When Serini realizes V killed his friends whole family line it's going to get ugly

[dancrilis]

And yet I am perfectly fine with that.

Which is perfectly fair - it is possible that I am merely overthinking a situation which the Giant deemed broadly unimportant to the story he was telling (and that he reasonable enough didn't want to spend to much time drawing child corpses).

I may start a seperate topic on the Draketooths recruitment actions if it rattles around in my head for a while longer (or I may get distracted by a squirrel).

[RatElemental]

For male draketooths it would be kidnapping, but the female ones could just have a one night stand with someone and then go home. Though I think we learned at one point that fleecing the other parent was a huge part of the clan's gold income at one point.

No matter how you cut it they were up to some pretty bad stuff.

[Ionathus]

Dancrilis, I appreciate the dedication with which you defend your out-of-left-field theories. I mean that genuinely: I'm not being sarcastic. Debating an off-the-wall prediction you've made has often helped me examine why I believe a certain thing is true, and I'll even discover faults in my assumptions as a result.

However, this argument ("we don't KNOW the Draketooths did large-scale stealth divorces, complete with kidnapping and plundering the victim's family wealth") is definitely grasping at straws. We are shown Penelope's story, and then multiple characters theorize about it, and then that theory is proven more or less true by V's monologue and the corresponding montage of desert strangers getting Familicide'd.

Sure, much like many of your other arguments, there is not TECHNICALLY any concrete evidence to completely rule out your theory. However, much like many of your arguments, there's no in-story reason for the simplest, most apparent solution to not be true.

The main characters theorized that Girard's family propagated itself via kidnapping, and the narrative partially backs that up...and more importantly, doesn't refute it. There is no reason to make any other assumption. What would be gained?

[dancrilis]

There is no reason to make any other assumption. What would be gained?

The entire story is delivered by Tarquin based on what Penelope told him - lets ignore her for a second and focus on Tarquin and what he knew when he told the story.

Given his ring of true seeing he can be presumed to know that Nale is nearby and listening to the conversation, he also seems to be aware that the Order are a single adventuring party (even as they try to keep that quite), and the Order discuss beside him that Nale is after the same thing they are after.
Much of this can be determined from 815 (panels 8, 9 and 10) and 819 (much of the page).

Even without knowing what either group was after he likely could be assumed to be plotting some way to perhaps take it if it was useful to him (and likely planned to speak to Nale about it) - and so painting the Draketooths in a bad light might serve his purposes if it helps him potentially drive a ledge between the groups.

Even if Tarquin was not being devious Penelope might very well have painted herself as more of a victim then she really was.

Essentially we have secondhand information from a source that may have reason to deceive and who themselves got the story from someone who may not have given a fair and balanced account, and we only got one side of the story - and that story only actually indicates that one individual was engaged in poor behaviour, the Order did somewhat extend that to the entire family, but they took a lot on face value and then jumped to assumptions to do so.

If I tell you that I heard a story from Mary that 15 years ago she had a child with Bob until one day he disappeared with the child and her money and she has been searching from them ever since - you are likely to naturally believe me (why would I deceive you on this?) and are likely to think poorly of Bob, and if you think he might be with his family you may think poorly of them also.
But if you find out that I might have reason to deceive you as you and Bob being at odds may suit me ... well it might be worth reconsidering how much weight you put on the story.

[Ionathus]

So what?

Your whole theory about why Tarquin might lie about X and why the Order might assume Y doesn't really change the fact that they make that assumption and the story continues as if Y is a correct assumption.

We saw an entire room of redheads with genetic dragon tattoos and nothing else. If the Draketooths weren't doing the stealth divorcing thing, then where are all the in-laws? That room full of Only Blood Relatives, No Non-Draketooth Parents is really only feasible with this scheme. As Rat Elemental mentioned, the women in the family could just be doing one-night stands for less work...but yeah I do believe the gold income is a significant part of it.

But let's play along: we can do all this work and come up with some wild rationale that fits the facts as presented, even if it ignores most of the implicit assumptions. That still doesn't address the "so what." So what if Tarquin lied and the Draketooths didn't do a bunch of kidnappings? So what if they somehow married and had lots of children and then all the non-Draketooth parents died of other stuff or got a divorce or maybe the Draketooths laid out a big surrogacy/donor program or whatever.

