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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    The Question/s:

    What stock D&D 3.5 monster, or stock D&D 3.5 monster with legitimate templates applied, can qualify for a given prestige class without taking class levels in anything?

    Alternatively, what stock D&D 3.5 monsters - or stock D&D 3.5 monsters with legitimate templates applied - could qualify for a prestige class if they only, dammit, had just one other prerequisite they're missing from their stock stats?


    Here, in this thread, we'll hopefully find some answers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Examples
    Under "Qualifies", the Marilith (CR 17) from the SRD. It has more than 8 ranks in Concentration, and it can use telekinesis as a spell-like ability. As such, it qualifies outright for Master of the Unseen Hand, a Prestige Class from Complete Warrior.

    Under "Close", the Valkyrie (CR 9) from Tome of Battle. As a stock standard monster, it has Power Attack and a BAB of +11. Accordingly, it would be able to qualify for the Bear Warrior PrC from Complete Warrior ... if it had a rage or frenzy ability, which, unfortunately, it lacks.


    Guiding principles/rules:

    This isn't an optimisation exercise as such; it's more a "huh, interesting combination" thing to give DMs an easier-bake way to put intriguing prestige classes on their monsters with a minimum of fuss. No practicality required, no CR calculation required, it's just spinning ideas about what clicks into what or what could click into what if it only had X or Y.

    • Assume level adjustment is irrelevant, that you're sitting in the space of a DM who's able to ignore that for the purposes of putting a monster together.

    • Feat prerequisites marked "Special" should be noted if they appear to disqualify the creature, but are ignored for the purposes of qualifying.

    • Creatures with an alignment of "always X" incompatible with a proposed prestige class's prereqs are deemed as lacking one prerequisite. Exceptions exist, but the "always" suggests it should be so rare as to make it impractical or implausible for a DM to pull it out unless under very exceptional circumstances.

    • Creatures with an alignment of "usually X" incompatible with a proposed prestige class's prereqs do not have an impediment to qualification. It is implied in "usually" that exceptions are common enough to stretch this prerequisite.

    • "One prerequisite missing" can be ranks in a specific skill, an ability to cast spells, a feat, a single spell-like ability, an insufficient BAB, or similar. Don't put multiple skills together, count missing spell-likes separately.

    • If creatures are inherent casters, their list of "typical" spells count as the only spells they can put up as prerequisites. e.g. a Drider can cast second level spells, but none of them include Scare or Cause Fear on the typical stats. The drider would count as missing at least one prerequisite for Dread Witch. (It's also missing ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), which would make it missing a total of two prerequisites for this exercise.)

    • Masters of the Wild rules on "virtual feats" apply, i.e. if the creature has an ability or weapon proficiency that duplicates or grants the benefit of a feat otherwise needed to qualify for something, that satisfies the prerequisite.

    • Player races can be used for this exercise, but you have to use their monster stats, not their "as characters" semi-templates.

    • Don't be afraid to put up 'Close' cases! There might actually be a way found to work it.

    • An advanced stock monster - as in, advanced by adding HD to the monster according to its statblock - can use the increased BAB, saves, skills, or hit dice that result to qualify for a proposed prestige class. While the idea of this is about staying as close-ish as possible to stock monster statblocks, if increased RHD under this method of improving monsters gives you access to skill ranks and/or feats which permit you to qualify, please point these calculations out clearly for the benefit of any DMs coming through here to look. Please stick to the advancement guidelines given in the monster's statblock.

    • Creatures with "Advancement: By character class" can't use added player classes to provide prerequisites; it defeats the purpose of looking for close-to-stock standard monsters who can prestige.

    • All first party books including Dragon Compendium, and all Dragon magazine, is open for this. No Pathfinder or third party I'm afraid.



    If the thread gets enough interest, I'll compile a running table with links to posts up here so future generations can marvel at your genius and generosity. :D And I'll be contributing as well.

    That's it, have at it everyone! :D

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    And also, to start us off with some ideas:

    Close: Stone Giant (SRD) into Hulking Hurler (Complete Warrior).

    Hulking Hurler requires Large Size, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (any thrown weapon), and BAB +5. Standard Stone Giant has all of these except for Weapon Focus. Its advancement is by character class, so we can't use advancing HD to qualify.


    Qualifies: Cloud/Hill/Fire/Frost/Storm Giant (SRD) into War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook).

    War Hulk requires Cleave, Large size, and BAB +5. All SRD giants (except the Stone Giant) meet all of these prerequisites.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    An interesting idea, I'm looking through for some prospects now.

