OOTS #1257 - The Discussion Thread

[hungrycrow]

Redcloak was pretty particular about the duplicate he had made being an exact replica, so presumably he was worried that Xykon could tell the difference, and Xykon would also notice if Redcloak was constantly wearing the real one.

[hroþila]

Yeah, I don't think Redcloak would wear the phylactery in plain sight. That'd be stupid. "But Xykon is dumb and unattentive so he wouldn't notice".
Oh, Redcloak. Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.

Either Redcloak got a third, round holy symbol because he doesn't like the diamond shape as much, or it's supposed to be the same backup symbol after the art upgrade, or it's an art error that The Giant never bothered fixing because it could be explained away as above.

[Fyraltari]

I suspect it's another one and it's round because at some point the Order will mistake it for the real deal, which wouldn't have happened with a square one.

[Psyren]

It occurs to me that Xykon might recognize the bird that was carrying his phylactery if Blackwing doesn't hide

[Precure]

It occurs to me that Xykon might recognize the bird that was carrying his phylactery if Blackwing doesn't hide

Not to mention Blackwing might "leak" some information about the Familicide to Serini.

[Mic_128]

Less "today" and more "the past year or so" I think but otherwise this more or less.

It's definitely more towards the 'today.' Look at everything that's gone wrong.

Paladins mysteriously vanished.
Durkon went against his wishes, if not his order.
Element of surprise ruined, huge advantage lost.
Elan once again does something stupid (even if it was outside of his control) and leads them into a trap.
Roy gets drugged.
Roy fails to convince Serini.
Belkar does a better charisma check than him.
Second and potentially last attempt at an ambush ruined.

It's been a really ****ty hour or so for the poor guy. :(

[Psyren]

Not to mention Blackwing might "leak" some information about the Familicide to Serini.

Aside from what I mentioned in your thread on the subject, Serini isn't part of the Telepathic Bond and so has no way of overhearing Blackwing.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's definitely more towards the 'today.' Look at everything that's gone wrong.

Paladins mysteriously vanished.
Durkon went against his wishes, if not his order.
Element of surprise ruined, huge advantage lost.
Elan once again does something stupid (even if it was outside of his control) and leads them into a trap.
Roy gets drugged.
Roy fails to convince Serini.
Belkar does a better charisma check than him.
Second and potentially last attempt at an ambush ruined.

It's been a really ****ty hour or so for the poor guy. :(

Good summary. If you go from strip 1198 - 1203, and the attempt to formulate a plan, we see that planning is a good thing to do but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy. (The battle with Durkula in the old dining hall was an even better illustration of that from both sides).

[Quizatzhaderac]

Good summary. If you go from strip 1198 - 1203, and the attempt to formulate a plan, we see that planning is a good thing to do but plans rarely survive contact with the enemy. (The battle with Durkula in the old dining hall was an even better illustration of that from both sides).

Roy's actual enemy isn't really the problem with keeping Roy's plans on Track; Xykon and Redcloak have been behaving rather predictably.

The enemies of Roy's plans have been his insubordinate lawful ally and an unknown tritagonist.

We haven't even started in on things going off-plan because of Team evil yet.

[KorvinStarmast]

We haven't even started in on things going off-plan because of Team evil yet.

Nor have we even gotten a whiff of how they'll go off plan when IFCC places their chips on the table.

[Windscion]

Okay, I skipped page 3-5 of the thread, but seriously is no one pointing out that this is still an excellent opportunity to ambush Redcloak? They probably have time for it, since the bugbear and warg are playing detective with Redcloak. Also, MitD isn't around, altho O'Chul's presence probably makes that irrelevant.

[brian 333]

Okay, I skipped page 3-5 of the thread, but seriously is no one pointing out that this is still an excellent opportunity to ambush Redcloak? They probably have time for it, since the bugbear and warg are playing detective with Redcloak. Also, MitD isn't around, altho O'Chul's presence probably makes that irrelevant.

To what point? They want RC alive, and an ambush is likely to not achieve that goal.

Meanwhile, (the real target) Xykon is outside. He can't be reached via the swap-over, but he will be able to hear everything going on in the tunnel and ambush the ambushers.

It's not as if an open door is all that great an obstacle between RC and X, and I have yet to think up any scenario where the Order can defeat RC in one-round, even with surprise on their side.