How does that change the story now, eight-ish years after that fact was even partially relevant, when we see the entire Draketooth family storyline and understand how those decisions created dramatic impact? What would the point of your reveal be? How does it make the story better?

[Mike Havran]

Personally, I have no doubt that Penelope's story is 100% true; however, I do believe child taking and robbery in her case was an exception, rather than the norm for the clan. Reasons:
1. The clan wanted to operate in utmost secrecy, and draw minimum attention to themselves.
2. The Draketooth blood is strong and members of the family look very similar to each other (reddish hair of various shades, and especially the mark on their face). Orrin did not bother to glamer up when courting Penelope.
3. Even if the value of life is not especially high on the Western Continent as far as we can see, had the Draketooths perpetrated this kind of modus operandi on a larger-ish scale, the word would have spread around the continent very fast - especially since the victims, most likely wealthy families with considerable coffers, would care to find the villain and various renowned diviners would know there is something fishy going on. Maybe they would even team up to investigate this organized ploy, which is exactly the opposite of what Draketooth wanted to happen.

My headcanon is that Orrin was a black sheep of the family; the rest behaved much more decently and should not be vilified as a group. In dubio, pro reo.

[Precure]

I can't see how can Tarquin showcase Draketooths in bad light by lying in this case. Other than what Orrin done, neither Penelope nor Tarquin said or knew anything about the mass kidnapping, it was the order themselves who reached that conclusion. Not to mention they used "discern lies" and "sense motive" on Tarquin's information.

[Ionathus]

Personally, I have no doubt that Penelope's story is 100% true; however, I do believe child taking and robbery in her case was an exception, rather than the norm for the clan. Reasons:
1. The clan wanted to operate in utmost secrecy, and draw minimum attention to themselves.
2. The Draketooth blood is strong and members of the family look very similar to each other (reddish hair of various shades, and especially the mark on their face). Orrin did not bother to glamer up when courting Penelope.
3. Even if the value of life is not especially high on the Western Continent as far as we can see, had the Draketooths perpetrated this kind of modus operandi on a larger-ish scale, the word would have spread around the continent very fast - especially since the victims, most likely wealthy families with considerable coffers, would care to find the villain and various renowned diviners would know there is something fishy going on. Maybe they would even team up to investigate this organized ploy, which is exactly the opposite of what Draketooth wanted to happen.

My headcanon is that Orrin was a black sheep of the family; the rest behaved much more decently and should not be vilified as a group. In dubio, pro reo.

While I agree that this behavior would draw attention, I think you might be overselling the weight of several things:

• The number of kidnapping/robberies
• the victims' agency
• access to divination magic

The Western Continent is an unstable place: so unstable that it's not worth it to keep maps around for multiple years. I have a hard time believing the Draketooths' 30-odd kidnap/robberies could cause any serious ripples in a continent of millions of people. It seems like Penelope paid diviners for years to attempt finding them and failed...it was only through the use of Z's high-level magic that it worked.

I mean, sure, maybe "redhead who vanished one day" became a rumor in some parts. But with the whole continent to choose from (and with the lack of reliable information that comes from a pre-digital, constantly-at-war civilization), I can't imagine that they actually left that big of a footprint even if they did it (generously, judging by the family tree) 40+ times.

[hroþila]

I would also dispute that their victims were mostly upper-class. The people killed in #843 seem to come from all over the social spectrum.

[Mike Havran]

While I agree that this behavior would draw attention, I think you might be overselling the weight of several things:

• The number of kidnapping/robberies
• the victims' agency
• access to divination magic

The Western Continent is an unstable place: so unstable that it's not worth it to keep maps around for multiple years. I have a hard time believing the Draketooths' 30-odd kidnap/robberies could cause any serious ripples in a continent of millions of people. It seems like Penelope paid diviners for years to attempt finding them and failed...it was only through the use of Z's high-level magic that it worked.

I mean, sure, maybe "redhead who vanished one day" became a rumor in some parts. But with the whole continent to choose from (and with the lack of reliable information that comes from a pre-digital, constantly-at-war civilization), I can't imagine that they actually left that big of a footprint even if they did it (generously, judging by the family tree) 40+ times.

