Chicken or the Egg: How to order a rulebook?

[Grod_The_Giant]

When digging into a new system, which order do you all think makes more sense? Because I've gone back and forth way too many times over my last few Ex20 drafts...

1. Start off by explaining the rules of combat and social interactions and skill challenges and stuff, at the cost of wading through a bunch of ill-defined terms before getting to skills and hero points and such.

2. Start by going through key character traits like skills and hero points, at the cost of referencing a bunch of mechanics that he bent been explained, before going through the actual gameplay rules?

[Chronos]

Present the rules in the order that they will be used. You need to create a character before you can do anything with a character, so start with everything you need to create a character.

[clash]

Shortly my group will be playing Starfinder. Heading never played Starfinder or Pathfinder before this was entirely new to me so I had to peruse the rulebook. I've learned a lot of ttrpgs in the past but I'll use this cause it's recent.

The rulebook was layed out such that creating a character and classes and races was all first which was pretty typical. I skipped over all that to read up on the actual gameplay mechanics for how to resolve encounters and how combat works. After reading those I returned to the classes and character creation.

I find without rules context you can even start thinking about creating a character because you don't know what stuff does. So I'm my opinion the rulebook should start with how to play then how to create a character.

On a somewhat related note, if you're designing a game using rules for skill encounters and social encounters I would love to see it sometime.

[Easy e]

I put some thoughts down as they apply to wargames....

http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.c...-lay-outs.html

[Telok]

Section -> short froms -> subsections -> notes & interactions -> index & glossary.

Sections are up to you. Generally they encompass characters, actions, setting, and GMing. Short forms are the first page (or two if you do a book format & start the secion on the left page) and give a quick overview or rules of thumb. The short forms can also be like a mini index, a list of things with one line descriptions, if the section is basically a list of stuff with explanations (ex: most D&D book skill/spell sections). Be sure to highlight, bold, or otherwise emphasize the really important stuff.

Sub sections are where specific subsystems go, its up to you if "build magic boats" gets put under magic, build/repair skills, campaigns, whatever. At the beginning or end (pick one) of a subsection put in any designer notes, intended uses, and important interactions that you want to emphasize. You can even repeat important information in the notes.

Put some work into making a good index & glossary. Many many people at WotC & other gaming publishers are going to Bad Technical Document Hell for their indexes. Make no mistake, "how to play this game" documents are just as much technical documents as "how to bake a cake" recipies. Choosing a cutesy or informal writing style does not excuse leaving out or not emphasizing critical information.

Repeating important information is good.

[Faily]

Many many people at WotC & other gaming publishers are going to Bad Technical Document Hell for their indexes. Make no mistake, "how to play this game" documents are just as much technical documents as "how to bake a cake" recipies. Choosing a cutesy or informal writing style does not excuse leaving out or not emphasizing critical information.

Repeating important information is good.

Special mention to Legend of the Five Rings 5th edition (the FFG one) for putting important rules into random sidebars.
Also much dislike for Green Ronin's A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying Game and it's lacking index, poorly placed tables, and just overall being bad to navigate.


After going through the setting-stuff (the part I wanna read first anyway in a corebook), I want a run-down on the basics of the system.

Age of Rebellion/Edge of the Empire/Force and Destiny start with explaining the dice system, which I think is fine because it's an unusual dice system, and goes into how you assemble dicepools and some of the core mechanics of the game (Destiny, Morality, Duty, Obligation). After that it goes step by step through Character Creation, after which you can read the details of what the Skills and Talents do. I think this is a pretty solid way of doing it.
Legend of the Five Rings 4th edition in a similar way explains the basics of the system, the ground rules, and then dives into the character creation.

WH40K's Wrath and Glory went more the opposite direction, putting Character Creation in step by step pretty early on, but I felt you had a poor idea of what exactly those numbers and things meant in the big picture.

So I think that kind of summarizes it for me in that I want to understand the rules first before I go into making a character. Combat and other more specific rules should come after creation, I feel, as that is more nitty-gritty rules.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Present the rules in the order that they will be used. You need to create a character before you can do anything with a character, so start with everything you need to create a character.

I find without rules context you [can't] even start thinking about creating a character because you don't know what stuff does. So I'm my opinion the rulebook should start with how to play then how to create a character.

Those are pretty much the exact two points I'm vacillating between, yeah: you want to know the rules before you make a character so you can make good choices, and you want to make a character before you delve into the minutia because that's the lens through which you interact with the system.

On a somewhat related note, if you're designing a game using rules for skill encounters and social encounters I would love to see it sometime.

