14th Doctor Announced

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, these are Time Lords, for all we these three could have all been the same person.

The only thing confirmed is that Omega and Rassilon are different people.

Edit: Also, The Master as the Timeless Child would have been much more interesting.

Knowing the route the series is going down, this would just end up with 'but Doctor-kun, you're the reincarnation of my one true love!'

Admittedly, the only issue I'd have is the 'reincarnation of' bit. My personal headcanon is that the Master is Susan's grandmother.

Maybe RTD can fix things a bit, in which case I might return but it almost feels like they need a hiatus for a while again.

Only if he doesn't repeat the Doctor/Companion shipping of the Tennant to Jodie eras. God that's so creepy, and the Doctor's already in an established hinge anyway.

[Fyraltari]

The only thing confirmed is that Omega and Rassilon are different people.

I wasn't clear but I meant the three in that specific shot.

[Cygnia]

Only if he doesn't repeat the Doctor/Companion shipping of the Tennant to Jodie eras. God that's so creepy, and the Doctor's already in an established hinge anyway.

Well, rumour has it the new companion is gonna be named "Rose"...

[Androgeus]

Well, rumour has it the new companion is gonna be named "Rose"...

Yasmin Finely is in 60th rather than series 14 proper so the chances she is Gatwa's companion is low

Spoiler: speculation

Show

The most common theory I've seen is that she's Donna's daughter.

[Psyren]

It's all been downhill since Ecclestone left.

I dropped out, despite being a huge fan, halfway through Capaldi's run. I felt he made a really great Doctor but got saddled with pretty bad stories. Haven't been back since.

Maybe RTD can fix things a bit, in which case I might return but it almost feels like they need a hiatus for a while again.

Capaldi had some amazing stories in my opinion. Chief among them was Heaven Sent, which got nominated for a Hugo and was even submitted for an Emmy, but Zygon Inversion, Flatline, Listen, Time Heist and Into The Dalek were all solid sci-fi too. Nothing in Chibnall's run even came close.

Only if he doesn't repeat the Doctor/Companion shipping of the Tennant to Jodie eras. God that's so creepy, and the Doctor's already in an established hinge anyway.

Yeah they should definitely chuck the romance stuff.

[Caledonian]

'Shipping' is insanely popular. The BBC is perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to draw in viewers... as long as it doesn't interfere with their propaganda.

[Psyren]

There's nothing wrong with shipping - but the power dynamic between a Doctor and their Companion is pretty much irreconcilable with romance, and that's before you get to practical considerations like the former's immortality, or their laundry list of grudge-bearing archvillians hunting for the best way possible to hurt them, resulting in inevitable tragedy. Perhaps such a foregone conclusion can be written in a satisfying way we haven't seen before, but after over a decade of the new continuity I just don't believe it.

Worse, when they try and fail we then have to go through an arc of the bereft Doctor being sadder and mopier than usual, or even worse still, it poisons the entire well for the next Companion. (Martha was robbed.) It all feels like a waste of time even when it's not written awfully.

[Caledonian]

Oh, I'd argue that shippers induce shows to spend more and more time focusing on romances between characters. If they're not very, very careful, the stories will be lost in romance porn.

[Psyren]

"Romances between characters" isn't my problem - it's the Doctor-Companion dynamic specifically that throws it off.

[Peelee]

Doctor Who had less canon than virtually any media franchise I can think of, which was a big part for why it's lasted so long, but what little it had was very important. And they've completely thrown it out the window.

I don't think it's a complete coincidence that multiple beloved SF&F media properties have been ruined at roughly the same time; that is, I don't believe there is any causal connection between them, but larger, similar circumstances have led to similar outcomes. Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who - all massive presences in popular culture, all screwed up in roughly the same way.