    Assassin seems relatively easy to get into; all it takes is some skill ranks. Hide and move silently are pretty common; disguise is rarer, but quite a few humanoid shaped monsters have it. About a third of the fiends can directly take it. A few more can also take it by either advancing HD or reallocating the skill ranks they start with (and that have disguise as a standard skill); most of course could get the disguise ranks by buying them cross-class, as you don't need that many.

    Horizon walker is somewhat feasible; while few monsters have Kn Geography, it's otherwise a pretty easy set of pre-reqs.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Close: Greater Barghest (SRD) into Fiend of Corruption (Fiend Folio).

    Fiend of Corruption requires to be an Outsider (Evil), a base Will save of +7 or more, 10 ranks in Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive, as well as access to either charm person or charm monster in the form of spells or spell-like abilities. The standard greater barghest checks almost all of these, but despite having Disguise as a class skills it sports a whopping 0 ranks in it. By advancing via its feeding ability, a greater barghest looking to enter the PrC could gain all the required ranks with only 1 extra HD (as an Outsider with 18 Int it gains 12 skill points/HD).

    Interestingly enough, a standard succubus is not even close to qualify for Fiend of Corruption despite appearing in the cover art of the class as it's lacking in both the base Will save and Sense Motive skill ranks departments.

    Qualifies: Barbed Devil, Bone Devil, Cerebrilith, Erynies, and Pit Fiend (SRD) into Fiend of Possession (Fiend Folio).

    All these lovely devils possess the necessary prerequisites of being Outsider (Evil), having a base Will save of +5 or more, and 6 ranks in both Hide and Knowledge (arcana) to take FoP levels. Ice devils and imps are close but don't get quite there in their standard forms, as they lack Hide ranks and Will respectively.
    Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2022-05-12 at 01:27 PM.
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Any monster with BAB +6 could qualify for Ruathar if they did a great service for the elves instead of trying to, you know, eat them.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Any monster with BAB +6 could qualify for Ruathar if they did a great service for the elves instead of trying to, you know, eat them.
    How about a Baelnorn!

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    A couple more:

    Close: Marrusault (Sandstorm) (CR 5) into Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior).
    Marrusalts have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Falchion) and Weapon Focus in the same weapon and BAB of +6. What they don't have is 3 ranks in Craft (Weaponsmithing), and they advance by character class.

    However...

    Qualifies: Marrusault (Sandstorm) (CR 5) into War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook).
    Marrusaults are Large, have Cleave, and their BAB is higher than +5. They qualify outright for War Hulk.

    and...

    Close: Marrutact (Sandstorm) (CR 5) into Horizon Walker (DMG).
    Marrutacts have 10 freaking ranks in Knowledge (Geography), but they don't have Endurance.


    Came across these guys while looking at Marrulurk into Assassin, which unfortunately isn't even close.

    Also:

    Qualifies: Glaistig Mindbender (Monster Manual 3) (CR 8) into Mindbender (Complete Arcane)
    Mindbender requires ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive as well as Charm Person at caster level 5 as a spell or spell-like ability. The hilariously-appropriately-named Glaistig Mindbender ticks all of these boxes, right down to alignment, thus allowing DMs to face parties with a Glaistig Mindbender Mindbender. Which could be kind of terrifying given the first thing a Mindbender gets is telepathy, and has Ghost Sound and high modifiers in all the influencing skills.

    Close: Glaistig (Monster Manual 3) (CR 6) into Mindbender (Complete Arcane)
    The default glaistig from the same volume meets all the criteria except for casting Charm Person as a spell or spell-like ability. Even meets the caster level requirements otherwise.

    Interestingly, on a quick survey none of the SRD fey creatures such as pixies, spirtes, etc. seem to qualify for this class despite the enchantment themes of such creatures.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    From The Monster Manual, all of these qualify for War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook):
    Angel, Planetar; Angel, Solar; Athach; Behir; Demon, Balor; Demon, Bebilith; Demon, Glabrezu; Demon, Hezrou; Demon, Nalfeshnee; Demon, Vrock; Horned Devil; Ice Devil; Pit Fiend; Adult Green Dragon; Very Old Red Dragon; Dragon Turtle; Earth and Water Elementals of size Large+; Giants, as noted earlier; Gray Render; Hill Giant Dire Wereboar; Nightmare, Cauchemar; Nightwalker; Purple Worm; Noble Salamander; Green Slaad; Death Slaad; Androsphinx; Hieracosphinx; Tarrasque; Titan; Elder Tojanida; Elder Xorn.
    A fundamental truth about existence: All is to be laughed at.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Qualifies: A Zombie (SRD template) of any monster with 6+ Hit Dice into Tomb Warden (Libris Mortis)