[AstralFire]

To what point? They want RC alive, and an ambush is likely to not achieve that goal.

Meanwhile, (the real target) Xykon is outside. He can't be reached via the swap-over, but he will be able to hear everything going on in the tunnel and ambush the ambushers.

It's not as if an open door is all that great an obstacle between RC and X, and I have yet to think up any scenario where the Order can defeat RC in one-round, even with surprise on their side.

Single target blast spells (which have a chance to crit) along with charging power attacks and sneak attacks?

It would both never happen within the story and would require some luck to go their way rather than improbably against their way for once, to say nothing of my agreement that killing Redcloak would be an unwise tactic.

But in theory, the order is strong enough to one round here. Surprise round and action economy (six high levels, 1 epic, at least 1 high CR monster, 3 mid levels) beats level advantage and casters not using scry and die. Really, overall, it feels like the Order should have better than even odds in any encounter where they get a surprise round against Xykon -- think how well they handled being at extreme disadvantage against half of Tarquin's fully rested epic party and his army -- and a big part of the narrative pushing back the encounter is that Xykon needs to get a tactical advantage of some kind in addition to his power.

The story deserves a climactic fight where the Order isn't whiffing things they should make left and right just to build suspense, and that's what we'd be getting if the Order was fighting on Roy's terms at any point right now.

[danielxcutter]

The story deserves a climactic fight where the Order isn't whiffing things they should make left and right just to build suspense, and that's what we'd be getting if the Order was fighting on Roy's terms at any point right now.

Frankly I'm quite sick of that - there have been so many diabolus ex machinas that if this was an actual game, all the players would have walked before DStP was over, and one of them might have punched half the DM's teeth out.

[Fyraltari]

Frankly I'm quite sick of that - there have been so many diabolus ex machinas that if this was an actual game, all the players would have walked before DStP was over, and one of them might have punched half the DM's teeth out.

It's a good thing this is a story told to readers and not a game improvised with players, then.

[danielxcutter]

It's a good thing this is a story told to readers and not a game improvised with players, then.

Oh it is, yes, but it's hard to deny that it'd suck to play with such a "DM".

[Vikenlugaid]

Oh it is, yes, but it's hard to deny that it'd suck to play with such a "DM".

Well speak for yourself, there are a lot of players who loves "hardcore mode".

[danielxcutter]

There's a difference between "hardcore" and "asspulls solely to screw with the players".

[Fyraltari]

There's a difference between "hardcore" and "asspulls solely to screw with the players".

You would also not like to play with the "GM" of Indiana Jones or James Bond.

In a story the hero has to overcome steep odds. In games, to insure the players can continue playing, the odds vastly favour them.

Every story with danger is going to be "unfair" to its protagonists by D&D standards.

[pendell]

To what point? They want RC alive, and an ambush is likely to not achieve that goal.

Meanwhile, (the real target) Xykon is outside. He can't be reached via the swap-over, but he will be able to hear everything going on in the tunnel and ambush the ambushers.

It's not as if an open door is all that great an obstacle between RC and X, and I have yet to think up any scenario where the Order can defeat RC in one-round, even with surprise on their side.

As I recall, any lethal physical damage can be converted to non-lethal damage which can incapacitate -- but not kill -- the target. Capturing and neutralizing Redcloak, if possible, would go a long way towards defeating Xykon. The two of them are a much more effective team together than either is separately. The two times we've seen the two fight seriously -- against the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard and against powered-up Vaarsuvius -- it was Redcloak's suggestions which enabled Xykon to most effectively use his spell list. Forcing Xykon to rely solely on his own resources makes him much more beatable.

We saw this in start of darkness; together they are a world-ending threat. Separately , Redcloak doesn't have the arcane power needed for the plan and Xykon is , well, a rogue caster who kills paladins for fun but is not a real threat to the world around him.

So, yes, if possible I would capture Redcloak as the first step towards neutralizing Xykon. Not only will it weaken Xykon who can neither rely on Redcloak's tactical skill nor his negative energy spells which can heal Xykon, defeating Xykon might make Redcloak more amenable to contributing that ninth level spell slot we need from him to repair the gates.