I hate to burst your bubble, but Star Wars has been huge on having expansive canon since its inception. The 90s were a boom period for the novels, most of which were trash (and, having read and currently own in the basement over 130 of said novels, I feel I can state this with some degree of authority) and yet the series chugged on. The prequels were disappointing at best, and yet the series chugged on. The Disney wipe introduced new novels that ranged from trash (eg the Aftermath trilogy) to among the best they ever had (eg Lost Stars) and the series chugged on. The first ST was a soulless rehash of the original and yet the series chugged on. The second was incredibly divisive and by the "disliked" faction largely seen as dismissive and insulting to the overall property at worst and the worst movie to date at best, and yet the series chugged on. The trilogy's capstone is widely seen as a dumpster fire with the most enduring part being a quote so bafflongly stupid its become synonymous for describing something as intellectually empty, and yet the series chugs on.

Whatever pattern you think you're seeing, Star Wars does not follow it.

[Dragonus45]

There's nothing wrong with shipping - but the power dynamic between a Doctor and their Companion is pretty much irreconcilable with romance...

That's a fairly harsh take that I'm not really sure I buy into. It's a troublingly problematic train of thought to say that X person just literally has a dating pool of like 5 people in existence because of some overstated power dynamic.

Worse, when they try and fail we then have to go through an arc of the bereft Doctor being sadder and mopier than usual, or even worse still, it poisons the entire well for the next Companion. (Martha was robbed.) It all feels like a waste of time even when it's not written awfully.

Martha was great, I'm not certain what the problem there is? And Donna came right on the heels of Rose and the Doctor being mopey about that and she was easily still the best companion in New Who.

[Caledonian]

Star Trek and Doctor Who have each "chugged on", despite widely unpopular offerings. So I don't understand what your argument is supposed to disprove.

[Peelee]

Star Trek and Doctor Who have each "chugged on", despite widely unpopular offerings. So I don't understand what your argument is supposed to disprove.

At the very least, this:

I don't think it's a complete coincidence that multiple beloved SF&F media properties have been ruined at roughly the same time

Notwithstanding that something being "ruined" for you does not mean it has been actually ruined. Said chugging on as exhibit B.

[Fyraltari]

"Romances between characters" isn't my problem - it's the Doctor-Companion dynamic specifically that throws it off.

Amy/Rory and Clara/Danny were great. Doctor/Amy and Doctor/Clara had me bored. Poor, poor Mickey, too.

That's a fairly harsh take that I'm not really sure I buy into. It's a troublingly problematic train of thought to say that X person just literally has a dating pool of like 5 people in existence because of some overstated power dynamic.

There are way more than 5 immortal characters in Doctor Who. With that said, it'd be nice if the show stopped exploding the Doctor's entire species.

Martha was great, I'm not certain what the problem there is?

A lot of Martha and the Doctor's dynamic was Martha pining for the Doctor who's still pining for Rose.

And Donna came right on the heels of Rose and the Doctor being mopey about that

No that was Martha. Donna gets one Christmas special just after Doomsday then an entire season after the Doctor had a whole season with Martha. Though the Bad Wolf stuff comes back in the end.

'Shipping' is insanely popular. The BBC is perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to draw in viewers... as long as it doesn't interfere with their propaganda.

What propaganda?

[Anonymouswizard]

"Romances between characters" isn't my problem - it's the Doctor-Companion dynamic specifically that throws it off.

Yeah, this. Let Ace have her girl of the week, or Barbara and Ian get together over their adventures. But Doctor-Companion comes off as creepy at best.

That's a fairly harsh take that I'm not really sure I buy into. It's a troublingly problematic train of thought to say that X person just literally has a dating pool of like 5 people in existence because of some overstated power dynamic.

Then introduce more Time Lords! Oh wait, Chibnall threw Gallifrey out of the toy box and unlike Davies wasn't willing to keep it ambiguous enough to put back in.

It's their own fault, the writers can deal with the consequences of taking another Romana off the table.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't think it's a complete coincidence that multiple beloved SF&F media properties have been ruined at roughly the same time; that is, I don't believe there is any causal connection between them, but larger, similar circumstances have led to similar outcomes. Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who - all massive presences in popular culture, all screwed up in roughly the same way.

That is the nature of film eras, unfortunately. If you go back to the 80s or something, you'll absolutely see the same weaknesses in all kinds of films/shows. The number of professional movie/TV show making people is relatively modest in size, and they have fads and discoveries same as anywhere else, so something catches on and it gets copied all over the place. Sometimes this is great, sometimes it's rough.