    Zombies get Toughness. Zombie BAB is half the base creature's HD (thus, +3 for a 6HD creature). A Zombie's Will save is half the base creature's HD+2 (thus, +5 for a 6HD creature). Zombies change the creature type to Undead. Zombies are neutral evil, a nonchaotic alignment. These are all the prerequisites for the Tomb Warden.

    Tomb Wardens have a prereq of Special: Tomb Warden must dedicate itself to protection of a tomb, graveyard, or resting place of the dead. This is arguably impossible since a zombie has no INT score, but it faithfully follows whatever order is given to it ... and therefore by its actions dedicates itself to protection of a tomb if that's the instruction from its creator.

    Therefore, Zombies of 6 HD+ creatures qualify automatically for Tomb Warden. And it's not that bad as a short, 3 level prestige class for a low-end, fixed-position undead: full BAB, turn immunity, knows where all intruders in the tomb are, gets a +1 to attack, damage rolls.

    EDIT: Other alternatives - the Nether Creature template from Dragon #297 grants Dodge, Mobility, and Toughness (while still turning the creature undead.) Another easy-bake way to qualify.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Close: Bear Warrior requires BaB+7, power attack and rage or frenzy ability.

    A Barbazu has Bab +6, power attack and battle frenzy which is described as similar to a barbarians rage. Advancing it by one HD will raise BaB to +7 and therefore qualify.

    I wonder if there is an option to keep the beard.

    Edit:
    Also unsurprisingly Doppelganger qualifies for Warshaper as it only requires BaB+4 and the ability to change shape. I think there will be quite a few monsters that fit those requirements (gold dragons for example).
    Last edited by Gorthawar; 2022-05-13 at 04:50 AM.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthawar View Post
    Edit:
    Also unsurprisingly Doppelganger qualifies for Warshaper as it only requires BaB+4 and the ability to change shape. I think there will be quite a few monsters that fit those requirements (gold dragons for example).
    Lot of stuff with the Lycanthrope template out there...
    Last edited by Saintheart; 2022-05-13 at 06:44 AM.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Qualifies: Night Hag (SRD) (CR 9) into Force Missile Mage (Dragon Compendium, Dragon #328.)

    It has enough Concentration and Spellcraft ranks, and per p. 76 of Complete Arcane, a spell-like ability is sufficient for the requirement of casting Magic Missile. Night Hags get Magic Missile as a spell-like ability (CL 8) at will. And it has Combat Casting.

    Night Hags don't get any native spellcasting, though, so the class features would presumably have to apply to the spell-like ability.


    Qualifies: Succubus (SRD) (CR 7) into Assassin (SRD).

    Has the all-important Disguise skill ranks and sufficient Hide and Move Silently. Qualifies.

    Not a massive amount of synergy, though; INT's a smidge too low to cast the full range of Assassin spells, and while the immunity to poison is handy, there's not a lot in the monster that actually makes it good at being the Predator.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Qualifies: If Advanced to 9 HD -- Spectral Lyrist (Libris Mortis) into Dirgesinger (Libris Mortis).

    The default Spectral Lyrist is missing the Requiem feat and the 4 Knowledge (Religion) ranks needed to qualify for Dirgesinger. It otherwise has the right alignment and specifically has bardic music abilities as (Sp) "that function identically" to the Fascinate and Suggestion bardic class features of the same name. Under Masters of the Wild, that's enough to qualify for bardic music.

    Spectral Lyrists can, however, be advanced under their statblock to a maximum of 12 HD. We don't need to go that far, but adding a further 3 HD - from 6 HD to 9 HD - then gives them another feat slot. This can then be filled with Requiem, for which they qualify outright. In the increased HD, they also gain enough skill points to take 4 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) even if they have to go cross-class to do so. Lastly, because it's 3 HD added and not four, the Spectral Lyrist's CR doesn't increase under this advancement, remaining at CR 4.

    Dirgesinger turns the Spectral Lyrist into a minor buffer character for undead encounters - it adds turn resistance to any undead in the area - and also does an anti-Inspire Courage, debuffing attack and Will saves by 2.