As far as the point of "odds" raised by brian333 and Fyraltari -- maybe I'm a refuge from the Gygax era but to my mind the GM shouldn't be in the business of stacking the deck in favor of the players. The GM's job is to present the players with a hard but fair and reasonable challenge. If there is any odds-stacking, it should be done by the players who use intelligence gathering and scouting to learn about the opposition, then find ways to set up encounters which give them the most favorable odds. It's not the GMs job to stack the odds in their favor; it's their job to stack the deck by making the most of their opportunities and utilizing the principle of local superiority to allow them to pick battles with the highest probability of favorable outcomes.

Heck, it's been a long while but that's how I ascended every character class in Nethack -- Roguelikes such as ADOM, Slash'em, and Nethack absolutely favor that style of play. A player that doesn't work every advantage available to them absent necessary handicaps required by a challenge run is going to be going through a lot of characters ; they die very quickly in the various dungeons if not played with great skill, and even the best players can still be killed by a bad number from the RNG.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[brian 333]

All true, but:
Subdual damage eliminates any possibility of using spells to add damage. You can't subdue with a fireball, flame weapon, or even Magic Weapon spell.

Xykon is only one round away, so with the above handicap the Order has 1 surprise round and 1 combat round to take out Oona, Greyview, and Redcloak, and be gone before Xykon looks in the door.

[Quizatzhaderac]

All true, but:
Subdual damage eliminates any possibility of using spells to add damage. You can't subdue with a fireball, flame weapon, or even Magic Weapon spell.

Not quite. A combination of lethal and non lethal damage can subdue a target. A unit becomes staggered/unconscious when it's non-lethal damage is equals/exceeds to it's current hit points. Lethal damage lowers current hit points, so doing 51% of max hp lethal damage and 50% nonlethal will knock a target unconscious.

[Vikenlugaid]

There's a difference between "hardcore" and "asspulls solely to screw with the players".

But every character in the Order survived those events, so that was clearly a "hardcore but satisfaying game".
I would absolutely love to play that campaign, the feeling at the end...

[pendell]

Not quite. A combination of lethal and non lethal damage can subdue a target. A unit becomes staggered/unconscious when it's non-lethal damage is equals/exceeds to it's current hit points. Lethal damage lowers current hit points, so doing 51% of max hp lethal damage and 50% nonlethal will knock a target unconscious.

So if Vaarsuvius fires off a maximized* fireball within an enclosed space might that be enough to kill Oona and Greyview while knocking Redcloak's HP to a threshold small enough Roy can push him over the edge with a few quick whacks for subdual damage?



* I don't remember if V has this metamagic feat but it makes sense to use it here if available.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Eh, even if none of them make the save that's only like 60 damage. Empowered Chain Lightning might be better.

[faustin]

As I recall, any lethal physical damage can be converted to non-lethal damage which can incapacitate -- but not kill -- the target. Capturing and neutralizing Redcloak, if possible, would go a long way towards defeating Xykon. The two of them are a much more effective team together than either is separately. The two times we've seen the two fight seriously -- against the ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard and against powered-up Vaarsuvius -- it was Redcloak's suggestions which enabled Xykon to most effectively use his spell list. Forcing Xykon to rely solely on his own resources makes him much more beatable.

We saw this in start of darkness; together they are a world-ending threat. Separately , Redcloak doesn't have the arcane power needed for the plan and Xykon is , well, a rogue caster who kills paladins for fun but is not a real threat to the world around him.

So, yes, if possible I would capture Redcloak as the first step towards neutralizing Xykon. Not only will it weaken Xykon who can neither rely on Redcloak's tactical skill nor his negative energy spells which can heal Xykon, defeating Xykon might make Redcloak more amenable to contributing that ninth level spell slot we need from him to repair the gates.


As far as the point of "odds" raised by brian333 and Fyraltari -- maybe I'm a refuge from the Gygax era but to my mind the GM shouldn't be in the business of stacking the deck in favor of the players. The GM's job is to present the players with a hard but fair and reasonable challenge. If there is any odds-stacking, it should be done by the players who use intelligence gathering and scouting to learn about the opposition, then find ways to set up encounters which give them the most favorable odds. It's not the GMs job to stack the odds in their favor; it's their job to stack the deck by making the most of their opportunities and utilizing the principle of local superiority to allow them to pick battles with the highest probability of favorable outcomes.