In this particular case, it's d20 Exalted and I'm almost verbatim copying the social rules from Exalted 3e (which are actually quite good and system-independent). "Skill challenges" isn't really accurate for this project (although there are extended rules for running an empire), but STaRS has a generic conflict engine that works for environmental stuff as well as traditional conflict (basically by treating sub-challenges as individual enemies). I ported the rules for 5e D&D in my Grimoire, but I'll also link to the original thread because said Grimoire is embarrassingly under-edited.

So I think that kind of summarizes it for me in that I want to understand the rules first before I go into making a character. Combat and other more specific rules should come after creation, I feel, as that is more nitty-gritty rules.

So core mechanics, character creation, build options, then full rules for combat and social stuff and whatever else the game includes?

[NichG]

I'd say put motivation first before anything. That is, start with 'Why this rule system? What are we trying to achieve? What is the important conceit that the rest of the rules are designed around?'. After that, I agree with 'order of usage' or 'order of broad importance (as in, start with things everyone needs to know, put specialized stuff towards the back)'.

[warty goblin]

I think to some extent it depends on the focus of the game. If it's a d20 style game with a lot of focus on character building and special rules, those sorts of things should go first, or after a very quick overview of the most basic mechanics, i.e. you do things by rolling 1d20, adding stuff, and comparing it to a target number. If the game is built more around a set of rich and universally available task resolution rules with relatively minimal special character rules, those should go first because it's more important to understand how things work in general than the assorted special buttons your character gets to push.

[Greywander]

I think it depends a lot on the specific system. For example, I'm going to be playing 7th Sea for the first time, so I read through most of the rulebook to prepare. 7th Sea has a strong narrative focus, so naturally it starts off by going over lore before it gets to rules.

A lot of systems seem to put Character Creation at the front of the book, and I can understand why. But character creation is difficult to understand when you're not familiar with the rules. So I'd start by going over the Core Resolution mechanic. Basically, lay out the core systems that are necessary to play. In D&D 5e, that would be going over d20 rolls, proficiency, and the advantage/disadvantage system. You don't really need anything else to play, any conflict can be resolved with a d20 roll. Then do Character Creation, and then start delving into your complex subsystems like combat, magic, crafting, politics and intrigue, running a business, running a kingdom, sailing, etc. While any conflict can be resolved with a d20 roll, these subsystems offer a more fun and engaging way to resolve those types of conflicts.

[Composer99]

If you're designing a rulebook for a "fantasy heartbreaker", you probably need to stick with:
1. Absolute Basics
2. Creating a Character
3. Gameplay
4. Running a Game
5. Extras

Other games might be more flexible, but "fantasy heartbreakers", published or aspirational, usually ape the style of a D&D rulebook, and that's broadly their structure.

An alternative might be to split off character content from the rules for creating a character - the way that, say, PbtA games have "playbooks" for each character "class"/archetype/category/what-have-you. Then, creating a character is just part of the gameplay rule section.

About all I can say for sure is that within the gameplay and running a game sections, it's IMO best to go from most basic and/or foundational elements of playing or running a game, to the most advanced and/or optional. (So not the way the 5e DMG does it.)

[Faily]

So core mechanics, character creation, build options, then full rules for combat and social stuff and whatever else the game includes?

Yep!

[Tanarii]

Summary at the front of character creation process (ie steps involved) and core resolution mechanic. Then you can go into details.

If your system doesn't have a core resolution mechanic that you can explain, then it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Oh, a lesson to be learned from White Wolf in general Exalted in particular: Do NOT lead in with pages of storytelling/comics and world details. That's all stuff you end up skipping past and coming back to read later.

[Vahnavoi]

Putting character creation at the start is traditional, but it isn't good. It works for games where character creation is very simple and does not involve a lot of choice, but for games with lots of moving bits and customization, character creation before knowing how play works ends up as lot of work writing down information you have limited or no context for.

For a new system, you'd be better off having pregenerated characters at the front and walking through basic rules of the game using them as an example. Character creation can wait, even be put towards the end, with players only creating their own after they've already played through one scenario.

Another thing that affects ordering of a book: who is supposed to read it? Each player on their own? A game master? Are the rules the same for all parties, or is there necessity to split the book in players' section and game master's / referee's section? Are you explaining how a game works to veterans of an existing system or someone who may not have played roleplaying games ever before?

[Psyren]

DriveThruRPG or Amazon.

I'd say it depends. How easy is it to make a character? Pick a race, pick a class, done? Or is it more complicated, e.g. a points system?

If the former, I'd put that up front. If the latter, probably further in.

In both cases however, the biggest thing I'd put up front is an example of play with a handful of party members and a DM/Narrator/etc. going through an encounter. The Starfinder CRB example clash mentioned does this well.

