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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    AnonJr's Avatar

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    Default Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    In our currently stalled campaign (GM work/time issues), I've been playing a front-line combatant with some supplemental spells (Warforged Battle Sorcer 1 / Duskblade 5 / Abj. Champ 4 advancing BS casting). The extra casting has been a great supplement in combat, and even helped resolve some out of combat issues. Dumping a lot of points in the various Knowledge skills for Knowledge Devotion has also allowed me to do more than stand around menacingly when we're not in actual combat.

    From this and some random threads an idea formed in the back of my mind that just won't go away, so maybe if I build it and write it down ready to go I'll stop idly pondering and be able to focus on other things...

    I was wondering if a similar character could be built from the divine side - Something / Mystic Ranger w/ACFs / PRC?

    Since I'd played the ever-popular Horizon Tripper a couple of times, I started thinking Wolf Totem Barbarian 1 or 2 / Mystic Ranger ? / PRC ? - but, the only reason for Barbarian in general would be the boost from Rage and Improved Trip if I went Wolf Totem.

    The more I think about it, that may not be worth giving up the little extra casting Mystic Ranger brings in... though I'm also not very familiar with the Ranger spell list at all, so maybe that's not loss. I'm also keen to try out the ACF that grants Wild Shape, even if it isn't the full Druid version.

    Parameters for this thought exercise:
    • Assume a 33 Point Buy
    • Must keep full BAB (or as close to it as possible)
    • Mostly combat oriented, casting is mostly support
    • Need at least one or two things to help with outside combat...
    • Must be playable early game (we usually start between level 3 and 5)
    • Would like options with the Wild Shape ACF, and ways to optimize that
    • Our table does mid-level optimization, nothing too crazy
    • I almost always play Warforged, something that assumes that is preferred
    • Eberron setting, all books, Dragon Mag maybe - subject to approval, Homebrew maybe - subject to approval


    I really like the idea of a gruff "man of the woods" tracker type. That's more the roll-play... and for some reason I'm thinking this warforged will smoke cheap cigars because why not?

    Appreciate the help. :)

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonJr View Post
    In our currently stalled campaign (GM work/time issues), I've been playing a front-line combatant with some supplemental spells (Warforged Battle Sorcer 1 / Duskblade 5 / Abj. Champ 4 advancing BS casting). The extra casting has been a great supplement in combat, and even helped resolve some out of combat issues. Dumping a lot of points in the various Knowledge skills for Knowledge Devotion has also allowed me to do more than stand around menacingly when we're not in actual combat.

    From this and some random threads an idea formed in the back of my mind that just won't go away, so maybe if I build it and write it down ready to go I'll stop idly pondering and be able to focus on other things...

    I was wondering if a similar character could be built from the divine side - Something / Mystic Ranger w/ACFs / PRC?

    Since I'd played the ever-popular Horizon Tripper a couple of times, I started thinking Wolf Totem Barbarian 1 or 2 / Mystic Ranger ? / PRC ? - but, the only reason for Barbarian in general would be the boost from Rage and Improved Trip if I went Wolf Totem.

    The more I think about it, that may not be worth giving up the little extra casting Mystic Ranger brings in... though I'm also not very familiar with the Ranger spell list at all, so maybe that's not loss. I'm also keen to try out the ACF that grants Wild Shape, even if it isn't the full Druid version.

    Parameters for this thought exercise:
    • Assume a 33 Point Buy
    • Must keep full BAB (or as close to it as possible)
    • Mostly combat oriented, casting is mostly support
    • Need at least one or two things to help with outside combat...
    • Must be playable early game (we usually start between level 3 and 5)
    • Would like options with the Wild Shape ACF, and ways to optimize that
    • Our table does mid-level optimization, nothing too crazy
    • I almost always play Warforged, something that assumes that is preferred
    • Eberron setting, all books, Dragon Mag maybe - subject to approval, Homebrew maybe - subject to approval


    I really like the idea of a gruff "man of the woods" tracker type. That's more the roll-play... and for some reason I'm thinking this warforged will smoke cheap cigars because why not?

    Appreciate the help. :)
    Mystic Ranger with shapeshifer feats is quite good, else the Mystic ranger really should go archery, as they get Bane Bow super early.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxius View Post
    Mystic Ranger with shapeshifer feats is quite good, else the Mystic ranger really should go archery, as they get Bane Bow super early.
    So just straight Mystic Ranger w/Wildshape ACF? Kinda surprised there's no "must have" PrC attached to that.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Can a warforged smoke cigars or would they just hang there in the mouth and gradually burn out?

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Can a warforged smoke cigars or would they just hang there in the mouth and gradually burn out?
    They can benefit from potions, hero's feast, incense, etc. - can't think of why they couldn't. Reminds me, I need to look and see if there's any herbs that could be put in a cigar to give temp benefits...