    Qualifies: If Advanced to 16 HD -- Elemental Weird (Ice Weird, Snow Weird) (Frostburn) into Blood Magus (Complete Arcane).

    The only thing these elemental casters lack on Blood Magus' prerequisites is Toughness. 1 HD brings the total ECL to 16 and therefore provides the feat slot needed for the feat to be taken. Ice and Snow Weirds are CR 15.

    Blood Magus has a Special prerequisite that the character has to have been killed and then "returned to life". Elementals can't be raised or resurrected, but can be wished or true-resurrected thus being "restored to life", so while it takes a somewhat uniqie situation, it can be done.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Summoning Ooze

    Almost: Alienist
    Lacks the K/Planes ranks required. As an intelligent creature, peaceful contact with an alienist/pseudonatural creature is feasible. It's hard to recommend more than a single level since Alienist sucks, but if you want an ooze summoning eldeitch horrors, all you need to do is shuffle some skill points. Might need a big ooze to get around cross class skill caps.

    Edit: Any monster with 5+ HD can theoretically enter Survivor. A single level for +2 on saves and ambush Immunity is easily worth it. Lvl 2 for another +1 to Saves and evasion might be worth it if you've got reason to believe you'll get AoE'd.

    EDIT 2: I know this probably isn't super-helpful since I'm not even suggesting any specific combo, but...dragons. Just, dragons. Dragons have an excellent chassis and lots of HD. Their feats and skills are de facto unassigned, with vague general guidelines for what to assign them to. They even get spellcasting, potentially from two of the best lists in the game. I would imagine that an older dragon could qualify for just about any PrC with just race stuff if they put their mind to it.

    EDIT 3:

    Mind Flayer can go straight into Illithid Savant, surprise surprise. Same for Beholder straight into Beholder Mage.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2022-05-14 at 01:56 AM.


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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Lilitu

    Almost: Maiden Of Pain
    The only prereq here that definitely requires a mechanical change is the feat (Violate Spell), so you'd need to swap a feat for that. But if you do, ooooo what a combo. An extra domain, almost full cleric spell progression, and you can deliver melee touch spells with a whip for extra reach. Thematically appropriate as well as mechanically effective. It's not quite full cleric spell progression, but it's pretty close.


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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Close: Hobgoblin Warcaster (Monster Manual V) into Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror).

    Frustratingly close. This thing is a fourth level hobgoblin Wizard at CR 4. It meets all but one of Dread Witch's criteria, right down to having and casting Cause Fear and Scare from its spellbook. But it's short by 2 on the base Will save, because the Warcaster's Will save is propped up by Iron Will.

    It adds some nice abilities at this CR: Spell Resistance 14, temporary hitpoints and a +2 to attack rolls if he saves against a spell, and outright fiats the Warcaster as casting as a 4th level Wizard. Also gets Battle Magic Tactics which might be kind of useful if you have a massed group of casters. Can't advance by HD, it advances by character class.

    Dread Witch has the Special prerequisite of having failed a Will save against fear sometime, which given how Warcasters are made seems pretty likely.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    I think for sanity I might start concentrating on individual PrCs rather than randomly throwing monsters in here other than when I'm interested. Anyway!

    As A.V points out, beholders can qualify for Beholder Mage.

    How about beholders' cultists, though, the Ocular Adept (FRCS)?
    - Monstrous Humanoid or Humanoid
    - Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil
    - Base save Fort +4
    - 8 ranks in Concentration
    - Endurance

    There's only two monsters I can find, screening for Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids. Two templates relevantly switch creature type to Monstrous Humanoid -- Tauric Creature (MM 2) and Incarnate Construct (SS) -- which theoretically increases the range of possibilities to include any Medium-size or Large corporeal animal, beast, or vermin with at least four legs, and any humanoid-ish construct, but I suspect finding animals, magical beasts, vermin, or human-ish constructs with 8 ranks in Concentration before the template will be a needle in a haystack exercise.

    Anyway:

    Close: Abeil Queen (Monster Manual II) (CR 12). Has Concentration ranks, Fort save, it's a Monstrous Humanoid, and its Fort save is +4. It's even 'usually lawful', thus matching the LE or NE alignment. It only lacks Endurance. We can't HD-advance our way out of it, Queens advance by character class.

    Abeil Queens cast as 16th level druids, and this adds some low-end cleric spellcasting and a few rays. And allows you to put a standing Dad joke into battle, because you'll have created a Bee-holder Cultist.