I mean, think about how many 90s era action movies had an obligatory tacked-on romance that added nothing to the plot.

Every era has its tropes, and no doubt with the benefit of hindsight, we'll have plenty of things to eventually laugh at from this one.

[Dragonus45]

There are way more than 5 immortal characters in Doctor Who. With that said, it'd be nice if the show stopped exploding the Doctor's entire species.

Sure but so many of them turn out to be evil or otherwise disqualify them that it turns into a remarkably shallow dating pool. It's like the thing where people ask like any celebrity trying to date outside of the sphere of other famous people is somehow invalidating others consent by being to famous for it to be fair. It just doesn't work that cleanly or neatly. That said it also doesn't work from a writing perspective but shipping drives sales so that's life.

[Psyren]

What propaganda?

Given the other thinly-veiled allusions being made (like Star Wars, Star Trek, and Doctor Who all being "ruined in the same way") I wouldn't bother poking at this.

Sure but so many of them turn out to be evil or otherwise disqualify them that it turns into a remarkably shallow dating pool. It's like the thing where people ask like any celebrity trying to date outside of the sphere of other famous people is somehow invalidating others consent by being to famous for it to be fair. It just doesn't work that cleanly or neatly. That said it also doesn't work from a writing perspective but shipping drives sales so that's life.

I know I'm probably (definitely) shouting into the void by wishing the BBC would give up on half-baked Doctor-Companion romance subplots that at best are never able to go anywhere interesting and at worst are downright harmful or exploitative to one or more characters, but I can also hope that a critical mass of negative feedback will eventually get through to them.

This isn't to say that I think the Doctor should be passionless or chaste - but the Companion should really go in with both eyes open knowing that it would be a whirlwind fling (much like the time travel adventures themselves) that will eventually come to an end, and not expect anything long-term out of it, even by their own comparative mayfly standards. In short, so long as it's clearly framed as a tryst and a bit of fun, go for it, but don't have the companions pine and catch feelings (especially not right off the bat.)

[Anonymouswizard]

Sure but so many of them turn out to be evil or otherwise disqualify them that it turns into a remarkably shallow dating pool. It's like the thing where people ask like any celebrity trying to date outside of the sphere of other famous people is somehow invalidating others consent by being to famous for it to be fair. It just doesn't work that cleanly or neatly. That said it also doesn't work from a writing perspective but shipping drives sales so that's life.

Even restricting it just to Time Lords* instead of anybody with a comparable lifespan gives a figure in the 3-10 billion range, depending on the Time Lord:normal Gallifreyan ratio. I wouldn't call that remarkably shallow.

Even outside of lifespan you've also got to deal with the fact that the Doctor is a telepath. By his own admission less gifted at mind reading than Susan, and clearly worse at hypnotism than the Master, but it raises questions.

If you want Doctor/Companion romance in the show bring in another Time Lord. It works, and clashing egos is just a sign of their chemistry.

* Time Nobles?

[Psyren]

Even restricting it just to Time Lords* instead of anybody with a comparable lifespan gives a figure in the 3-10 billion range, depending on the Time Lord:normal Gallifreyan ratio. I wouldn't call that remarkably shallow.

Even outside of lifespan you've also got to deal with the fact that the Doctor is a telepath. By his own admission less gifted at mind reading than Susan, and clearly worse at hypnotism than the Master, but it raises questions.

If you want Doctor/Companion romance in the show bring in another Time Lord. It works, and clashing egos is just a sign of their chemistry.

* Time Nobles?

Worth noting that Missy was kind of this, and it was highly dysfunctional - but also a joy to watch on screen.

[Dragonus45]

Even restricting it just to Time Lords* instead of anybody with a comparable lifespan gives a figure in the 3-10 billion range, depending on the Time Lord:normal Gallifreyan ratio. I wouldn't call that remarkably shallow.

Even outside of lifespan you've also got to deal with the fact that the Doctor is a telepath. By his own admission less gifted at mind reading than Susan, and clearly worse at hypnotism than the Master, but it raises questions.

If you want Doctor/Companion romance in the show bring in another Time Lord. It works, and clashing egos is just a sign of their chemistry.

* Time Nobles?