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Mystic Ranger is pretty much tier 2 up until level 10 and they have a lot of good spells on their list. But they get no melee weapon proficiency. Limited to small/medium animals only and doesn't come on till level 5. Still useful for scouting and some utility uses. Consider going with an Elf to get a melee weapon proficiency. Go mystic ranger and whatever prcs you can find that advance your casting as much as possible and possibly improve your wildshape or at least stack with it.

    I do have a ? though,. If you can use Mystic Ranger can you also use Totem Druid?
    Currently Playing: Aire Romaris Chaotic Good Male Half Celestial Gray Elf Duskblade 13 / Swiftblade 7 /// Elven Generallist Wizard 20

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    I do have a ? though,. If you can use Mystic Ranger can you also use Totem Druid?
    Potentially (assuming it's Dragon content I'm not familiar with?). Core books, and WotC books are always a go. 3.0, Dragon, etc. is on a case-by-case basis.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Ordained Champion 3 is a decent prestige class for a divine gish. Access to Magic Weapon is somewhat tricky---you may need to just take a level of Cleric. Cleric 1 is an excellent dip for a melee specialist anyways, so that seems fine.

    The challenging part of Mystic Ranger is figuring out what to do after level 10. One approach is something like:

    Bard 1/Mystic Ranger 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

    ... which provides BAB+18 (or +19 if using fractional). The prestige requirements here are harsh:
    1. Skills: Decipher Script 7, Diplomacy 7, Gather Information 7, Knowledge (nature) 7, Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13, Perform (string instruments) 13, Profession (astrologer) 6, Sleight of Hand 7, Speak Language (druidic) 1, Spellcraft 6. Of these, Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Profession, and Spellcraft are class skills for the Mystic Ranger leaving potentially 34 cross-class skill points (ouch). So, a Human with the Able Learner feat would need 87 skill points and could manage with an Int of 10. For a warforged, this is more challenging, but I believe you can manage with an Int of 16.
    2. Evasion is provided by Mystic Ranger 9.
    3. Arcane casting of level 3 spells is provided by the Sword of the Arcane Order feat.
    4. Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge are provided by Bard.
    5. Figuring out someone to teach you a secret language (druidic) is a good role-playing challenge.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Ordained Champion 3 is a decent prestige class for a divine gish. Access to Magic Weapon is somewhat tricky---you may need to just take a level of Cleric. Cleric 1 is an excellent dip for a melee specialist anyways, so that seems fine.

    The challenging part of Mystic Ranger is figuring out what to do after level 10. One approach is something like:

    Bard 1/Mystic Ranger 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

    ... which provides BAB+18 (or +19 if using fractional). The prestige requirements here are harsh:
    1. Skills: Decipher Script 7, Diplomacy 7, Gather Information 7, Knowledge (nature) 7, Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13, Perform (string instruments) 13, Profession (astrologer) 6, Sleight of Hand 7, Speak Language (druidic) 1, Spellcraft 6. Of these, Knowledge(Nature), Listen, Profession, and Spellcraft are class skills for the Mystic Ranger leaving potentially 34 cross-class skill points (ouch). So, a Human with the Able Learner feat would need 87 skill points and could manage with an Int of 10. For a warforged, this is more challenging, but I believe you can manage with an Int of 16.
    2. Evasion is provided by Mystic Ranger 9.
    3. Arcane casting of level 3 spells is provided by the Sword of the Arcane Order feat.
    4. Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge are provided by Bard.
    5. Figuring out someone to teach you a secret language (druidic) is a good role-playing challenge.
    Sword of the Arcane Order is going to be a fishy one as the game is stated to be set in eberron and that feat is a forgotten realms specific one as written (need to worship Mystra).

    For mid optimisation, a Mystic Ranger 20 is fine, it goes online very quickly, and hits it's high by level 10. If you get Sword of the Arcane Order, then you get wizard spells, but you don't really need them for reasonable optimisation. Wildshape is standard, but archery is still really stong.

    If you're looking for further shenagigans I'd look at a scout dip with swift hunter, you drop a BAB point but get the skirmish bonus for additional damage. Works best if you can get a 10ft step with some shenanigans like sparring dummy of the master. Plenty of damage, lots of spells, skills, etc.

    Decent multi-tool for a party.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonJr View Post
    Potentially (assuming it's Dragon content I'm not familiar with?). Core books, and WotC books are always a go. 3.0, Dragon, etc. is on a case-by-case basis.
    It's in Dragmag #335 essentially it just a druid, however, you get wild shape at level one but only into your totem animal (can you say bear? LOL) and your animal companion can only be your totem animal (can you say 2 bears?) If you aren't planning on going to high levels it can be great fun!
    Currently Playing: Aire Romaris Chaotic Good Male Half Celestial Gray Elf Duskblade 13 / Swiftblade 7 /// Elven Generallist Wizard 20

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    It's hard to beat CoDzilla.