I agree that a reasonable villain would consider the risk small. But a paranoid offspring of Girard? Not so much. Perhaps I'm being overly benevolent towards the clan, but I still consider my interpretation consistent with what little information we have.

[RatElemental]

With how paranoid Girard was, I think he'd weigh 30 to 40 kidnappings by anonymous drifters using aliases to be less of a risk than bringing in someone who was not related by blood. Really all it takes is for one outsider to spill the beans and oops, there's your whole cover blown.

[Precure]

Funny thing is, they can just send their females to have one-nigh stands and it would be easier, less riskier, and less morally hideous.

[hroþila]

Yeah but then the Draketooths themselves would need to take care of that baby on their own at its most annoying and sleep-depriving. Hard pass.

[Peelee]

Yeah but then the Draketooths themselves would need to take care of that baby on their own at its most annoying and sleep-depriving. Hard pass.

Not annoying at all. I miss that phase.

[hroþila]

Not annoying at all. I miss that phase.

Yeah but you say that about your own kid(s) (not those of your whole extended family all in one pyramid), and also as someone who hopefully doesn't go around kidnapping babies. I think you may have a slightly different outlook.

[Peelee]

Yeah but you say that about your own kid(s) (not those of your whole extended family all in one pyramid), and also as someone who hopefully doesn't go around kidnapping babies. I think you may have a slightly different outlook.

I may have this rugged tough-guy exterior but put me around an infant and I turn into a big ol' marshmallow. Any infant.

But yeah, that may just be me.

[hroþila]

Peelee kidnaps babies confirmed

[Peelee]

Peelee kidnaps babies confirmed

Dont tell the feds.

[Fyraltari]

Dont tell the feds.

Is that why Roland St. Jude swore revenge against you a second time?

[Peelee]

Is that why Roland St. Jude swore revenge against you a second time?

Dont tell him either.

[mjasghar]

At the very least the tale Tarquin told was fact because it wasn’t a crayon and we have word of Giant that such flashbacks are actual events. And then there’s the aspect of the non related partners. It’s possible they were in the pyramid but, assuming many of them were in the Familicide montage, they seem to be mostly outside

[Ionathus]

I presume the reason they didn't only have the Draketooth women do one-night stands is that having a baby takes awhile. If they're a small clan of 20-30 (less at the start) then it would make sense to have all child-rearing-age family members doing the work. If you limit your child-having to the women of the family then your defenses will only be half as numerous, therefore half as strong.

[InvisibleBison]

I presume the reason they didn't only have the Draketooth women do one-night stands is that having a baby takes awhile. If they're a small clan of 20-30 (less at the start) then it would make sense to have all child-rearing-age family members doing the work. If you limit your child-having to the women of the family then your defenses will only be half as numerous, therefore half as strong.

This all seems pretty questionable to me. A single person can raise more than one child at a time, especially if there are some older children to help. And from what we've seen, the defenses didn't take a lot of time to maintain. Even if you have a kid to look after, you can spare a few minutes to cast a single spell.

[Ionathus]

That's not the part I'm talking about: I'm talking about the physical pregnancy. If you have 2 women of childbearing age, you can only get 2 kids every 9 months. But if you have 2 men as well and then they steal the baby after it's weaned, you can get 4 kids in the same timeframe.

[Peelee]

That's not the part I'm talking about: I'm talking about the physical pregnancy. If you have 2 women of childbearing age, you can only get 2 kids every 9 months. But if you have 2 men as well and then they steal the baby after it's weaned, you can get 4 kids in the same timeframe.

I'm sorry, this math is confusing me. If you ahve two people then you have can have two babies, but if you have four people then you can have four babies in that same time frame.

That....seems to work out fine regardless of the gender of the people?

ETA: Actually, that seems to be your exact point.

[gellerche]

It's also possible that the Trio of Evil (who gave V the Soul Splice) pops in during the battle with Team Evil and lets it slip that V killed the dragons. It could be that they want Xykon to win and would turn Serini against OOTS to do it.

[dancrilis]

If the Draketooths weren't doing the stealth divorcing thing, then where are all the in-laws?

