A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In all the jurisdictions I know of, perfectly legal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_child_abduction
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-05-24 at 12:13 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Yes, that article notably discusses how it interacts with custody agreements, which take precedence over standard legal doctrine of "you cannot kidnap your own child". As I said, as depicted (eg no sign of divorce proceedings, custody arrangements, specific guardianship, etc.), it looks legally kosher.

    This might sound messed up, and obviously it can be abused, but there are also very good reasons for it.

    ETA: Don't take legal advice from non-lawyers (eg me), but especially don't take legal advice from Wikipedia.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-05-24 at 12:16 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    I was thinking of the UK example:

    For example, removing a child from the UK for a period of 28 days or more without the other parent's permission (or person with parental responsibility) is a criminal offense.[2]

    It doesn't specifically require divorce proceedings there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post

    ETA: Don't take legal advice from non-lawyers (eg me), but especially don't take legal advice from Wikipedia.
    True.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-05-24 at 12:19 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I disagree. I wouldn't call it "effectively stealing the child" in this context.

    "Single mother by choice" is a real thing, widespread. Calling them all "kidnappers" or "effectively stealing children" IMO demonises them unfairly.
    There are many ways for someone to ethically become pregnant and raise a child as a single parent. I can hardly judge all those people without knowing the specific details.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Durkon knew she might be pregnant as they discussed protection magic and never bothered to use a sending to her and check in with her (that we know) - so he wasn't that interested until he was literally faced with the child, and she had no reason to think he would be.
    Starting from the end there, she knew 100% without doubt that Durkon would be interested if only out of a sense of philosophical obligation. She ran head first into that aspect of him herself. Also, even if she thinks he may not be interested, or have good reason to think he is an ******* on a personal level, she knows sending herself and she could just as easily say "hey I'm pregnant do you want to be involved, if no great goodbye lose my number."

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Hiring a cleric to curse you with sterility does not sound 'very very easy', there is a low level spell (they say cantrips but I am assuming orisons) to provide contraception but neither of two mid level clerics bother to have it prepared (panel 7).

    If they didn't have the spell on hand then there is no reason to assume that a random npc on the western continent would have it prepared when a theoretical Draketooth engages them for intercourse.
    I had forgotten that panel mentioning it was available in setting as a cantrip. That certainly works easily enough but a 0th level spell would be almost literal childs play to disrupt if one wanted to get pregnant without the others consent. In that case the Bestow Curse option would be more analogous to a long term IUD or Vasectomy I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    According to BOVD, sterility is an appropriate effect that Bestow Curse can grant. And Bestow Curse is a 3rd level spell (so, minimum caster level is 5th).

    The "goods and services" price, for a single 5th level caster to cast a single 3rd level spell, is 150 GP:

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment...ices.htm#spell

    Cheap for an adventurer, but not for an ordinary commoner or expert.
    Depends on if the cleric is charging full price. It isn't unusual for the church to do discount spell casting for various reasons in alignment with a particular deities spheres of influence I can think of several who for various reasons might be willing to do it for material or a nominal fee. That is more setting dependent though and the existence of a cantrip alternative means it would likely be limited to more affluent members of society.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I was thinking of the UK example:

    For example, removing a child from the UK for a period of 28 days or more without the other parent's permission (or person with parental responsibility) is a criminal offense.[2]

    It doesn't specifically require divorce proceedings there.
    Well, I did say in all the jurisdictions I'm familiar with, and being from a group of fifty countries in a trench coat the US, it should not be terribly surprising that I am not well-versed in UK law.

    ETA: Also, looking into it a bit more even in the UK it is not a criminal offense provided they stay in-country and are not violating court orders.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-05-24 at 12:24 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Wouldn't it be kidnapping to do what Orrin did, in many jurisdictions?
    Had Inkyrius disappeared with the children instead of suing for full custody would it be kidnapping or would it merely be a parent taking their children where they wanted them to be.

    My loose understanding is that it is not kidnapping when you have legal custody of the child - in whichever 'likely no longer existing country' Orrin and Penelope where in? who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Which, quite famously, does not require proof.
    But we as both the members of the court and the subjects of the court might be better off seeing if their is any that holds up.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2022-05-24 at 01:01 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post

    My loose understanding is that it is not kidnapping when you have legal custody of the child - in whichever 'likely no longer existing country' Orrin and Penelope where in? who knows.
    https://www.attorneys.com/child-cust...tal-kidnapping

    Parental kidnapping or parental abduction is defined as the concealment, taking, or retention of a child by his parent in violation of the rights of the child's other parent or another family member. Violated rights may include, for example, custody and visitation rights. Sadly, thousands of children are abducted by a parent and removed from the United States annually. Even more children are kidnapped by a parent within the confines of U.S. borders. Parental kidnapping also happens when a child is abducted from a custodial parent abroad and transported into the United States by the non-custodial parent illegally.

