Optimized Two Man Team for a New Campaign (Levels 3-8)

[Nefariis]

A friend and I met a mutual acquaintance DM that writes campaigns for 1-2 person groups. He agreed to DM one of his latest campaigns for us - but he warned us that his campaigns are extremely difficult (as in they could easily kill 4 person groups), and are only meant for extremely optimized teams. He is a Dark Souls fanatic and insisted that the world itself will be out to kill us.

Both my friend and I consider ourselves fairly extreme optimizers (read min-maxers), but we usually min-max around the idea that we are playing in a group of 4-5 people to make up for what we are not optimizing for.

So this weekend we have been going back and forth on how to best synergize two characters to actually be useful enough in most situations, while staying alive, and hopefully being able to dish enough damage to avoid battles of attrition.

We know nothing about the campaign, or what is going to be thrown at us - but we do know its not going to be a dungeon crawl and its probably going to be fairly involved (based on hearing about his other campaigns).

We figured we each need to load up on skills, one (or both) of us need Heavy armor, and we both need to be able to output damage on command, and that damage probably needs to be more at-will than resource based (no idea how many rests we might get).

Expertise in Survival, Diplomacy, and athletics seem pretty crucial as well as having one CHA based character to be the face.


Races:
- Our thoughts were that we both probably had to be Half-Elves. Dark vision (because things hurt worse in the dark), advantage against charm and sleep, two skills, and floating ASI's seems too good to pass up.
- Honorable mention was Variant Human for the skilled feat and one extra skill - but the lack of darkvision could definitely be an issue.


Where we kind of landed:
- Paladin 2 / Lore Bard X (Heavy Armor, skills, reaction debuff, smite, nearly full caster, party face, magical secrets)
- Peace Cleric 1 / Scout Rogue X - (Medium Armor, 1d4 on all saves and attacks (order cleric), at will damage with sneak attack, expertise Survival/Nature, reaction retreat)

Paladin 6 for the auras seems like the most ideal class - but we are just not sure if we are going to survive from 3 to 6 to get it, which is why we landed on Peace Cleric which is a pseudo Paladin Aura at level 1 (especially if combined with Bless, which both characters have)

At level 5 we should be proficient in 16 of the 18 skills and expertise in 6 (I think), including a few of the important ones like survival, nature, diplomacy, athletics, and stealth.

Other classes that were strongly considered:
knowledge Cleric 1 / Moon Druid X - Huge HP pool, can front line, and has great out of combat spells.
Peace Cleric 1 / Arcane Trickster X - Access to Booming blade, find familiar
Knowledge Cleric 1 / Scout Rogue X - (Medium Armor, more skills/expertise, at will damage, spirit guardians, reaction retreat)
Twilight Cleric 2 / Scout Rogue X - Heavy Armor and Temp HP for the cost of an extra cleric level
Something 1 / Blade Singer X - decent at both spells and melee
Hexblade 1 / Lore Bard X - Great at melee and still has skills.

I think where we are lacking is in Utility spells, not having a Wizard or Druid is probably going to be really really painful in a few situations. Hopefully magical secrets can help with that (albeit at level 7) - but we were nervous about damage output, resources, and situations to where we just can't kill things fast enough.

So what do you guys think?

If you were to create a two man team for what might be an impossible campaign, how would you do it? what weaknesses would you be willing to overlook (the above is obviously utility spells)?

[animorte]

There are various Aasimar races that could pair mighty well with that Paladin. I think you're going the right direction with Lore Bard pairing to make up for utility.

1st-level Divine Soul Sorcerer can be extremely useful for immediate low-level utility that translates well to higher levels of play. Honestly. Then go straight Paladin.

Being here, I can't help but recommend Warlock (as I do always).
- Personally, Genie Warlock with Paladin dip (Vengeance or Crown) sounds super good to me.
- This is absolutely fantastic: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...postcount=1095
- I would not recommend Paladin with Hexblade for this specific request. Though Hexblade/Swashbuckler Rogue can be a melee monster, while also granting utility.