    I.e. Cleric 20 or Druid 20.
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    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.


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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    It's hard to beat CoDzilla.

    I.e. Cleric 20 or Druid 20.
    I've done the full Cleric route twice, and as my brother-in-law half-jokingly describes it, I tend to play those as Divine Wizards who can also swing a mace.

    I've tried the Druid route once, and will likely try it again - just not on this guy. I'll probably make druid the class I finally give Shifters a go with. (I mostly play Warforged with the occasional Dwarf. To the point a friend bought me a shirt with "Warforged" emblazoned across the chest.)

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by lylsyly View Post
    It's in Dragmag #335 essentially it just a druid, however, you get wild shape at level one but only into your totem animal (can you say bear? LOL) and your animal companion can only be your totem animal (can you say 2 bears?) If you aren't planning on going to high levels it can be great fun!
    Totem Druid definitely looks like something that would be approved. I don't know if I'd rather the bear or a dire wolf...

    Wouldn't do it with an elf though - this is definitely an Ironwood Body Warforged. I was considering a dip in Barbarian or Fighter for the missing martial weapons proficiencies. Barbarian feels more in-character, but Fighter is common enough for the Warforged and a bonus feat is always nice.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxius View Post
    Sword of the Arcane Order is going to be a fishy one as the game is stated to be set in eberron and that feat is a forgotten realms specific one as written (need to worship Mystra).

    For mid optimisation, a Mystic Ranger 20 is fine, it goes online very quickly, and hits it's high by level 10. If you get Sword of the Arcane Order, then you get wizard spells, but you don't really need them for reasonable optimisation. Wildshape is standard, but archery is still really stong.

    If you're looking for further shenagigans I'd look at a scout dip with swift hunter, you drop a BAB point but get the skirmish bonus for additional damage. Works best if you can get a 10ft step with some shenanigans like sparring dummy of the master. Plenty of damage, lots of spells, skills, etc.

    Decent multi-tool for a party.
    Even though we're firmly set in Eberron, we've re-fluffed feats from other settings if it can be convincingly re-fluffed. I'd have to see if there's a good enough parallel deity to Mystra and if the rest of the feat still makes sense.

    All things being equal, a little Scout makes more sense - especially since we're really only going for some mid-level optimization. Too bad there isn't a Divine version of Arcane Strike... though even if there was I don't know that even the Mystic Ranger would get enough spells per day to make it worth while.

    Alternately, is there a way to get a level or two of Monk with the Ascetic Hunter feat to crank the damage of even the small/medium creatures a Wildshape Mystic Ranger could use?
    Last edited by AnonJr; 2022-05-16 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxius View Post
    Sword of the Arcane Order is going to be a fishy one as the game is stated to be set in eberron and that feat is a forgotten realms specific one as written (need to worship Mystra).

    For mid optimisation, a Mystic Ranger 20 is fine, it goes online very quickly, and hits it's high by level 10. If you get Sword of the Arcane Order, then you get wizard spells, but you don't really need them for reasonable optimisation. Wildshape is standard, but archery is still really stong.
    I've been thinking about the options for Sword of the Arcane Order in an Eberron setting, and I think it could be re-fluffed as devotion to Aureon instead of Mystra - other than slight alignment issues they are arguably close enough in description.

    I don't exactly relish finding and scribing a Spell book, but it occurred to me - if this is technically Wizard casting, does that mean I can use wands etc. with Wizard spells without having to make a UMD check? One of the reasons I've tended to shy away from divine casters is there's no Divine equivalent to the Repair Damage spell line. But ... if SotAO would allow use of wands and whatnot with repair spells that could fix that.

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    I think there’s a warforged acf or domain that can solve that concern

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
    I think there’s a warforged acf or domain that can solve that concern
    the Warforged domain from Faiths of Eberron could, but would that be worth a dip in Cleric? Or is there a feat/ACF that could give the Mystic Ranger access to a domain?

    There's two Racial Substitution Levels that could go that way - one for Artificer (which would also get UMD on the list, and a couple 1st level infusions), and one for Paladin that would allow you to use Lay on Hands to repair damage or heal.

    If I got anything that added Arcane casting, I could definitely use Eternal Wands - those don't care about the spell list, just that you're an arcane caster.

    Not sure if there's anything else though.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Contemplative dip to pick up a domain on a paladin of the arcane order chassis might work

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Whatever you do try to maintain access to greater mighty wallop. It is HILLARIOUS to cast on a battlefist and then take the beast strike feat. Hitting for 16d6 base damage before modifiers with your unarmed strike is good fun.

