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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Getting killed would make him have a direct talk with The Dark One, which would probably be one of thr most significant even in his life.

    Not sure which direction that would push him in, though.
    Very good point, I don't know how I skipped factoring this in... but I suspect some of it may also depend on how omniscient TDO is, given Redcloak's tendency to treat even TDO as being on a "need to know" basis.

    On a closely-related note, is TDO the boss who doesn't look too much into anything as long as you tell him what he wants to hear? Or has he been keeping an eye on Redcloak all along, and he's been putting up with what Redcloak thinks are clever schemes (to act in "TDO's best interest" even if it might conflict with what TDO thinks he wants) because he's willing to wait and see?

    I think the latter would be far more satisfying (and congruent with "Don't screw this up")... but that's just me, and I'm absolutely not the Giant's high priest who understands his will or anything. (^_~)

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    I think you guys take the significance of crayons a bit too far sometimes. Yes, they're mediated by a narrator in a way cutaway panels aren't, and thus they aren't necessarily a faithful representation of what happened, but that doesn't mean that they can't be. Take the story about Durkon's dad, for example - I'd wager it was true, and intended to be taken as truth.

    I bet that the main reason for The Giant to use crayons is not that he wants to have an unreliable narrator to say something misleading, but that crayon drawings are cool and a fun change of pace. The unreliable narrator thing is just a bonus in some cases.
    Possibly-dumb question: Has the Giant ever indicated they have any meaning, other than what I would guess is "something (often a memory) being recounted, therefore they're putting their own spin on it which may or may not be reliable"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coppercloud View Post
    Imagine for a second how the scene looks like to Serini, who doesn't know about Blackwing or the telepathic bond yet. Roy is talking about their plan, then stops mid-sentence and makes a face, Haley mutters "Oh no." and then Roys start cursing and shouting. It really looks like Roy is freaking out for no reason at all, and that is what Haley is reacting to.
    I'm willing to bet Serini will comment on this in the next strip.
    Ha. Nice, and it would be funny. I think it'd be worth a moment of distraction from the story, but hard to be sure with so many reveals around the corner.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I was of the understanding that sorcerers can't use quickened spells
    There are multiple exceptions scattered across many sourcebooks. Most likely in my eyes is that Xykon may either have the Metamagic Sorcerer ACF or that Xykon may have the Sudden Metamagic feat line. I'm not saying he does, mind, just that it's not at all beyond the realm of reasonableness. Additionally, Mr. Burlew may simply not care to bring that rule up. I don't believe we've ever had anyone in the comic talk about the drawbacks of being a spontaneous caster since we have no protagonist spont. 9casters and Elan's PrC means he's not even much of a 6caster anymore. With 3e now two editions out of date, that piece of minutiae may be so irrelevant that it's just not worth considering, particularly in the context that 5e (rightfully, imo) ended up making metamagic a core feature of the sorcerer and not one of the wizard at all.

    On the other hand, who knows, maybe in the final battle Vaarsuvius will find some way to abuse Xykon's limitations on spontaneous metamagic to give Roy a better shot at using Spellsunder or whatever that was called.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Jirix claims to have. There was some reason why Rich decided not to show us the event in stickspace, like maybe a) the Dark One is tiny because he lacks the soul energy possessed by Thor b) the Dark One’s location would have given away something so Rich used crayons to be vague c) the Dark One is being operated like a marionette by the Snarl d) the Dark One didn’t say what Jirix claimed he said e) etc.
    I'd like to offer an important possibility for (e):

    In some senses, the Dark One is the final antagonist, since he is both the heart of the solution to the gods' problem and also a metaphorical snarl in his own right, an emergent tangle from their poorly-conceived games of life and death. As he is also a god, it may simply be more dramatic not to have revealed him in all his splendor at this time. We've seen Thor's presentation of him, but that's not really the same thing.

    (Can you tell my favorite characters are Elan and Tarquin?)
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2022-05-16 at 02:44 PM.


