainmail was not 1 to 1 combat in general, so when figures on the battlefield touched they were more or less in melee combat by default.
If we go to the 1-to-1 fantasy combat table (appendix E) we find this: Hero needs an 11 on 2d6 to hit a wraith, and wraith needs an 8 on a 2d6 to hit a hero. (Ghoul ostensibly being treated as a wraith).
I don't recall doing single combat at the hero-ghoul level, though.

GHOULS: As stated in CHAINMAIL for Wights, Ghouls paralize any normal figure they touch, excluding Elves. They otherwise melee in the regular fashion and are subject to missile fire. Any man-type killed by a Ghoul becomes one.

We used the alternate combat system most of the time, and paralized meant you were out of the fight but not dead. Normal attack, hit or miss, hit paralyzed (see below for saving throw) and did 1d6 damage as all damage did, or, after we began to use Greyhawk: three attack rolls by a ghoul, or, one by a wight or a wraith.

Monser..#attacks.............damage per attack
Ghoul33...2 claws/1 bite... 1-3/claw, 1-4/bite
Wight......1......................energy drain only
Wraith.... 1......................1-6 and energy drain

Turn undead was usually the better approach to ghouls and such in our experience, or fire, or keeping them out of reach one way or the other ...

FWIW: I never saw the ghoul's three attacks all rolled in one roll. The DM usually just rolled 3 twenty sided dice. (I can see why the DM did that though, in terms of math).

I also remember DMs calling for the paralyzation saving throw on a hit from a ghoul so that there was a chance that you weren't paralyzed. I can't remember one that didn't, although I suspect that some old school DMs would not have done that.