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[Batcathat]

You are supposed to optimize. That's the game part of "social game".

No, the game part of "social game" is... well, the game part. Rolling dice. Using the rules to resolve situations. Mechanics. Stuff like that. Optimization can be part of it, but it doesn't have to be and it's certainly not all of it. The least optimized character imaginable is just as much a part of the game as the most optimized character imaginable.

[Nezkrul]

For OP- quick rundown of a ranged scout ranger build

Spoiler: Scout / Ranger swift hunter archer

Show

Bow of the wintermoon +splitting +sacred = 51,400

3 cold-iron raptor arrows = 24,036

Gauntlets of +6 dex = 36,000

Cloak of arachnida = 14,000

5x5 flying carpet = 20,000

Padded armor +1 = 1,158

Buckler +1 = 1,165

~2,200 left to spend

Scout 3 / Elf Ranger Substitution 1 / Ranger +9 / Scout +1

Feats—
Fl- point blank shot, fl- precise shot, 1- true believer (ehlonna), 3- improved skirmish, 4b- track, 6- swift hunter, 6b- endurance, 9- greater manyshot, 12- quick reconnoiter, 14b- improved initiative

ACF- Solitary Hunting (give up animal companion) -> add FE bonus on attack rolls

FE’s- evil outsiders +6, undead +3, >open< +2

Assume 18 dex to start -> +2 elf, +3 levels, +6 enhancement = 29 (+9)

Height advantage greater manyshot w/imp skirmish on Marilith = 6 arrows at (13 bab, +1 height, +1 pbs, +3 ehance, +6 FE, +9 dex, -8 MS) = +25 ea.

Each hit causes Str Mod + 1d8 + 2d6 sacred + 2d6 bane + 6d6 skirmish + 6 FE + 3 enhancement (magic, good, cold-iron, piercing)

Given the character’s evasion ability of ranger and really high reflex save, the blade barriers wont cause damage. The character also has spiderclimb while on his carpet of flying so knocking him off of it is nigh impossible. So really it all depends on engagement range. The character can still move 40 ft per round on his carpet and make full rapidshot attacks at long range, if needs be.

[Saintheart]

For OP- quick rundown of a ranged scout ranger build

Spoiler: Scout / Ranger swift hunter archer

Show

Bow of the wintermoon +splitting +sacred = 51,400

3 cold-iron raptor arrows = 24,036

Gauntlets of +6 dex = 36,000

Cloak of arachnida = 14,000

5x5 flying carpet = 20,000

Padded armor +1 = 1,158

Buckler +1 = 1,165

~2,200 left to spend

Scout 3 / Elf Ranger Substitution 1 / Ranger +9 / Scout +1

Feats—
Fl- point blank shot, fl- precise shot, 1- true believer (ehlonna), 3- improved skirmish, 4b- track, 6- swift hunter, 6b- endurance, 9- greater manyshot, 12- quick reconnoiter, 14b- improved initiative

ACF- Solitary Hunting (give up animal companion) -> add FE bonus on attack rolls

FE’s- evil outsiders +6, undead +3, >open< +2

Assume 18 dex to start -> +2 elf, +3 levels, +6 enhancement = 29 (+9)

Height advantage greater manyshot w/imp skirmish on Marilith = 6 arrows at (13 bab, +1 height, +1 pbs, +3 ehance, +6 FE, +9 dex, -8 MS) = +25 ea.

Each hit causes Str Mod + 1d8 + 2d6 sacred + 2d6 bane + 6d6 skirmish + 6 FE + 3 enhancement (magic, good, cold-iron, piercing)

Given the character’s evasion ability of ranger and really high reflex save, the blade barriers wont cause damage. The character also has spiderclimb while on his carpet of flying so knocking him off of it is nigh impossible. So really it all depends on engagement range. The character can still move 40 ft per round on his carpet and make full rapidshot attacks at long range, if needs be.

Side question, but seeing as we're talking about something with a lot of spell-like abilities, would the marilith ping a Ranger's Arcane Hunter ACF? "At 1st level, you gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability. The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities)."

Would that mean (Sps) that duplicate Sor/Wiz spells (but not Sps off the cleric lists, et. al.) would make the marilith an arcanist covered by that ACF?