Considering Gallifrey has a habit of just not existing more often then not in New Who I'm standing by my hyperbole. The dating pool is shallow, and the only question raised by the Doctors occasional and inconsistent ability to hypnotize or read minds is "Why does that matter at all to this conversation."

Given the other thinly-veiled allusions being made (like Star Wars, Star Trek, and Doctor Who all being "ruined in the same way") I wouldn't bother poking at this.

It is a bit odd that both of them advertised much more interesting presumptive main characters, Michelle Yeoh's Philippa Georgiou and John Boyega's Finn, before sidelining them awkwardly for much less interesting main characters with the personality of half dried paint while tripping over their own feet and falling face first trying to tackle what the relationship between their stories and the ones that came before them were supposed to be. I would only have two nickels but still odd it happened twice. I kind of gave up Dr Who during Capaldis run, Whittaker was fine but between her casting and this latest one it's clear that the underlying issues that plague the show aren't being fixed in favor of "big news" castings decisions designed to create buzz and keep people remembering the show exists for merchandizing purposes while they get it together.

(Yes I am told Discovery eventually got it's **** together and Michael grew a personality but there are only so many hours in the day to watch things and this one is on the bottom of the list after Picard fell so short.)

I know I'm probably (definitely) shouting into the void by wishing the BBC would give up on half-baked Doctor-Companion romance subplots that at best are never able to go anywhere interesting and at worst are downright harmful or exploitative to one or more characters, but I can also hope that a critical mass of negative feedback will eventually get through to them.

This isn't to say that I think the Doctor should be passionless or chaste - but the Companion should really go in with both eyes open knowing that it would be a whirlwind fling (much like the time travel adventures themselves) that will eventually come to an end, and not expect anything long-term out of it, even by their own comparative mayfly standards. In short, so long as it's clearly framed as a tryst and a bit of fun, go for it, but don't have the companions pine and catch feelings (especially not right off the bat.)

Honestly a relationship presented as kind of a fun wild fling where the companion hangs around a season, flirts mercilessly with The Doctor, then decides they are full up on time travel and immortal snogging before they wander off the Tardis to go get a day job or something would actually be pretty good, and a more interesting original premise then we have gotten for the last few of these.

[Fyraltari]

Sure but so many of them turn out to be evil or otherwise disqualify them

But that's entirely because the writers want them to. If someone wants to write the Doctor dating an immortal without bringing in a Time Lord, they can bring in an Eternal or an android or a long-lived alien or someone from a non-immortal species who end up with an indefenite lifespan somehow like Jack Harkness, Ashildr, Clara or Bill.

Edit: Also, I want more companions who aren't humans from current-day Britain, please.

[Anonymouswizard]

Considering Gallifrey has a habit of just not existing more often then not in New Who I'm standing by my hyperbole. The dating pool is shallow, and the only question raised by the Doctors occasional and inconsistent ability to hypnotize or read minds is "Why does that matter at all to this conversation."

Time Gallifrey has existed: >20 years
Time Gallifrey has been destroyed: ~5 years (inc. that time it wasn't destroyed)

This isn't the first time it's come back outside of the expanded universe. In the EU... well it's literally the first Big Finish plot.

As to the Doctor's telepathy, it raises concerns for both privacy and consent when he's dating humans who don't get such powers by default. There's nothing to suggest that the Doctor isn't average, and as such Time Lords will be culturally used to dealing with such concerns and resisting hypnotism.

[Dragonus45]

Time Gallifrey has existed: >20 years
Time Gallifrey has been destroyed: ~5 years (inc. that time it wasn't destroyed)

This isn't the first time it's come back outside of the expanded universe. In the EU... well it's literally the first Big Finish plot.

I don't really care about the EU plots.

As to the Doctor's telepathy, it raises concerns for both privacy and consent when he's dating humans who don't get such powers by default. There's nothing to suggest that the Doctor isn't average, and as such Time Lords will be culturally used to dealing with such concerns and resisting hypnotism.

Are you implying The Doctore is a sex predator who uses his hypnotic powers to manipulate companions into romances?

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't really care about the EU plots.

That doesn't change the fact that bringing the planet back had been done more than once.