I would also look into Cleric/Druid:
- Life/Peace/Twilight Cleric with Shepherd/Dreams/Stars Druid. A ton of survivability and utility.

[Skrum]

I don't think you should build around it entirely, but blindsight/devil's sight/darkness is worth a look in this context. If both of you have a way to see in the darkness or fog, that'd be an easy way to secure a pretty large advantage over most foes. Fighters, paladins, rangers, and warlocks all have the ability to see in darkness, and being able to give the adv to both of you with only one casting of a spell....it's good.

[solidork]

I think you're overestimating the value of additional skill proficiencies. I think going out of your way to use heavy armor is also a mistake, you're going to have a similar AC at level 1 with medium armor and you'll have a better dexterity for saves and initiative. Rogue also seems a poor choice - with only one party member you're going to have a hard time getting sneak attack.

Picking up Pass without Trace seems very good - you can't die in fights that you avoid.

[CTurbo]

The first thing that came to mind was Paladin and Cleric so it looks like you're on the right track.

A few things...

In a 2 man party, I'd probably prioritize Dex over Str as Stealth will be more important than normal.

Alert is a much better feat in really small parties.

Rituals... especially Find Familiar make a much greater impact. I'd consider Paladin/Tomelock for all ritual access.

[RogueJK]

I'd probably do a Twilight Cleric and a Moon Druid. Something like this:

Custom Lineage Moon Druid:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 15+2
CHA 8
Ritual Caster Wizard at 1, Warcaster at 4, and Skill Expert (+1 WIS) at 8
Skills: Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, Nature, Arcana, Thieves Tools

Half Elf Twilight Cleric:
STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 9
WIS 15+2
CHA 13+1
Warcaster at 4, Fey Touched (+1 WIS) at 8
Skills: Insight, Persuasion, Deception, Survival, Acrobatics, Perception


You've got two full casters, with access to further Summoned allies, several means to buff the party and their summoned allies, and lots of utility casting.

Between the Channel Divinity Temp HP, Summoned creatures, and Combat Wild Shape, that's a large pool of "extra HP" available to this two man party. Plus they're both capable frontliners, since there won't be any "lines" on this battlefield.

You also can leverage Wild Shape forms for scouting/infiltration. And you have a Familiar scout too.

[J-H]

Half-elves are good, but don't overlook yuan-ti for poison resistance and magic resistance. Gnomes also have advantage on mental saves vs. magic. Dwarves can get you some automatic armor proficiencies.

Paladin is good. You also want a utility caster. I would go with Celestial Warlock, as it gets you a pretty sizeable pool of bonus action healing, as well as short rest spell slots. If you start the Warlock with a fighter dip, both of you can wear heavy armor and potentially benefit from HAM and shields for default high ACs. Grab Chain on the warlock and you get an invisible familiar who can scout for you and perform some of the tasks that a skill/Dex character would do (climb a wall to tie a rope for climbing, scout, deliver a message unseen, etc.). It's an extra half-party member.

Honorable mention: Battlesmith Artificer in place of the paladin. Flash of Genius lets him hand out some save boosts, the pet provides tanking and damage, and he can shore up some of the utility options with items and spellcasting. If your DM doesn't hand out a lot of magic items, this is a good way to get a few more.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think you need to figure out a way to get the upper hand in the majority of encounters, and avoid others. Another poster already mentioned the devil sight/ blindsight option and I think that's worth exploring. I don't love the idea of 1 Heavy Armor user. Quite the opposite; we've had success with smaller groups that are good at stealth. In that vein, I'd be thinking of a Shepherd Druid (with Pass Without Trace) and another Stealth proficient character. Druids give you lots of options in the exploration pillar and if things do go south they've got the best ability to summon and buff an army.