    If Advanced to 12 HD, Close: Kopru (Monster Manual II) (CR 6 originally, CR 7 if advanced). Kopru only come with 8 HD and somewhat unusually have a massive +11 in Concentration even allowing for stat bonuses, but they're missing Endurance and they have a weak Fort +2. Advancing them to the absolute limit their statblocks allow - 12 HD - gives them another feat slot to take Endurance and raises their base Fort save to +4. But none of that helps with their alignment, which is always chaotic evil and incompatible with Ocular Adept's Lawful or Neutral Evil.

    This'd be pretty unusual given Kopru are meant for aquatic campaigns.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Guiding principles/rules:
    How are we feeling about adding a flaw to a monster just to get the only feat it's lacking to qualify for a certain prestige class? I know it's kinda cheap, but it sounds right up the alley of a DM who just wants to give Shadow Weave Magic to their spellcasting monster. Or at least closer to the mindset than advancing the creature by 3 whole levels to grab the feat.

    In a somewhat related addition, I'd like to echo AvatarVecna on the topic of dragons: how are we feeling about those? The "stock" d&d true dragons (even the DWK kind) are mostly lacking stock stats, or rather they're missing each and every customizable part that enable this whole thought exercise. Should dragons be allowed as entries? Can we just default to "X-color dragon of Y age: qualifies for Z" whenever there's no obvious path to acquire a bunch of niche feats and/or skills to qualify for a given PrC?
    Last edited by Uncle Pine; 2022-05-15 at 04:31 AM.
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Pine View Post
    How are we feeling about adding a flaw to a monster just to get the only feat it's lacking to qualify for a certain prestige class? I know it's kinda cheap, but it sounds right up the alley of a DM who just wants to give Shadow Weave Magic to their spellcasting monster. Or at least closer to the mindset than advancing the creature by 3 whole levels to grab the feat.

    In a somewhat related addition, I'd like to echo AvatarVecna on the topic of dragons: how are we feeling about those? The "stock" d&d true dragons (even the DWK kind) are mostly lacking stock stats, or rather they're missing each and every customizable part that enable this whole thought exercise. Should dragons be allowed as entries? Can we just default to "X-color dragon of Y age: qualifies for Z" whenever there's no obvious path to acquire a bunch of niche feats and/or skills to qualify for a given PrC?
    I actually think both of those might be worth a little paragraph of advice.

    On flaws, I'll put something in the top post saying "Hello, long-suffering DM, if you're only missing one feat, then a very easy way to qualify is by taking a flaw to give yourself the feat slot you need. This won't help you out with creatures that are lacking skill ranks, but remember if it's just a feat missing, this is your go-to pinch of yeast to make the bread rise." Happy to hear suggestions pointed out in the 'build' posts, though, that's totally yours! The whole point of the 'Close' category is to point out to a DM that it's just one thing that's missing, whether skills, or alignment, or feat, or what - it might be a bit beyond the scope of the thread to point out to DMs all the ways they could pull in a missing prerequisite, but we can certainly point people at some obvious ideas.

    On dragons, I'm happy to take entries if people are inspired and enthusiastic, and we'll see how it goes! But I had in mind to throw in a separate paragraph of advice which will be "Look, dragons are awesome at qualifying for almost anything they want, given their feats and skill selections are almost explicitly silly putty and they can cast more or less whatever the heck they want. Don't think that the omission of dragons from entries means they can't qualify; quite the contrary, for the slightly-other-than-totally-lazy DM they likely can, easily. If you have a prestige class in mind, odds are pretty strong that a dragon can finagle its way into it. Enjoy, or make suggestions anyway."


    And can I say thanks to everyone who's already contributed - the input is greatly appreciated.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Close: Hobgoblin Warcaster (Monster Manual V) into Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror).

    Frustratingly close. This thing is a fourth level hobgoblin Wizard at CR 4. It meets all but one of Dread Witch's criteria, right down to having and casting Cause Fear and Scare from its spellbook. But it's short by 2 on the base Will save, because the Warcaster's Will save is propped up by Iron Will.
    Even if the Warcaster could qualify right off the bat, note that without a level in Wizard, Dread Witch could not progress Wizard casting for the Warcaster. One level of Wizard should do the trick.

    That goes for all of the spellcasting creatures that do not actually have levels in their spellcasting base class.

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I actually think both of those might be worth a little paragraph of advice.