[Silly Name]

Side question, but seeing as we're talking about something with a lot of spell-like abilities, would the marilith ping a Ranger's Arcane Hunter ACF? "At 1st level, you gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability. The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities)."

Would that mean (Sps) that duplicate Sor/Wiz spells (but not Sps off the cleric lists, et. al.) would make the marilith an arcanist covered by that ACF?

No, Spell-Like Abilities work like spells but aren't spells, and the text of the Arcane Hunter ACF is pretty clear on this: it triggers against invocations, but not against other spell-like abilities.

[AvatarVecna]

And like...I'm not dunking on Wizards or casters in general. Casters absolutely kick ass, and you could probably build a pretty good one that could solo a marilith way earlier than lvl 14. But...

Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.
Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game. Because that's the "game" part of the "social game".

This is fundamentally misunderstanding how the process of demon summoning works, and misconstruing what WotC is saying.

Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East): None are more proficient with demon summoning than this master of the black art"
- FCI p.82

Firstly, this is just blatantly untrue. Which is fine - it's pure fluff text, WotC fluff text will do this exact same "pump up how cool they are" about PrCs meant for monks and fighters. It's not a statement about mechanical expectations. Case in point: because Nar Demonbinder gives it's own casting that tops out at 8th lvl spells, a build with more than three levels in Nar Demonbinder is incapable of casting Gate - the absolute top tier in summoning spells. One could make a decent argument that, at ECL 14 specifically, the Nar Demonbinder with a few thematically-focused 8th lvl spells is still ahead of the Wizard who still only has 7th lvl spells, but past ECL 14, ND starts falling behind, and catching up is impossible. And heck! Even at ECL 14, they're only winning against standard builds. A cleric 5/ur priest 9 is the same ECL, basically wasted 5 levels of his build, and he's got Gate at the same level Nar Demonbinder has peaked. It's not even the best at its job for its level.

This quote is saying in no uncertain terms that WotC is saying 14th level characters binding Mariliths is not only expected but encouraged as well.

Secondly, that's not what it's saying. At all.

"There's no one better" is not the same thing as "we expect you to succeed". Consider the following phrase:

"None are more proficient at punching asteroids away from Earth than Mike Tyson."

Now, we could argue the veracity of this statement - maybe give opinions on people whose punches we consider to deliver more force than those of Mike Tyson's punches. But what we can't argue is that Mike Tyson, or any of those other people, could actually stop an asteroid from hitting the earth just by punching it. It's just not a thing they are capable of pulling off, that's just not how physics works. Mike Tyson is certainly more proficient at it than anybody I know. Just not proficient enough to succeed.

"Being the best" and "being competent" are not synonymous phrases. Summoning and binding fiends is dangerous business by the sheer fact that you are making an enemy of a creature more or less made of pure hateful spite, who is incapable of dying. A successful binding will have you looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life, and successful bindings are hard to pull off in the first place. There's a lot of little things that can go wrong. Nar Demonbinders specializing in it means they're better at managing those risks, but it doesn't necessarily mean "WotC fully expects them to succeed every time".

Which means, if a PC cannot take out an unbuffed unsupported Marilith all by themselves, then they need to up their game.

Thirdly, even if WotC's intentions is that NDs are expected to succeed at summoning/binding, "successfully bind a marilith to your will" and "successfully defeat a marilith in honorable 1v1 combat after summoning it" are not synonymous phrases. Wizards don't bind demons to their will by challenging them to a duel - they cheat. That's the whole point of binding: the demon was minding their own business taking a bath in the blood of the innocent or whatever, and just as they were reaching for a rubber duck, they get yoinked across four planar boundaries straight into a magic prison designed specifically to keep them inside forever, and the only guy with a key is standing there insisting he'll only let you go free if you tell him where your pot of gold is. No combat is required, because the demon can't escape the magic prison to fight you at all. And even if it kills you, it's gonna be trapped in there for a good long while. Maybe forever, even. So it has to negotiate, because fighting can't solve it's problems.

Even if WotC expects you to be able to bind a demon, that's not the same thing as "WotC expects you to solo a demon in a fair fight".