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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    He's tied with the real-world (secular) world-record holder for number of times dying.
    That gets into matters of definition. Brain-dead, I'll agree with you. Heart stopped and restarted, stuff like that, there are real-world people with a count well above 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Durkon has recently demonstrated the Wind Walk traveling mode, and I think it also figured in another travel bit (I was going to say the rescue of V from the demi plane of ranch dressing, but for some reason I suspect that was plane shift not Wind Walk)
    It was here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    On the other hand, who knows, maybe in the final battle Vaarsuvius will find some way to abuse Xykon's limitations on spontaneous metamagic to give Roy a better shot at using Spellsunder or whatever that was called.
    The Spellsplinter Maneuver.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This is going to be tough to cash in. You'll either have to wait for the end of the book or 2*X pages, X being the page number at which we leave the Pole.
    I am a patient man.
    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I'll take that bet. The last 1200 pages have made travel time too big a deal for the Order to start teleporting around at the end. They even cut off their only means of retreat. It makes much more sense for any remaining relevant characters to come to them.
    Oh, I don't think they'll be teleporting around all willy nilly. I just think that the conflict may move elsewhere.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    I was of the understanding that sorcerers can't use quickened spells.
    As AstralFire pointed out above, there are a number of ways around that, and when I made my earlier post I mistakenly thought that Xykon had been shown using one of them.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I'll take that bet. The last 1200 pages have made travel time too big a deal for the Order to start teleporting around at the end. They even cut off their only means of retreat. It makes much more sense for any remaining relevant characters to come to them.
    There's also the fact that they're at a gateway to the planet-within-the-planet, and there's no way we don't end up going there at some point.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    There's also the fact that they're at a gateway to the planet-within-the-planet, and there's no way we don't end up going there at some point.
    I have to disagree. While it does seem inevitable that the planet within the gates will be an important factor in resolving the plot, I don't see why physically traveling there would be required.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    There's also the fact that they're at a gateway to the planet-within-the-planet, and there's no way we don't end up going there at some point.
    You're right I did forget about that. I don't think it's 100% certain we'll go there but it does seem more plot relevant than any other place they could go.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ya know what? Five gold says that we leave the north pole before the book is halfway through.
    I'm backing that bet. With the quatloos I borrowed from you...

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Possibly-dumb question: Has the Giant ever indicated they have any meaning, other than what I would guess is "something (often a memory) being recounted, therefore they're putting their own spin on it which may or may not be reliable"?
    Context for the answer also included:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    okay. me and my friend are debating whether SOD is actually a valid part of the story or a biased story told by redcloak. I personally think it's valid but he seems to think that redcloak is telling the story and therefore it's biased (particularly the part about the Paladins slaughtering Goblin women and children without mercy and without falling.)

    what's the playground's opinion on this matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Oooo! Oooo! I know this one!

    The events of Start of Darkness are not a narrative being told by Redcloak, except for the crayon pages (which totally are). You are right, your friend is wrong. Everything you see happened.
    Crayon =narrative being told by someone. It had as much weight behind it as anyone's words do.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Crayon =narrative being told by someone. It had as much weight behind it as anyone's words do.
    Thank you for the clear answer, and the lovely (and accurate) ambiguity in the last sentence. (^_^)b
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    100 gold says they go south when they leave.
    I'll take that bet!
    You'd think they can't go anywhere but South, but you're wrong. They will leave via the Astral plane or the planet in the rifts, which technically isn't south

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Okay this is just perfect.
    Wouldn't it be, though? I'm gonna have to revisit all my theories and suggestions on this in a few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    I don't think this will come up, since said person is not around at the moment.
    The story still has a long way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I mean, it wasn't THAT shortly afterwards I think? Wasn't it like two weeks ago or so?
    Depending on how various parts of the afterlife work (and what we know about the one we've seen in any depth), time perception may not be all that accurate from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    I think you guys take the significance of crayons a bit too far sometimes. Yes, they're mediated by a narrator in a way cutaway panels aren't, and thus they aren't necessarily a faithful representation of what happened, but that doesn't mean that they can't be. Take the story about Durkon's dad, for example - I'd wager it was true, and intended to be taken as truth.

    I bet that the main reason for The Giant to use crayons is not that he wants to have an unreliable narrator to say something misleading, but that crayon drawings are cool and a fun change of pace. The unreliable narrator thing is just a bonus in some cases.
    Crayons really mean that it's a visualization of a story someone is telling. It does not mean that story is automatically not true or is suspicious in some other way. (In short, I agree with you.)

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Possibly-dumb question: Has the Giant ever indicated they have any meaning, other than what I would guess is "something (often a memory) being recounted, therefore they're putting their own spin on it which may or may not be reliable"?
    I think that's pretty much it. Just a sign that we're not witnessing objective events but someone's recollection of them.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    I applaud the Giant for pointing out that writing can be like magic. The creative types on the forum (of which I am not one) surely agree.