Heck, it's been a long while but that's how I ascended every character class in Nethack -- Roguelikes such as ADOM, Slash'em, and Nethack absolutely favor that style of play. A player that doesn't work every advantage available to them absent necessary handicaps required by a challenge run is going to be going through a lot of characters ; they die very quickly in the various dungeons if not played with great skill, and even the best players can still be killed by a bad number from the RNG.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Again, and most importantly, Redcloak is the only individual who knows the ritual. The plan to control the Snarl requires him as active participant, period.

The question is if Xykon would be spiteful enough to destroy the final Gate and unleash the Snarl just to spite the Order.

[pendell]

Again, and most importantly, Redcloak is the only individual who knows the ritual. The plan to control the Snarl requires him as active participant, period.

The question is if Xykon would be spiteful enough to destroy the final Gate and unleash the Snarl just to spite the Order.

The reason Redcloak knows the ritual is because he wears the Scarlet Mantle, which imparted it to him. Any goblin cleric who wears the cloak would also gain access to that knowledge.

The thing Redcloak has that other goblin clerics don't is ninth level spell slots. So? Isn't it convenient that we have this whopping great dungeon full of high-level monsters so insanely strong even *Xykon* gets XP from fighting them?

You'd have to kill my friend Sunny's friends, and I won't let you. That's mean.

Right. So subdual damage for the win again. Who says you have to kill monsters to gain XP from fighting them? I think the criteria is "defeat" them. Stretch the rules far enough, you can gain XP from Baggins riddle game. He "defeated" Gollum, after all.

I have a better plan! It's foolproof.

*Sigh* It had better be, Elan. What is this plan? IF anyone would know about foolproof plans, it's you.

Whee! Compliments.

Me [under breath] It wasn't a compliment ...

So the first thing we do is find a goblin cleric.

Yes...

Then we make him a Personal Rival of Xykon! Our world runs on game rules! The cleric instantly gains the same levels as Xykon has, and also ninth-level spell slots! Easy-peasy!

...

Then not only do we have that oh-so-necessary spell slot, we have a brand new friend to beat up mean-meaneyhead Xykon with! An epic-level cleric friend! Our third on the team!

[ponders]

That is a crazy idea but it's not utterly implausible. First of all, there are any number of goblins (as we saw in Start of Darkness) who have reason to hate Xykon. He has a habit of getting his minions killed off for his own amusement. It might be quite difficult to find a goblin who doesn't have a personal reason to wish Xykon destroyed.

I would nominate ... if it came to it, for it is a crazy plan ... the former supreme leader .

Who seems to have survived by dint of cunning Redcloak's accession.

And whom we know from GDGU to be a cleric. I don't think that's enough detail about his appearance to warrant a spoiler box.

What's more, he's lived a bit. Redcloak was a teenager when he put on the Scarlet Mantle and it made a deep imprint on his mind. Possibly with someone older they could retain their original outlook more effectively, having spent decades developing and learning it the hard way, that they would not be instantly brainwashed by the Dark One. Possibly even able to imprint in reverse to some extent.

So yeah, Elan. Well done. We'll put that one in our back pocket as a last-last-last ditch plan.

[to self] It's an absolutely crazy plan but that's a point in its favor in OOTS world. Although Rich no doubt has something else in mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Right. So subdual damage for the win again. Who says you have to kill monsters to gain XP from fighting them? I think the criteria is "defeat" them. Stretch the rules far enough, you can gain XP from Baggins riddle game. He "defeated" Gollum, after all.

A.) Subdual damage is harder to get as it imposes negatives on attack, IIRC.
2.) the criteria is to overcome challenges. At least, the way I've always played. That challenge may be defeating a monster or role playing a diplomatic function or simply staying alive against an onslaught. No defeat required. No "rules stretching" required.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So if Vaarsuvius fires off a maximized* fireball within an enclosed space might that be enough to kill Oona and Greyview while knocking Redcloak's HP to a threshold small enough Roy can push him over the edge with a few quick whacks for subdual damage?

I don't know if ze would have prepared many fireballs (or chain lightnings) as they wouldn't be effective against Xykon.

My guess at the tactic would be having Roy close and prepare to spellsplinter and then Haley use the flank to sap.

[Duncun]

A.) Subdual damage is harder to get as it imposes negatives on attack, IIRC.

You are correct, there is a -4 penalty to hit if you are using a weapon that deals lethal damage.