Finally, that last part is just patently untrue, and it's the actual reason you're getting pushback. People aren't just allergic to optimization - it's the assertion that a single line of fluff text in a single book gives you the impression that WotC expects a lvl 14 PC to solo a CR 17 monster, when not only the fundamental math behind encounter design explicitly disagrees with that conclusion, but basically every single example NPC ever designed by WotC fails to live up to what you're imagining. WotC designed countless NPCs to showcase what their PrCs could do for a PCs build, basically every single one of those builds is blatantly breaking the rules in their own favor in at least one way, and they're all still trash. I was a little disappointed to see that Unapproachable East is one of the books that doesn't have sample NPCs, as I would've loved to just pull up a lvl 12 or whatever Nar Demonbinder and been like "this is what expected performance looks like for the exact trash you're praising". Alas, I'll have to settle for the dozens and dozens of other mid-high level caster builds sprinkled throughout the game.

[Zanos]

I remember in nwn2 you can throw maximized orbs as well. And no one used them. Everyone would rather play the spell resistance game with spell penetration and assay resistance and cast powerful AoE spells rather than use orbs. And melee characters were just as deadly as spellcasters. In nwn2 you can really see how wizards restricted to combat only spells and a single metamagic per spell aren't that strong at all.

Which is why I seriously doubt that tabletop, which has more options and is completely unrestricted by the game engine, would consider a nwn2 wizard high op.

People don't use orbs in NWN2 because:
-Better homebrew spells exist:
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Isaac%2..._Missile_Storm
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Isaac%2..._Missile_Storm
-Almost all fights feature somewhere between 6-20 enemies, inflating the value of area of effect spells and devaluing single target spells.
-Spell resistance is uncommon in all the single player campaigns. The only enemies I can think of that actually have high enough SR to be problematic are the monk vampires in MotB.

You actually wouldn't play a wizard at all in NWN2 unless you specifically wanted to use Red Wizard of Thay. Sorcerer is better than wizard for almost all builds because spell versatility is pointless in most D&D CRPGs, where spells that are useful out of combat functionally don't exist and you just want more casts of the 2-3 spells per spell level that are good. CRPGs are so different than PNP I don't know why you would even bring this up as a balance point, and be wrong about it to boot.

I still fail to see how dodging 4 attacks rises to the level of "cheese". Invisibility lets you be untargetable. Is that "cheese"? That's a 2nd level spell. How about mirror image? How is making the wizard harder to kill 4 times a day "cheese"?

I had wizards with abrupt jaunt bleeding to death at low levels. You know how I did that? 2 archers. First archer forces him to use abrupt jaunt. Second archer hits him because you can only use 1 immediate action a round.

If your table considers an ability that is thwarted by 2 archers "cheese", I shudder to think just how much of the game you have banned at your table. In any case, I think you are playing at an extremely low-op table and is not the norm.

It's cheese because of the gap in performance between a wizard that does and doesn't have abrupt jaunt is massive at low levels. It's effectively "negate four melee attacks a day." That's an incredibly valuable ability. Just because an ability doesn't work in every conceivable situation doesn't mean it's not cheesy. If there was a way to get Spell Immunity at level 1 for one feat would you consider that to not be cheesy because a character can still be hit with a greatsword and killed? Maybe you wouldn't, but most people measure cheese by the gap in performance by characters who are and aren't using cheesy strategies, and don't discount something as cheese just because it doesn't make a character invincible in all scenarios.

When I have the time I will comb through some of the books for the wizard builds. Let's see if there is one on the same level as a blaster who uses maximize spell.

You won't find any abrupt jaunt wizards using orb of fire/force.

[Anthrowhale]

Incorrect. 1d8 siangham is 2lbs. So you're looking at 15d6 instead.
Let's leave telekinesis out for now. Blade Barrier does the same damage and is a reflex save instead of an attack roll.

Marilith's are large, so they use a 2lb siangham which does 1d8 damage. 15 of them will thus weigh 30 lbs (within the 50lb limit of Greater Teleport) and do 15d8 damage.

The reason to consider a TK approach is that it supports a range of 1040' which can counter longer ranged combatants. Blade Barrier in contrast has a maximum range of 260'. Project Image even provides a good means to achieve long range targeting.

[AvatarVecna]

It's cheese because of the gap in performance between a wizard that does and doesn't have abrupt jaunt is massive at low levels. It's effectively "negate four melee attacks a day." That's an incredibly valuable ability. Just because an ability doesn't work in every conceivable situation doesn't mean it's not cheesy. If there was a way to get Spell Immunity at level 1 for one feat would you consider that to not be cheesy because a character can still be hit with a greatsword and killed? Maybe you wouldn't, but most people measure cheese by the gap in performance by characters who are and aren't using cheesy strategies, and don't discount something as cheese just because it doesn't make a character invincible in all scenarios.