    On flaws, I'll put something in the top post saying "Hello, long-suffering DM, if you're only missing one feat, then a very easy way to qualify is by taking a flaw to give yourself the feat slot you need. This won't help you out with creatures that are lacking skill ranks, but remember if it's just a feat missing, this is your go-to pinch of yeast to make the bread rise." Happy to hear suggestions pointed out in the 'build' posts, though, that's totally yours! The whole point of the 'Close' category is to point out to a DM that it's just one thing that's missing, whether skills, or alignment, or feat, or what - it might be a bit beyond the scope of the thread to point out to DMs all the ways they could pull in a missing prerequisite, but we can certainly point people at some obvious ideas.
    It might be able to help with skills actually. There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called "Open Minded" that gives 5 skill points, and there's a feat in BoED called "Nymph's Kiss" that gives you an extra skill point per HD. The latter is hard to qualify for (alignment reasons), but the former is open to anybody and can be taken multiple times IIRC. A monster who's only missing some ranks in a skill could get 10 skill points into whatever they're missing. It won't be enough a lot of the time, since these will likely be cross-class skill ranks being purchased, but like...

    One thing I was looking at is Animal Lord, which has very easy requirements except for Handle Animal 4 ranks and K/Nature 2 ranks. Very few monsters have both of those as well as a particular third skill/feat combo. I'm not sure Animal Lord is worth taking on basically anybody, but it's neat fluff, and I bet that with flaws for Open Minded (or just the feat in the Feat Combo mentioned), lots of things could qualify.


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    you should probably just lynch me on principle.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    It might be able to help with skills actually. There's a feat in Complete Adventurer called "Open Minded" that gives 5 skill points, and there's a feat in BoED called "Nymph's Kiss" that gives you an extra skill point per HD. The latter is hard to qualify for (alignment reasons), but the former is open to anybody and can be taken multiple times IIRC. A monster who's only missing some ranks in a skill could get 10 skill points into whatever they're missing. It won't be enough a lot of the time, since these will likely be cross-class skill ranks being purchased, but like...

    One thing I was looking at is Animal Lord, which has very easy requirements except for Handle Animal 4 ranks and K/Nature 2 ranks. Very few monsters have both of those as well as a particular third skill/feat combo. I'm not sure Animal Lord is worth taking on basically anybody, but it's neat fluff, and I bet that with flaws for Open Minded (or just the feat in the Feat Combo mentioned), lots of things could qualify.
    Yep, the more I think about it, I think that material's going to be useful. Rather than me blurring the categories by saying something qualifies because it's advanced, I might make strict entries to the thread along the following lines:

    <Prestige Class Name>

    Monsters that qualify: (Outright, nothing else needed).

    Monsters that are Close:
    - Here's what's missing (Down to 1 or maximum 2 prerequisites)
    - Simple Suggestions for qualifying (flaw feat, advance monster, single class level, template)


    The concern I had is a creep in thread scope since I'd like to hold to simple solutions for DMs to qualify monsters. Sure lots of different monsters can probably be qualified with three or four class levels or big, but it immediately starts to get overly complicated, and the DM starts to say "Well why would I bother trying to use a monster, I'll just do straight class levels since I'm going to be doing half the work anyway." And I do say that knowing advancing a monster is not simple in itself.

    The other thing is that if a creature can be said to be "Close" because taking a class level in something solves its missing feat or class feature problem, it makes the range of qualifying monsters a lot larger. As a not-very-good example, the Abolisher PrC from Lords of Madness has the following prereqs:

    Alignment: Any nonchaotic
    Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4 ranks , Knowledge (nature) 9 ranks
    Feats: Track
    Type: Cannot be an aberration
    Special: Wild empathy class feature


    For argument's sake, if we leave aside the Knowledge rank prerequisite, pretty much any not-insane, not-Aberration monster can take the Abolisher class if it has a single level in Ranger.

    Not that I'm that worried about it, just pointing out the number of monsters that can potentially qualify for things. Maybe I'll just seek to identify monsters that can qualify with a single class level in a given class, and focus heavily on one prestige class at a time. That said - throw suggestions in wherever, guys, I'll get around to them sooner or later :)

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Abolisher (Lords of Madness)

    Prerequisites:
    Alignment: Any nonchaotic
    Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering) 4 ranks , Knowledge (nature) 9 ranks
    Feats: Track
    Type: Cannot be an aberration
    Special: Wild empathy class feature

    Monsters who qualify: None.