Are you implying The Doctore is a sex predator who uses his hypnotic powers to manipulate companions into romances?

Have you seen the movie?

[Dragonus45]

Have you seen the movie?

Which one?

[Psyren]

It is a bit odd that both of them advertised much more interesting presumptive main characters, Michelle Yeoh's Philippa Georgiou and John Boyega's Finn, before sidelining them awkwardly for much less interesting main characters with the personality of half dried paint while tripping over their own feet and falling face first trying to tackle what the relationship between their stories and the ones that came before them were supposed to be. I would only have two nickels but still odd it happened twice. I kind of gave up Dr Who during Capaldis run, Whittaker was fine but between her casting and this latest one it's clear that the underlying issues that plague the show aren't being fixed in favor of "big news" castings decisions designed to create buzz and keep people remembering the show exists for merchandizing purposes while they get it together.

(Yes I am told Discovery eventually got it's **** together and Michael grew a personality but there are only so many hours in the day to watch things and this one is on the bottom of the list after Picard fell so short.)

Georgiou wasn't "sidelined" - sure she eventually stepped off the bridge into spinoff land, but she was a pretty major character in seasons 1-3. And Sonequa/Michael was and is great.

I agree with you that Finn/Boyega got shafted, but I'd rather not turn this thread into Last Jedi thread #9999c so I'll leave it there.

Honestly a relationship presented as kind of a fun wild fling where the companion hangs around a season, flirts mercilessly with The Doctor, then decides they are full up on time travel and immortal snogging before they wander off the Tardis to go get a day job or something would actually be pretty good, and a more interesting original premise then we have gotten for the last few of these.

Yes, exactly. And I could definitely see a gay Doctor who takes more cues from Jack Harkness than prior incarnations as a great opportunity for this.

And then if it goes deeper / gets tragic later when one or both of them catch feelings, it will have at least been earned.

But that's entirely because the writers want them to. If someone wants to write the Doctor dating an immortal without bringing in a Time Lord, they can bring in an Eternal or an android or a long-lived alien or someone from a non-immortal species who end up with an indefenite lifespan somehow like Jack Harkness, Ashildr, Clara or Bill.

Yeah, "other Time Lord" is far from the only option if they want to explore something longer-term or on a more level playing field power-wise.

Edit: Also, I want more companions who aren't humans from current-day Britain, please.

This is a much harder sell. You need an easy entry point to the show, as well as someone who would react to the stranger sci-fi elements and ask questions as we, the audience, would. Present-day human is the best fit for that.

At best I could see a non-contemporary/non-human companion joining the TARDIS for a stint alongside a human every(wo)man.

[Dragonus45]

Georgiou wasn't "sidelined" - sure she eventually stepped off the bridge into spinoff land, but she was a pretty major character in seasons 1-3. And Sonequa/Michael was and is great.

She dies like immediately though and the other her was like an alternate universe evil twin or something? That doesn't sound like the Michelle Yeoh as a Starfleet captain series we were pitched at all.

Yes, exactly. And I could definitely see a gay Doctor who takes more cues from Jack Harkness than prior incarnations as a great opportunity for this.

And then if it goes deeper / gets tragic later when one or both of them catch feelings, it will have at least been earned.

I'm not sure why they would need to be gay for that but ok.

[Psyren]

She dies like immediately though and the other her was like an alternate universe evil twin or something? That doesn't sound like the Michelle Yeoh as a Starfleet captain series we were pitched at all.

The Terran counterpart IS her main character. The original was there purely to set up her "heel" turn once she replaced the dead one.

And if anything, Discovery pitched Jason Isaacs as a starship captain, not Yeoh. Her captain pitch is still in the works (Section 31.)

I'm not sure why they would need to be gay for that but ok.

They don't - but if you're going to make the Doctor's sexuality an important attribute / selling point for this incarnation, stories that touch on said attribute make sense.

Granted, they may just limit him to flirty comments aimed at this or that historical figure.

[Dragonus45]

The Terran counterpart IS her main character. The original was there purely to set up her "heel" turn once she replaced the dead one.

While this is true in retrospect, going into the series they had advertised her fairly heavily.