Slight correction: it negates four melee full attacks per day. The big draw is that, if somebody starts their turn in melee range of you (or is the rare monster that can get a bunch of attacks in the same turn they move), they have a solid chance of wasting you even if their damage per attack is crap, because this game tends to bias in favor of offense - even bad damage just tends to outpace HP, no matter which side of the screen you're on. But if you have, for example, some method of escaping the first attack by teleporting away (thus putting you out of range of all attacks), well that would be pretty effective. In fact, the more attacks they have, the more attacks you're preventing with a single use of this ability. This makes it pretty freaking good against somebody with a ton of attacks per round, who can't easily switch to a ranged weapon (such as if they don't have one, or their ranged options are spell-dependent and they've already started a full attack this round).

(You already knew all this, just felt like making a slight correction to make it more clear to others why this ability is considered really really good, especially in this exact scenario.)

You won't find any abrupt jaunt wizards using orb of fire/force.

Seconded. Admittedly, though, it can be hard to tell. WotC example builds tend to be "core + whatever book you're reading right now". Orb spells are from Tome Of Blood, Miniatures Handbook, and Spell Compendium, which is pretty limited selection for finding broken caster builds. And because it tends to focus on core stuff, it's pretty easy for a particularly powerful spell and especially skill (cough cough Diplomacy) to end up in an NPC statblock, without any idea of if WotC gave it to them because they didn't know the cheese strat, or because they were signalling "this is what expected performance looks like".

However, one place this doesn't happen often is feats: core feats tend to be situationally good at best (metamagic and item crafting are theoretically powerful, but NPCs rarely seem to be leveraging them in an effective way). Metamagic tends to be very hit or miss, especially core stuff. However, there is one core feat that is obviously the bare minimum of optimization for a particular class, and I'm struggling to find even a single NPC I've seen take it in any book: Natural Spell. No druid without that feat could be considered optimized - it's the bare minimum, it's right in core, so there's no excuse for an NPC druid to not have it other than "WotC legitimately thought some lame core feat was a better pick".

[ciopo]

Legends says wild shape is a ribbon at most

[Anthrowhale]

The most optimal option for telekinesis is 15 colossal weapons totaling 375 lbs (4d6 x 15 = 210 avg damage).

Honestly, sacrificing Greater Teleport mobility to deal more damage seems sketchy.

I believe you could make colossal weapons work with Greater Teleport by relying upon colossal arrows (3d6 damage). I didn't go there, because (as far as I know) the weight of colossal weapons is only specified in Savage Species, with the specification there contradictory to the player's handbook in case of size. It's somewhat murky.

[Saintheart]

I finally read and looked up everything you said. But I really didn't need to read past call avalanche now did I?

Perma buried no-save marilith forced to run away because she can't do anything. Is that right? Your character kills colossal telekinesis as well.

I doubt a DM would say it's perma-buried, but it puts rather a crimp in the creature's ability to hit anyone, since using spell-like abilities - i.e. teleporting out of burial - costs a standard action, after which it can only perform a move action. At best it gets within melee range. My answer to that is to cast defensively (DC 20, not hard for a 14th level character who, if he's been maxing Concentration, can have a +17 before stat bonuses are factored in.) and hit the marilith with another Call Avalanche, spellwarped. At which point we repeat the process, since the marilith once more has to waste its standard action on teleporting and then not doing much else.

It's not a no-risk strategy, but it does rule out flying swords coming at my head too. But then the telekinesis can be stopped by another Druid 4 spell, Friendly Fire. Any ranged attack gets flicked at "another target" within 30 feet, let's say, the marilith.

The hole in it is the marilith getting "smart" and teleporting itself with perfect accuracy about fifty feet above my head, and relying on falling damage. Things get a bit trickier then :)

[Anthrowhale]

...

A spellwarp tangent---Dragon #358 has "Slimy Spell" metamagic which adds a nauseate 1 round rider with a reflex save to 1 targeted creature. Under spellwarp, that becomes an automatic nauseated condition, a universal action debuff eliminating all but a move action.