    Monsters who are close:

    Troll Hunter (SRD). (CR 11)
    Missing:
    - Needs 3 more ranks in Knowledge (Nature)

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - Open Minded feat (Complete Adventurer) to gain 5 skill ranks instantly, picked up via a flaw.

    Note:
    Troll Hunters are "usually" Chaotic Evil.

    Dryad (SRD). (CR 3)
    Missing:
    - Needs 4 ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (a cross-class skill)
    - Needs Track

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - Single level in Ranger grants Track, 6+INT skill points and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as class skill

    Note:
    Dryads are "usually" Chaotic Good.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Abjurant Champion (Complete Arcane)

    Prerequisites:
    Base Attack Bonus: +5
    Feats: Combat Casting
    Spellcasting: Must be able to cast 1st-level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell.
    Special: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.


    Monsters who qualify:
    Amnizu (Monster Manual 2) (CR 7), Rakshasha (SRD) (CR 10), Uvuudaum (SRD) (CR 27)

    Notes:
    - Complete Arcane allows qualification via possession of appropriate SLAs. Some of these creatures meet prerequisites via an Abjuration SLA.
    - Abjurant Champion does not advance SLAs explicitly. Levels in casting classes may be warranted.
    - Abjurant Champion does not advance inherent spellcasting (e.g. the Rakshasha). A level in the appropriate caster class for the creature resolves this problem.



    Monsters who are close:

    Aboleth Mage (SRD), Bone Naga (Monster Manual II) (CR 11), Dark Naga (SRD) (CR 8), Demilich (SRD) (CR 29), Guardian Naga (SRD) (CR 10), Gynosphinx (SRD) (CR 8), Hebi-No-Onna (Oriental Adventures) (CR 17), Ki-Rin (Oriental Adventures) (CR 18), Marut (SRD) (CR 15), Mind Flayer Sorcerer (SRD) (CR 17), Psurlon (Giant, Elder) Monster Manual 2) (CR 9), Spirit Naga (SRD) (CR 9), Water Naga (SRD) (CR 7), Worm that Walks (SRD) (CR 26)

    Missing:
    - Proficiency with one martial weapon

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, picked up via a flaw.
    - Monstrous Humanoids, Fey, human-shaped Elementals, and Undead are proficient with whatever weapons are mentioned in their statblock. Check whether the creature's weapon is a martial weapon.
    - Giants and Outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons.

    Note:
    - Abjurant Champion does not advance inherent spellcasting. A level in the appropriate caster class for the creature resolves this problem.
    - Complete Arcane allows qualification via possession of appropriate SLAs. Some of these creatures meet prerequisites via an Abjuration SLA.
    - Abjurant Champion does not improve SLAs explicitly. May need adaptation if the creature qualifies via SLA but has no spellcasting capacity.
    - Worm that Walks casts any spell it knew while it was alive. Can easily include Abjuration arcane spell of 1st level or more.

    Arcanaloth (Monster Manual 2) (CR 17), Immoth (Monster Manual 2) (CR 9)


    Missing:
    - Combat Casting.

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - Flaw feat to pick up Combat Casting.

    Note:
    - Arcanaloth has no 'typical spells' named in its casting capacity, but has Spell Focus (Abjuration) as a specific feat.
    - Immoth has no 'typical spells' named in casting capacity.
    - Outsiders have proficiency with all martial weapons.
    - Abjurant Champion does not advance SLAs explicitly. Levels in casting classes (esp. Wizard or Sorcerer) may be warranted.
    Lamia Noble (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) (CR 11)

    Missing:
    - One Abjuration spell.

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - Recast spell selection.
    - Flaw feat for Extra Spell.

    Note:
    - Abjurant Champion does not advance inherent spellcasting. A level in the appropriate caster class for the creature resolves this problem.
    Obtaining BAB +5

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - Any Aberration, Animal, Construct, Elemental, Giant, Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, or Vermin with 7+ Hit Dice has BAB +5.
    - Any Dragon, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Outsider with 5+ Hit Dice has BAB +5.
    - Any Fey or Undead with 10+ Hit Dice has BAB +5.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Nymph qualifies for Combat Medic which requires Combat Casting, Dodge, access to cure light wounds, concentration 4 ranks and heal 8 ranks.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Acolyte of the Ego (Tome of Magic)

    Prerequisites:
    Skills: Truespeak 9 ranks
    Type: Humanoid
    Languages: Must speak at least four languages


    Monsters who qualify:
    None.