[Easy e]

If your system doesn't have a core resolution mechanic that you can explain, then it's time to go back to the drawing board.

So much this!

[Psyren]

Summary at the front of character creation process (ie steps involved) and core resolution mechanic. Then you can go into details.

If your system doesn't have a core resolution mechanic that you can explain, then it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Oh, a lesson to be learned from White Wolf in general Exalted in particular: Do NOT lead in with pages of storytelling/comics and world details. That's all stuff you end up skipping past and coming back to read later.

Yeah, that's a good point too - core resolution up front, setting stuff/fluff in the back for sure.

[Anonymouswizard]

My general thoughts are:
-table of contents
-core assumptions of the game
-setting information, everything the players need to know to roleplay their characters
-core mechanics, in enough detail to know if a character is considered 'good' or 'great'
-character creation
-subsystems (if present) and character fiddly bits
-advice on playing/running the game
-adversaries and additional setting information
-index
-rules reference and character sheet

The idea here is to front load the mood and basics, but keep the things you might not need to know a bit further back. Everybody needs to know the basic premise of the game and how to make a check, but not everybody actually needs to know the combat or magic rules (or maybe they do, depending on the game).

If I was reworking modern D&D to fit this model both Ability Checks and Combat would be before Character Creation.

[Psyren]

My general thoughts are:
-table of contents
-core assumptions of the game
-setting information, everything the players need to know to roleplay their characters
-core mechanics, in enough detail to know if a character is considered 'good' or 'great'
-character creation
-subsystems (if present) and character fiddly bits
-advice on playing/running the game
-adversaries and additional setting information
-index
-rules reference and character sheet

The idea here is to front load the mood and basics, but keep the things you might not need to know a bit further back. Everybody needs to know the basic premise of the game and how to make a check, but not everybody actually needs to know the combat or magic rules (or maybe they do, depending on the game).

I agree with "frontload mood and basics" but I would tweak your list above. Bold are the things I altered or moved:

-table of contents
-core assumptions of the game
-high level setting themes
-character creation
-subsystems (if present) and character fiddly bits (e.g. equipment, magic system)
-core mechanics (particularly pillars, e.g. exploration, interaction, combat.)
-advice on playing/running the game
-more detailed setting information (adversaries, factions, hooks.)
-index
-rules reference and character sheet

[clash]

Yeah, that's a good point too - core resolution up front, setting stuff/fluff in the back for sure.

Couldn't agree more with this. When I'm learning a new system the last thing I'm concerned with is setting lore. Every dm I've ever played with it game I've ran for any system has used hombrew seeing and lore anyways which might be extreme but not unusual I would think.

[Beleriphon]

A rule book should also be a text book for the game. It needs to be an instructional tool as much a reference book. Most RPG books are terribly designed from a teaching standpoint.

So, I'd suggest looking at how text books are structured. Traditionally, a textbook's first chapter is an overview of the subject, and then each subsequent chapter builds on what you need to know.

[Volthawk]

I'd agree with the notion of some kind of mechanical summary before character creation - in particular, if there are unique terms or mechanics that aren't clear from a basic understanding of TTRPGs, they should be defined beforehand. It always mildly annoys me when I'm going through chargen and an option says something like "get 5 good boy points when you do some underwater basketweaving" but I have no idea what good boy points are and do so I have to go skipping around figuring out where they put that in. The first-time reader naturally won't know the exact value of the bonuses and options around without digging into the rules, but they should know what the options do and broadly what to expect by taking it.

[Anonymouswizard]

I agree with "frontload mood and basics" but I would tweak your list above. Bold are the things I altered or moved:

-table of contents
-core assumptions of the game
-high level setting themes
-character creation
-subsystems (if present) and character fiddly bits (e.g. equipment, magic system)
-core mechanics (particularly pillars, e.g. exploration, interaction, combat.)
-advice on playing/running the game
-more detailed setting information (adversaries, factions, hooks.)
-index
-rules reference and character sheet

You can vary quite a bit while remaining within the ide of frontloading mood. I'd argue that something like Nobilis should have more early setting information than something like Vampire.

Couldn't agree more with this. When I'm learning a new system the last thing I'm concerned with is setting lore. Every dm I've ever played with it game I've ran for any system has used hombrew seeing and lore anyways which might be extreme but not unusual I would think.

There are games with stronger and weaker setting assumptions. You're not really going to play Nobilis with a homebrew setting, you might do for Chronicles of Darkness, and almost certainly are for Dungeons & Dragons. But I still think that mood is important enough to frontload some setting.