    I still think ambushing Xykon now is the wrong approach, because the goal is to get Redcloak to lock the final gate. Ambushing him and Oona now, when Xykon is not around, has a better chance of success, right?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    I'll take that bet!
    You'd think they can't go anywhere but South, but you're wrong. They will leave via the Astral plane or the planet in the rifts, which technically isn't south
    Alright, but if they end up on the surface of a sphere (planet in the rift or Xykon's astral fortress) I'm going to count all but one point on those spheres as south of their current location.
    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    I still think ambushing Xykon now is the wrong approach, because the goal is to get Redcloak to lock the final gate. Ambushing him and Oona now, when Xykon is not around, has a better chance of success, right?
    Maybe, but then they'd have to worry about Xykon ambushing them and negotiate with Redcloak while he still believes Xykon might rescue him.

    And while it's less important than the gate stuff, Xykon is still a problem that needs to be dealt with all by himself.
    The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.

  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    [/SPOILER]

    I don't think this will come up, since said person is not around at the moment.
    I think it wouldn't have been in the bonus strip at all without a plan for the resolution. It WILL come up some time before the end of the story.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    I think it wouldn't have been in the bonus strip at all without a plan for the resolution. It WILL come up some time before the end of the story.
    Seconded. I think it was a teaser as a bonus for those who paid money.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I also expect
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    Belkar will die saving Hinjo's life, as Sangwaan predicted in a flashback in bonus Don't Split the Party strip #665b. Possibly with a tear-jerker line about how he'd better take good care of Mr. Scruffy.
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    Can somebody please remind me of the wording of this prediction? Does Sangwaan predict Belkar will actually die in the process of saving Hinjo's life? Or if it's a flashback, did the prediction happen before Belkar saved Hinjo's life from poison arrow rogue guy up on the battlements?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
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    Can somebody please remind me of the wording of this prediction? Does Sangwaan predict Belkar will actually die in the process of saving Hinjo's life? Or if it's a flashback, did the prediction happen before Belkar saved Hinjo's life from poison arrow rogue guy up on the battlements?
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    "I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

    It's a flashback, to very shortly before Shojo has the Mark of Justice put on Belkar, before handing him back to Roy.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    In order to serve his god, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster. Nothing will make him more likely to listen to Durkon a second time than destroying Xykon - because even if he starts to reform from his phylactery, he now knows Redcloak betrayed him and his phylactery is not safe in his Astral Plane fortress. At a minimum he's going to be less cooperative.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    In order to serve his god, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster. Nothing will make him more likely to listen to Durkon a second time than destroying Xykon - because even if he starts to reform from his phylactery, he now knows Redcloak betrayed him and his phylactery is not safe in his Astral Plane fortress. At a minimum he's going to be less cooperative.
    nathan fillion raises a hand to interject then pauses to think and decides to remain quiet . gif
    (because what was said already covers it admirably)
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    IMHO, Roy's reaction was pretty OOC.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    It's not all that different from this strip here:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1078.html

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    In order to serve his god, Redcloak needs a powerful arcane caster. Nothing will make him more likely to listen to Durkon a second time than destroying Xykon - because even if he starts to reform from his phylactery, he now knows Redcloak betrayed him and his phylactery is not safe in his Astral Plane fortress. At a minimum he's going to be less cooperative.
    That's an understatement. I don't see any way a Xykon / Redcloak partnership could continue after that. Xykon would almost certainly try to kill Redcloak if he let him regenerate, and I think Redcloak knows that.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Satohika View Post
    IMHO, Roy's reaction was pretty OOC.
    I think the consensus is that so many things have gone wrong today that when this happened he just snapped completely.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermophille View Post
    I think the consensus is that so many things have gone wrong today that when this happened he just snapped completely.
    Less "today" and more "the past year or so" I think but otherwise this more or less.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    That's an understatement. I don't see any way a Xykon / Redcloak partnership could continue after that. Xykon would almost certainly try to kill Redcloak if he let him regenerate, and I think Redcloak knows that.
    I find myself wondering if it's already inside an active volcano for safekeeping, but I imagine not (because of story needs).
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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    I find myself wondering if it's already inside an active volcano for safekeeping, but I imagine not (because of story needs).
    Xykon's soul-hidey-place? I thought Redcloack was still using it as his holy symbol, after Xykon dropped the replica in his fortress
    Last edited by Jannoire; 2022-05-18 at 04:00 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    Xykon's soul-hidey-place? I thought Redcloack was still using it as his holy symbol, after Xykon dropped the replica in his fortress
    No, Redcloak is using a regular holy symbol and we don't know exactky where did he hide the philactery.

    My bet is a room with an anti magic field or something.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    No, Redcloak is using a regular holy symbol and we don't know exactky where did he hide the philactery.

    My bet is a room with an anti magic field or something.
    Redcloak's back-up holy symbol was square. When we caught up with him at the North Pole he was back to using a round one. We don't know if it's the phylactery or a third holy symbol.
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