    More Than Just a Custody Dispute

    Make no mistake parental kidnapping is illegal. Parental kidnapping is far more than a dispute regarding custody matters between divorcing parents. Such matters are relegated to the civil courts; however, parental kidnapping is a criminal act. In fact, parental kidnapping violates the laws of all U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and the Virgin Islands, plus U.S. federal laws and international laws.
    I think, in the context of OOTS, it's reasonable to say that Orrin has violated Penelope's custody rights and visitation rights.


    By contrast, in the context of Mamma Mia!, I find it less reasonable, to say Donna has violated Bill, Sam, and Harry's custody rights and visitation rights.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-05-24 at 12:41 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    https://www.attorneys.com/child-cust...tal-kidnapping



    I think, in the context of OOTS, it's reasonable to say that Orrin has violated Penelope's custody rights and visitation rights.


    By contrast, in the context of Mamma Mia!, I find it less reasonable, to say Donna has violated Bill, Sam, and Harry's custody rights and visitation rights.
    Pointing out a specific clause here:

    by the non-custodial parent illegally.
    "non custodial parent" is carrying the vast majority of the weight here.

    Penelope doesn't have custody rights* and visitation rights. She has custody. As does Orrin. There is no non-custodial parent.

    *not as understood in this context. Again, not a lawyer, actual lawyers would be able to put it better than me (and potentially say how I'm wrong, the law is complex).
    Last edited by Peelee; 2022-05-24 at 12:46 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I am not particularly interested in talking real world country laws - but the bit that stands out to me particularly is:
    Parental kidnapping also happens when a child is abducted from a custodial parent abroad and transported into the 'nation'* by the non-custodial parent illegally.
    *edited the quote to remove reference to a real world nation

    The implication being that if the child is transported into the jurisdiction legally by a non-custodial parent it is fine, or if the child is transported illegally by a custodial parent it is also fine relating to this - this seems suspect.

    The western continent has a lot of countries come and go - what laws if any Orrin may have broken are unknown and if he did break any the nation he broke them in likely does not exist.

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    "non custodial parent" is carrying the vast majority of the weight here.
    The sentence only included the specific case of someone outside X taking a child into X.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Penelope doesn't have custody rights* and visitation rights. She has custody. As does Orrin.
    As far as I know, all non-separated, non-divorced parents have custody rights by default. That's what "having custody" means. So, when a non-divorced parent disappears with their child, they are violating the other parent's custody rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post

    The western continent has a lot of countries come and go - what laws if any Orrin may have broken are unknown and if he did break any the nation he broke them in likely does not exist.
    Does that matter? Ian for example, "broke the laws" in Tyrinaria, but he's being held by the Empire of Blood even after Tyrinaria's replacement by the Empire of Blood.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-05-24 at 01:02 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Does that matter? Ian for example, "broke the laws" in Tyrinaria, but he's being held by the Empire of Blood even after Tyrinaria's replacement by the Empire of Blood.
    That's the thing about evil dictatorships, what matters has more to do with what the tyrant in charge wants than legal theory.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2022-05-24 at 02:02 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Going back to the original topic - I'd have to say that Serini will be somewhat upset.

    She liked Girard a lot (as expressed by her dairy) and even if she's now willing to call him paranoid, I doubt that corresponds to her being unupset that all his remaining relatives are now dead at V's hands.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Going back to the original topic - I'd have to say that Serini will be somewhat upset.

    She liked Girard a lot (as expressed by her dairy) and even if she's now willing to call him paranoid, I doubt that corresponds to her being unupset that all his remaining relatives are now dead at V's hands.
    Agree, though I predict it won't come up. Familicide was so unfathomably awful that it's hard to talk about in the comic. If Serini found out, she would absolutely be enraged, but V would be going "no really, I deeply regret it and it was a horrible thing to do, I've changed since then" and the whole thing seems a little messy rather than an interesting story beat.

    Especially because Serini already attacked the Order...I think it would feel repetitive to have her turn on them again. Even if it's supposedly justifiable.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2022-05-24 at 03:14 PM.

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Okay, but on what, exactly, does the assumption that the female Draketooth would only conceive through one-night stands rest?
    I think I was the first to bring it up, and it wasn't a thing I was saying definitely happens, just a thing that conceivably could happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Orrin also robbed Penelope, presumably to fund all of the clan's expendive magics and equipment, something that would be considerably harder with a random stranger.
    True, and I did bring that up in my original speculation. Though maybe sometimes the clan just needs a few kids, and this would be a low risk low cost way for them to do that. You can rob people without seducing and marrying them first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Meanwhile having many unprotected sexual encounters with strangers in quick sucession seems like an easy way to catch an STD.
    Not as much of an issue as it would be in real life, I suspect.