[warty goblin]

The latest edition of The Dark Eye does a thing I really like where it has a whole section of sample characters, and uses them to essentially narrate a mini-adventure. It does a lot of work in a pretty small number of pages, by showing the sorts of characters and adventures the game is built for, what they're good at, and if you like any of them you can just grab the stats, add a new name if you feel like it, and be good to go. It's a lot better than having a couple example characters jammed into the back of the book where nobody ever pays any attention to them.

[Cluedrew]

I did a system once (so long ago now) that actually divided the character stuff into three sections: character description (what is on a character sheet), character creation and character advancement. The character description section was the first mechanical part of the game presented and character advancement was the last, even after most subsystems.

The over all order was something like:

• The premise of the game
• character description
• core system
• character creation
• sub-systems (actually, hadn't made many of these yet)
• character advancement

[Quertus]

When digging into a new system, which order do you all think makes more sense? Because I've gone back and forth way too many times over my last few Ex20 drafts...

1. Start off by explaining the rules of combat and social interactions and skill challenges and stuff, at the cost of wading through a bunch of ill-defined terms before getting to skills and hero points and such.

2. Start by going through key character traits like skills and hero points, at the cost of referencing a bunch of mechanics that he bent been explained, before going through the actual gameplay rules?

When I look at a new system, here's what I want to see (quickly makes a new idea...):

Spoiler: Bloody Pirates

Show

Introduction

"Bloody Pirates" is a game of pirates and blood magic, where you can expect blood and treasure run like blood over the deck of your ship. Whether your ship sails for crafty Gond, militant Boros, xenophobic Elfheim, magical Atlantis, an independent merchant group, or for the plunder of piracy, you can expect to face off against other factions, pirates, sea monsters, merfolk, and dragons in a bloodbath of tactical maneuvering and bloody boarding actions in this explosive d6 system.

Character Creation

Depending on the game, the Ship may be chosen for you, or you may get to choose your Ship.

Each Ship has a Faction. Choose a Faction for your character appropriate to your Ship's Faction. Your character gets the Traits from their faction, plus one additional Trait.

A starting character gets 50 points for Skills. blah blah blah to have rank 4 in a skill therefore costs 1+2+3+4=10 skill points.

Factions
Gond - blah blah blah Advantage on Repair; No Bad Repair or Fast Repair; Golems
Boros - blah blah blah Teamwork; Once Bloodied Twice Mad; Superior Arms
Elfheim - blah blah blah Eagle Eyes; Everyone's Magic; The Legolas Factor; Green Peace
Atlantis - blah blah blah Everyone's Magic; More than Blood; Twist Fate
Independent - blah blah blah Mixed Crew; Nobody's Got Your Back; Profits; Deep Pockets
Pirate - blah blah blah Mixed Crew; Nobody's Got Your Back; Scavenge; Pirate's Code

Traits
Bad Feeling - 1/session, after group action is declared, your character may have a bad feeling...
Berserker
Blood Mage
Bloody Swath
Duelist
Eagle Eyes
Half-Merfolk - blah blah blah can breathe underwater (with "obvious when used" gills); Swim skill Allowed
No, what arrr ya' doin'
Only a Flesh Wound - blah blah blah ignore Trouble blah blah blah
Scavenge
Swims Like a Rock

S-Kills
Bludgeon
Bow
Cannon
Flintlock
Magelock [Atlantis only]
Ship - ramming, or knocking someone off the boat when you swing the mizzenmast at them
Sword
Unarmed

Magic Skills
See "Blood and Magic"

Other skills...
Athletics
Craft
Fleshcraft
Perception
Swim

Experience

(doesn't have to go here, I just didn't see a better place for it)

Traits

Bad Feeling: 1/session, after a group action has been declared, the player may have their character declare that they have a bad feeling about this. If they do, at the conclusion of the action, they may reduce the Ship or Crew Trouble by one. However, one additional Complication is added to completing the action. Whenever a group action is declared that has one or more Unknown Severe Complications, if the player has not declared that their character has a bad feeling about this, inform the player that their character has a bad feeling about this. If they have not used their 1/session ability, they may Expend it now to gain 1 floating Defensive Advantage. At end of session, if this ability has not been Expended, blah blah blah

Everyone's Magic: Counts as appropriate caster for all artifacts and all ritual magic; however, the costs are doubled (unless this places the cost above muggle usage). Gains one micro-trait, which may only be spent on a Basic Magic.

Skills

Ships, Weapons, and Other Gear

Basic Mechanics

"Bloody Pirates" uses an "Explosive d6" system. That means, whenever you roll a "6", roll an additional d6.