    Monsters who are close:

    Word Archon (Tome of Magic) (CR 9), Logokron Demon (Tome of Magic) (CR 14), Loquasphinx (Tome of Magic) (CR 8), Painspeaker (Tome of Magic) (CR 4)

    Missing:
    - Humanoid type.

    Suggestions for qualifying:
    - It's a truenaming prestige class, first suggestion is to qualify for something else.
    - Sigh. The Human Heritage feat might apply in the case of the Painspeaker, because it's described as once being a "humanoid", but you're stretchingto do this. Take a flaw feat or advance the creature to 9HD from its 6HD original to pick up the feat slot.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296)

    Prerequisites:
    Alignment: any lawful
    Tumble 8 ranks
    Jump 8 ranks
    Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Stunning Fist
    Special: All 10 levels have to be taken.


    Monsters who qualify:
    None

    Monsters who are close:

    Banshrae (Monster Manual 5) (CR 8)

    Missing:
    - Iron Will

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Flaw feat.
    - Visit Otyugh Hole.

    Note:
    - Banshrae are "usually" CE.
    Banshee (Monster Manual 2) (CR 17), Jahi (Monster Manual 2)), (CR 16), Witchknife Captain (Monster Manual 3) (CR 7)

    Missing:
    - Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    - 6 ranks Jump (Class skill)

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Take level in monk
    - Advance by HD to a multiple of 3, use the feat slot that comes with it, use the skill points to obtain ranks in Jump, and take a flaw to give another feat slot

    Note:
    - Banshees are "usually" neutral evil
    Pit Fiend (CR 20) (SRD), Gerivar (Monster Manual 3) (CR 19)

    Missing:
    - Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Two flaw feats
    - Advance to multiple of 3HD, use feat slot and flaw feat
    Astral Stalker (Monster Manual 3) (CR 12), Guulvorg (Monster Manual 5) (CR 13)

    Missing:
    - Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    - Tumble 8 ranks (Skill is cross-class)

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Level in monk supplies feats plus Tumble class skill
    - Flaw feat to obtain Open Mind and sufficient skill points.

    Note:
    - Guulvorg are "usually" Neutral Evil.
    Lifeleech Otyugh (Monster Manual 3) (CR 8)

    Missing:
    - Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    - Tumble 8 ranks, Jump 4 ranks (Tumble is cross-class, Jump is a class skill)

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Level in monk supplies feats plus Tumble class skill
    - Flaw feat to obtain Open Mind and sufficient skill points.

    Note:
    - Lifeleech Otyughs are "usually" neutral evil
    Hobgoblin Spellscourge (Monster Manual 5) (CR 5)

    Missing:
    - Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
    - 2 ranks Tumble, 2 ranks Jump (Class skills)

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Level in monk supplies skill ranks and both feats.
    Kuo-Toa Monitor (Monster Manual 5) (CR 6)

    Missing:
    - Iron Will
    - Jump 6 ranks (class skill)

    Suggestions for Qualifying:
    - Flaw feats for Iron Will and/or Open Mind.
    - Visit Otyugh Hole.
    - Level in Monk to supply last 6 ranks in Jump

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by redking View Post
    Even if the Warcaster could qualify right off the bat, note that without a level in Wizard, Dread Witch could not progress Wizard casting for the Warcaster. One level of Wizard should do the trick.

    That goes for all of the spellcasting creatures that do not actually have levels in their spellcasting base class.
    The warcaster (and warsoul) both specify that only Wizard is an associated class for the warcaster and warsoul.

    I feel that would rule out prestige classes of any description in a strict RAW perspective.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    I think another way to look at this is what classes are rather easy to enter without having any specific base class.

    Animal Lord, Blackguard, Divine Crusader, Ghost-faced Killer, and Holy Liberator are all good examples that require a feat or a couple skill points that aren't commonly found on most monsters but besides that are very easily accessible to most monsters straight out of the gate.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [DM Helper] Instant Prestige Class, Just Add Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxius View Post
    The warcaster (and warsoul) both specify that only Wizard is an associated class for the warcaster and warsoul.

    I feel that would rule out prestige classes of any description in a strict RAW perspective.
    Any innate spellcaster, such as a dragon, is in the same situation. They need to take a single level of their associated class at least so they can get the base class progression structure, then they can take prestige classes that advance spellcasting if they qualify. So in the case of the Warcaster, it needs to take a level of Wizard or it won't advance spellcasting even if it qualifies for a PrC that advances spellcasting.

    The spellcasting progression PrCs are a special case.

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