    Also I can't link it anywhere but there's a bunch more options to boost fort saves outside of SRD like Steadfast Determination, and ones that are SRD but would be strange to have active during the act like a Cloak of Resistance
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2022-05-24 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I Not as much of an issue as it would be in real life, I suspect.

    Also I can't link it anywhere but there's a bunch more options to boost fort saves outside of SRD like Steadfast Determination, and ones that are SRD but would be strange to have active during the act like a Cloak of Resistance
    So you're saying that, with the magic item crafting feats and decisions, once could instigate sexytime by putting on a robe and wizard hat?
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So you're saying that, with the magic item crafting feats and decisions, once could instigate sexytime by putting on a robe and wizard hat?
    If you're putting on your fortitude boosting gear to prepare for that sort of thing I think your partner may be offended.

    ... Unless you two are into some slightly more kinky things, I suppose.

    That said magic items do open up a lot of other interesting options in the bedroom, even before bringing in third party stuff like the book that shall not be named. Especially when you bring the custom magic item creation rules into play, you could put that fort save on a ring, or put something more fun on a cloak if you want to wear a cloak for some reason. The possibilities are pretty open.

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    If you're putting on your fortitude boosting gear to prepare for that sort of thing I think your partner may be offended.
    Eh. The elders of the internet would approve.
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Eh. The elders of the internet would approve.
    You know, I completely forgot that in... certain rulesets, fortitude saves start kicking in after a certain amount of... activity.

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Eh. The elders of the internet would approve.
    If it's any consolation, I loved the reference. Not really an "elder" myself, though. What's one step younger than that?

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    If it's any consolation, I loved the reference. Not really an "elder" myself, though. What's one step younger than that?
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Navigator of the netscape?
    Fitting, given that my first memory of logging into the internet is via a Netscape window in my elementary school's computer lab.

    The lab had orange shag carpeting on the walls.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Fitting, given that my first memory of logging into the internet is via a Netscape window in my elementary school's computer lab.

    The lab had orange shag carpeting on the walls.
    Oh man, I forgot about carpeted walls! Truly those were the halcyon days of our youth.
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Fitting, given that my first memory of logging into the internet is via a Netscape window in my elementary school's computer lab.

    The lab had orange shag carpeting on the walls.
    Was that to muffle the sound of the screams?

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Was that to muffle the sound of the screams?
    Also dial up sounds!
    Which could have caused the screams, come to think of it.
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Was that to muffle the sound of the screams?
    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Also dial up sounds!
    What are dial-up sounds, if not the digitized screams of the damned?

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Also you are sort of generalizing gender in such a way to ignore that men can in fact get pregnant as well.
    I said female and was referring to their sex, not gender.

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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jody Reese View Post
    I don't play Dungeons & Dragons, so I'm not sure how being half-dragon affects longevity, but given that it's centered on Tolkien, I'm betting halflings live longer than humans.
    They do. Almost 50% longer (35 for a human is equivalent to 50 for a halfling, 53 for a human is equivalent to 75 for a halfling, maximum rollable age for a halfling is 200, for a human, 110.)

    Being a half-dragon extends age according to Races of the Dragon - but there's no strict rules for how much it does.

    But Girard isn't a half-dragon - he's a quarter-dragon. And, since he does not appear to have scales or claws on his hands, he probably doesn't have the Draconic template. This would suggest that, ruleswise, he's a regular human, with the only thing his "dragon heritage" does, being "why he takes sorcerer levels" (Sorcerers often have dragon ancestors).
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-05-26 at 05:04 AM.
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    You know, I completely forgot that in... certain rulesets, fortitude saves start kicking in after a certain amount of... activity.
    Endurance/longevity would be measured by an ability check rather than a saving throw in both 3e and 5e. (Not sure about 4e.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugl

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Had Inkyrius disappeared with the children instead of suing for full custody would it be kidnapping or would it merely be a parent taking their children where they wanted them to be.

    My loose understanding is that it is not kidnapping when you have legal custody of the child - in whichever 'likely no longer existing country' Orrin and Penelope where in? who knows.
    Inkyrius has been raising their children by themself for the entire duration of the comic, and had reason to believe that V was a danger to their children, and KNEW that V had given in to fiendish influence. Also, V left them when given the choice to remain. A very different circumstance from what Orrin did.
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