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Whatever you do try to maintain access to greater mighty wallop. It is HILLARIOUS to cast on a battlefist and then take the beast strike feat. Hitting for 16d6 base damage before modifiers with your unarmed strike is good fun.
    I've already used a scroll of Mighty Wallop on my last character - a Warforged Duskblade wielding a Large Warhammer... couple that with channeling Shocking Grasp is great for softening up targets.

    I play a lot of Arcane types. I guess another way of phrasing this build exercise (which I may try to get as a cohort if our Eye of the Litch Queen campaign picks back up) is something along the lines of a Divine Duskblade - but a woodsman/tracker/scout type (channeling not necessary).

    I've been thinking about one level of Barbarian for Rage and Martial Weapons, or one level of Fighter for Martial Weapons and a bonus feat, or one level of Monk for Unarmed Strike shenanigans - maybe a second level for the bonus feat or a good ACF (especially if I take Ascetic Hunter for the bonus). I suspect the Ironwood Body means no Wis to AC sadly...

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    There are a several ways to pick up martial weapons that don't lose a level of spellcasting. The easy choice is a level of Ruathar. An alternative is Stalker of Kharesh. SoK has a high feat tax, but you get Track already and Alertness can come from an item (Ioun stone), so the feat tax may be just one. SoK 2 gives favored enemy:evil, which is particularly useful if you take the Nemesis feat or Swift Hunter (which requires 3 levels of Scout).

  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    There are a several ways to pick up martial weapons that don't lose a level of spellcasting. The easy choice is a level of Ruathar. An alternative is Stalker of Kharesh. SoK has a high feat tax, but you get Track already and Alertness can come from an item (Ioun stone), so the feat tax may be just one. SoK 2 gives favored enemy:evil, which is particularly useful if you take the Nemesis feat or Swift Hunter (which requires 3 levels of Scout).
    Ruathar looks nice, so does the Stalker. I was about to say something about Alertness from the Animal Companion, but that seems to be only Arcane familiars...

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by AnonJr View Post
    Ruathar looks nice, so does the Stalker. I was about to say something about Alertness from the Animal Companion, but that seems to be only Arcane familiars...
    You can potentially pick up a familiar by using the Otyugh Hole to pick up Iron Will and then taking Mystic Wanderer 2. However, you need to get Diplomacy as a class skill, so something like Mystic Ranger 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 2/Stalker of Kharash 2 could work, although the entry is a bit delayed.

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You can potentially pick up a familiar by using the Otyugh Hole to pick up Iron Will and then taking Mystic Wanderer 2. However, you need to get Diplomacy as a class skill, so something like Mystic Ranger 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 2/Stalker of Kharash 2 could work, although the entry is a bit delayed.
    Yeah ... now we're drifting to some thing a little more something? than I was looking to make. I only brought up the Martial Weapons because it was a recommendation from earlier, and likewise for the Familiar as a way to get Alertness without burning a feat.

    I'd planned on getting a couple build options up today, but ... life.

    There's two questions that I'm not sure of that would help:

    1) If I did the Monk 1 / Wildeshape Mystic Ranger X / PrC X with the Ascetic Hunter feat - in wild shape, would a wolf (or whatever) use it's normal claw damage or the improved damage from the monk's table? (I think I already know the answer, but ... hope springs eternal.)

    1b) Thought of this as I was typing the above - while the monk's damage is generally ... meh; Since Warforged can be enchanted, and their hands could be given the same enchantments/enhancements as gauntlets, would that make an "unarmed" build more viable? I'm ok with using WS mainly for utility instead of combat. Could that be one of the rare cases where VoP would actually make sense? (probably not.)

    2) Is it really worth the effort for a dip of one type or another to get all Martial Weapons, or would it be enough to find something that grants a single weapon? I see some nice options that allow for a "signature weapon" (which for flavor purposes I wouldn't mind making the best option for an axe of some sort) that tends to be either a single martial weapon or a single martial/exotic weapon.

    I'm still poking around the various PrCs, and tempted to do Nature's Warrior and/or Master of Many Forms. The former does some boost to casting, while toughening up the Wild Shape options. The latter adds to the Wild Shape options, though I'm not sure it's worth the effort?

    I had something else, but needed to step away while typing ... and I wonder if this is what it's like for the dog when he goes into a room only to immediately turn around and go somewhere else.

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    Default Re: Help finishing build so it will stop rattling around my brain

    Ah, how reasonable would it be for a Warforged Ranger (taking the Wild Cohort feat since Mystic Ranger gives up the usual animal companion...) to have an Iron Defender in place of a wolf? It feels right thematically, we're still talking a 2HD creature. Defender has more HP, Wolf has Trip/Scent, but mostly they're comparable.

    I figure it would be reasonable to make sure HD are only improved by the feat progression and not by going to an Artificer with the Improved Homunculus feat. Still trying to work out the last few kinks.

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