My theory is not that they are including in-laws but instead that taking children is not the norm, see the following:

... as such it is possible that children are only taken when the non-Draketooth parent is deemed not to be fit for the job of parenting and in other cases that the children (if deemed suitable) are made aware of the family lineage later.

For instance:
If the non-Draketooth parent was planning to sacrifice their first born to a demon for power (as an example) - leave the other parent in the dark, steal the child.
If the non-Draketooth parent is alright and the child is not deemed suitable for the Draketooth mission - leave the other parent in the dark, and leave the child in the dark.
If the non-Draketooth parent is alright and the child is deemed suitable for the Draketooth mission - leave the other parent in the dark, and when the child is old enough to make a firm adult decision let them in on the family mission (and name etc).

How does that change the story now, eight-ish years after that fact was even partially relevant, when we see the entire Draketooth family storyline and understand how those decisions created dramatic impact? What would the point of your reveal be? How does it make the story better?

From an in-universe prespective it might be an issue if the Serini finds out about Vaarsuvius's murder of the Draketooths.
From an out of universe prespective it might allow for The Giant to make a point about making assumptions about an entire people based on the second hand account of the actions of one individual.

Other than what Orrin done, neither Penelope nor Tarquin said or knew anything about the mass kidnapping, it was the order themselves who reached that conclusion.

That is kindof the point - the Order reached that conclusion based on very little, and then they (and we) accepted it.

The people killed in #843 seem to come from all over the social spectrum.

While Vaarsuvius's narrative indicates those people were related to the Draketooths - they also mention that dragons and humans are known for breeding outside their own species, it is entirely possible that some of the dead were related to other black dragons (and entirely possible that on the southern and northern continent similar deaths occured).

Yeah but then the Draketooths themselves would need to take care of that baby on their own at its most annoying and sleep-depriving. Hard pass.

This is one of the reasons that I am (somewhat) dubious about the clan kidnapping story - in the image of the dead Draketooths there is one obvious child if they were kidnapping frequently one might expect more children to be shown (and babies), also bringing children to what amounts to a secure military installation might be risky when it would be as easy to simply let them be raised by the non-Draketooth parent and have the Draketooth parent drop in from their 'work that requires lots of travel' every now and then, that way you can know that the child is suitable prior to including them in the conspiracy to protect the planet.

[brian 333]

The question here is not what the Draketooths could have done, but what they did. We need to separate what is known from what is speculative.

1) Girard was paranoid.
2) Girard only trusted family.
3) There were no children in the dining hall.
4) There were no non-Draketooths found in the pyramid.

A) Penelope told a sad tale to Tarquin that he told to Elan.
B) There is no evidence to support or refute that tale.
C) So far there has been no plot exposition to take advantage of the baby-kidnapping. For example, tracking the kidnapping ring to find their way to the pyramid.

My guess, and it is nothing more than a guess, is that Orrin found a woman of good genetic quality but poor ethical quality and arranged to have her bear, but not raise, his child. He simply didn't trust her to raise the baby to become a good Draketooth.
I believe that Tarquin speculated and extrapolated from one example, and spun the story to his advantage.

Further, I speculate that there would have been a variety of ways that the Draketooths would have expanded, from similar kidnappings to simply marrying and raising the children normally, and revealing their heritage at an appropriate time. These two extremes would have had a spectrum of options between them.

Finally, I believe the pyramid was a battle-base, and the children were raised elsewhere for their safety. The only family members present at the pyramids would have been those who passed tests of loyalty and dedication, and we're dedicated to the mission.

[InvisibleBison]

Finally, I believe the pyramid was a battle-base, and the children were raised elsewhere for their safety. The only family members present at the pyramids would have been those who passed tests of loyalty and dedication, and we're dedicated to the mission.

Except there is at least one child in the dining hall scene - on the floor in the bottom right, with pigtails and a purple outfit.

[mjasghar]

If a past scene is shown and it’s not a crayon, it happened. So the child was taken. Whilst it’s likely Penelope had a non-Good alignment we can’t be sure. Therefore people shouldn’t build massive backstories justifying their own prejudices based on theories they’ve pulled out of nowhere.