[Nefariis]

I don't think you should build around it entirely, but blindsight/devil's sight/darkness is worth a look in this context. If both of you have a way to see in the darkness or fog, that'd be an easy way to secure a pretty large advantage over most foes. Fighters, paladins, rangers, and warlocks all have the ability to see in darkness, and being able to give the adv to both of you with only one casting of a spell....it's good.

Eh, a team theme of devil's cheese just seems ripe for DM punishment

Custom Lineage Moon Druid:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 15+2
CHA 8
Ritual Caster Wizard at 1, Warcaster at 4, and Skill Expert (+1 WIS) at 8
Skills: Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, Nature, Arcana, Thieves Tools

Half Elf Twilight Cleric:
STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 9
WIS 15+2
CHA 13+1
Warcaster at 4, Fey Touched (+1 WIS) at 8
Skills: Insight, Persuasion, Deception, Survival, Acrobatics, Perception

I like this - the damage might be on the low side, but they would certainly make up for it in HP and Utility.


The only concern might be that we are planning for gritty realism (and hoping for not) - so what would happen if it's day 6 and we both ran out of spells and got cornered? could we cantrip our way out?

Warlocks only get two spells per short rest, which in my mind rules out anything but a single level dip (like hexblade for medium armor / CHA attacks).

One idea behind the heavy armor paladin was that he could be possible get his AC up to 24 (Heavy Armor, Shield, fighting style, cloak of protection, shield of faith) and then maybe we could add Sentinel Feat and let the Rogue do his thing with no resource cost.


Moon/Shepard Druid does seem like a really good option though - scouting, stealth, guidance, good berries. Maybe even dip 1 level of cleric - war, strength, twilight, knowledge or arcana all have some pretty good expanded spell lists / abilities.

For the people that are recommending stealth / pass without a trace - I think you are right, that will probably come up and come in handy.

If anyone has any other ideas - I'm all ears.

[Skrum]

Eh, a team theme of devil's cheese just seems ripe for DM punishment

That's what I'm saying, don't focus on it exclusively (because yeah, the DM probably will take that as you guys trying to cheese his game), I'm just saying both of you getting blindfight is relatively easy and low cost. Fighters can get it at 1, rangers and paladins at 2. And then dropping darkness or fog can be something you fall back on if needed, or if you need to escape. I wouldn't ignore the value of blindfight alone either. It's my go-to pick, especially for races that don't have dark vision. It keep YOU protected from invisibility shenanigans, which is potentially extremely valuable.

Are you starting at 3? That's going to change viable options considerably. Builds that don't really start to function until 8 are probably a non-starter.

Also, do you know anything like what this DM's style is? If he plays very sandbox, the smart move is probably rogue or bard as a base because they can do a lot to bypass or avoid encounters. As a long-term strategy for survival, this almost certainly beats out any type of maximum DPR build. Even if you can hit like a truck, not being able to mitigate or control the engagements most likely sees you drained of resources and killed in short order.

On the other hand, if he's more path-based, excelling at combat is probably the smarter move. I would associate this style of game with less ability for the players to control or avoid engagements, so being a hulked out pile of damage dice is the way to go (assuming you're going to be directed into combat).

So, all that said, my recommendation would be something like Paladin 2 Bard 6 as a possible best of both worlds. Consider using a race like fairy or tielfing or dhampir that can give you extra movement (utility) options. Since you're not going to get Extra Attack until 8th, duel-weilding short swords might be worthwhile (or use PAM if you can spare the feat). Bard provides utility and avoiding combat abilities, and when you're dragged into combat you'll have lots of slots to smite with.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'd probably do a Twilight Cleric and a Moon Druid. Something like this:

Custom Lineage Moon Druid:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 15+2
CHA 8
Ritual Caster Wizard at 1, Warcaster at 4, and Skill Expert (+1 WIS) at 8
Skills: Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, Nature, Arcana, Thieves Tools

Half Elf Twilight Cleric:
STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 9
WIS 15+2
CHA 13+1
Warcaster at 4, Fey Touched (+1 WIS) at 8
Skills: Insight, Persuasion, Deception, Survival, Acrobatics, Perception


You've got two full casters, with access to further Summoned allies, several means to buff the party and their summoned allies, and lots of utility casting.