The sum of all the dice is added up; this sum is called the Effect. This Effect is compared to the Difficulty of the task. Different components of success may be purchased with this Effect.

For example, "Jump to the Adjacent Ship" requires an Athletics roll.

0: In the Water
5: Hanging on the Edge
10: Onboard
+5 have a rope
+5 take Trouble
+5 take Complication
+5 take Damage (max 2)
-5 other ship set to repel boarders
+5 other ship set to accept boarders
+5 other ship lower in the water
-5 other ship higher in the water
-10 other ship flying
-5 in melee combat
-5 being targeted
-10 Sea Monster active
-5 per point of Style earned (max 3)

Combat

Trouble

The bloodbath of combat isn't the only thing the PCs need to be worried about. Each character has a Trouble stat, as does the Ship, and the Crew.

blah blah blah Damage to the ship can cause Trouble - broken masts, taking on water, etc. When the Ship Trouble reaches 10, the ship is lost - sunk at sea (or, if you are extraordinarily lucky, in port). Unless everyone can swim all the way to the nearest land, all crew are likely lost.

blah blah blah Disease, Hunger, Terror - these all affect the crew's morale, their sense of (or actual) Trouble. When Crew Trouble reaches 10, the ship is lost - to starvation, mutiny, the specifics don't matter.

Style

Blood and Magic

When you take a Magic Trait, you get 3 "micro-traits" to spend on that magic's trait tree. As you gain access to more traits, you may take the same magic again, gaining an additional 3 "micro-traits". For example, if you take "Blood Magic" a second time, you would have a total of 6 Blood Magic "micro-traits", 6 steps along the Blood Magic Tree. This would be recorded as "Blood Magic II" on the character sheet.

Each step on the tree can grant one or more of
* Traits (usually modifiers to existing skills / spells)
* Skills

Each spell is its own skill. Just because they have access to the skill does not mean that the character is not required to put any points into the magical skill; however, without outside help (artifice, for example), the character will be unable to cast the spell. Record those spells at Rank 0 on the character sheet.

Some branches have prerequisites. These prerequisites must be met before the branch can be taken.

(shock and surprise, there's similar "micro-trait" trees for sword skills, gun skills certain S-Kill-related Traits, like "Duelist", "Sharpshooter", "Legolas Factor", etc. Those trees rarely grant unique skills, however (the notable exception being when they cross over with magic, like a Duelist branch that requires Flaming Object 1))

Creatures of the Deep

Sample Adventure

The reason I prefer this ordering is simple: give me the quickest overview of the system possible. From that, I may have some idea what I want to play. Then let me see what I have to work with to build a character. Then give me the relevant rules, so I (maybe) can see how that character's stats matter / what I'll need to match the vision in my head. Then let me learn all the rules I'll need to know to play the character. Maybe give me a sample to test my vision against.

This, IMO, makes much more sense than starting D&D rule books page 1 with 9th level spells, that the Fighter will never be able to cast, and the Wizard can't cast yet.

(and, no, I don't like the system I invented. It's probably too fiddly for the feel I wanted from this system)

[erikun]

Right off hand, I think a good order would be:

• Introduction
• The System "Hook"
• Short Description(s) of Play - including some terminology
• Setup/Character Building
• Game Mechanics
• Tips and Support for Running/Playing a Game

In this case, you'd have a brief overview of how the game is played, including some of the terminology that players would use, before jumping into creating characters or putting a game together. This gives the reader a sense of how a game is supposed to go at the table, along with some expectations of what they will be dealing with in the system. If it contains lines like "Roll to attack." or "What's your AC?" or "My race ability lets me resist that." then players can be looking for those stats, or things related to those terms, when they start putting characters together.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thank you all for the feedback-- at this point, I'm thinking of starting with a character creation/orientation chapter. I figure I'll go through all the sections of the character sheet (roleplaying stuff, followed by universal stuff like "AC," then mundane character options, than magical options) and give a brief overview of what the thing is, where to find the full rules, and what you fill in at the start of the game.

After that, I'm thinking setting, gameplay, items and equipment, mundane options, magic overview, magic options-- sort of increasingly specific, if that makes sense.

[lightningcat]

For my Transformers game I used the following order:
1 setting and background
2 rules system
3 character creation
Advancement info
4 basic characteristics of character
5 unusual character options
6 gear
7 gm stuff
8 npc and enemies
9 lexicon of in world terms

While my human supplement used this order:
1 setting and background
2 character creation
3 differences for humans vs giant robots
4 unusual character options
5 gear
6 gm stuff
7 npc and enemies
8 lexicon of in world terms
9 spy stuff (no game stuff, just in game terms and ideas)