Between the Channel Divinity Temp HP, Summoned creatures, and Combat Wild Shape, that's a large pool of "extra HP" available to this two man party. Plus they're both capable frontliners, since there won't be any "lines" on this battlefield.

You also can leverage Wild Shape forms for scouting/infiltration. And you have a Familiar scout too.

These are 2 of the strongest classes, so you can't go too far wrong here. I think both characters having Healing Word is almost a need, and Wis saves as well, since those are the ones that are just going to take you right out of combat. I've DMed 2 Moon Druids and 1 Shepherd; the Shepherd was an absolute beast partly due to his buffs applying to the Death Cleric's undead as well.

As far as gritty realism goes, I mean if the DM is trying to wear you down your best bet is to avoid and dominate as many encounters as you can; DPR isn't going to do that.

[Foxydono]

I think you're overestimating the value of additional skill proficiencies. I think going out of your way to use heavy armor is also a mistake, you're going to have a similar AC at level 1 with medium armor and you'll have a better dexterity for saves and initiative. Rogue also seems a poor choice - with only one party member you're going to have a hard time getting sneak attack.

Picking up Pass without Trace seems very good - you can't die in fights that you avoid.

I agree with the above. If the ****s hits the fan, heavy armor won't save you. Movement speed however will. As Solidork mentioned, being sneaky will save your life, so I see pass without trace as mandatory.

The other thing that can save you is a good lie. So I say you need a charisma based character also. I'd probably go deep stalker ranger 5 / rogue x for expertise. You can attack from range, good inniative and damage. The other character I would probably take warlock with repelling blast. A hexblade paladin is tempting, but I'd avoid melee range in combat and multiclass is a bit tricky unless you go 10+. Warlock with bard could work as well for expertise, but MC does hurt you.

Tldr: deep stalker ranger (bugbear) and warlock shadar kai, from new book of course. You can also pick the old Yuan Ti or old Aarakocra and take 1 lvl twilight cleric for darkvision.

[Kane0]

Knowing that I was going into a 2 man party I would be sorely tempted to pick Battlesmith Artificer, Wildfire Druid or Beastmaster Ranger just to get more bodies on the field.

Other than that, having both teammates with access to healing sounds essential, because there isnt anyone else to rely on if either one of you goes down and each of you is worth 50% of the party action economy.

Having only two party members means party stealth is much more viable, and you really dont want to be taking any more damage than is absolutely necessary so ranged kiting tactics sound like a must.

Edit: actually battlesmith + beastmaster could be an interesting duo, if not optimal in this case. Both have access to heals, decent magic and skill coverage including stealth, access to expendible meatshields, ability to shoot and scoot, make use of different mental stats. However neither makes for a very good face.

[Chronic]

A shepherd druid with a twilight cleric or an artillerist artificer. Trust me your darksoul style gm isn't ready.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The 'face' / charisma thing is probably DM or module dependent. I did put a thread on here some time ago surmising that a Shepherd Druid could solo huge sections of DiA. The one caveat I included was that social encounters where a bit of a crapshoot, so anywhere it was assumed the party could overcome / avoid a problem with a moderately high Charisma could be the Shepherd's undoing.

[Hael]

I would go cleric, druid or artificer. They are the best classes in the game generally speaking at those lvl ranges and while other classes might have some great synergy, these hit enough different aspects that I think they work fine together..

[KorvinStarmast]

Ranger: Gloomstalker
(take vHuman and Medium Armor Master, make sure stealth is a skill proficiency)
Druid: Circle of the Moon, I'd suggest Hill Dwarf, vHuman (res con feat) or Custom Race from Tasha's.

You can be sneaky if you need to be.