3.5 Shapechange Handbook discussion thread

[jmax]

Per Endarire's request, here's a new thread for discussion of my Shapechange Handbook.

Original post
Direct link

Remember - your DM puts a lot of work into their campaign. Be nice and don't smash it too hard. With great power comes great responsibility... and great cheese.

P.S. Endarire - I tried replying, but your PM inbox is full. You need to make room for more cheese!

[Endarire]

Thankee! I didn't know my PM box was full until you told me.

I request you edit the old thread's first post to add a link to this discussion.

[Endarire]

Also, what shapechange forms have native access to an (Ex) or a (Su) version of planar binding (lesser, normal, or great) or gate? I ask because it's minionmancy, but from a broad list of candidates.

Request: Add feats to the list of things explicitly granted by shapechange since they're normally (Ex) but Exalted feats and perhaps other feats are (Su).

NOTE: Seemingly, being a Midgard Dwarf ignores the prerequisites on set items (Raiment of the Four, Trappings of the Beast, etc.) to have at least one other piece of the set since those are in the prerequisites section and the Master Smith (Ex) ability ignores that! Alleluia!

Thankee!

[jmax]

Sorry for the delay - I've been out of town and busy.

Thankee! I didn't know my PM box was full until you told me.

You're welcome!

I request you edit the old thread's first post to add a link to this discussion.

Done.

Also, what shapechange forms have native access to an (Ex) or a (Su) version of planar binding (lesser, normal, or great) or gate? I ask because it's minionmancy, but from a broad list of candidates.

None that I know of. If they did, I'd have listed them - either under "Minions!" or under "Spell Duplication".

You might be able to make a case for it with some of the forms that get Ex or Su spellcasting, but I explicitly recommend against using those because there are all sorts of problems (plus it feels like borderline cheating). If you do go down that path, Hobgoblin Warsoul is probably your best bet. That only gets you Lesser Planar Binding, but that's still potent.

Request: Add feats to the list of things explicitly granted by shapechange since they're normally (Ex) but Exalted feats and perhaps other feats are (Su).

I think that's a stretch. Feats (aside from racial bonus feats) are a personal attribute of any given creature. The Monster Manual stat-blocks have a default list, but any individual could have different ones. Further, the statement that you get Ex abilities explicitly spells out "both attacks and qualities", implying that it applies specifically to the "special attacks" and "special qualities" portion of the stat-blocks. Feats aren't repeated there.

You do get racial bonus feats, but they're generally quite rare on high-powered creatures - mostly they're used to shoehorn extra feats onto low-HD creatures that need them to make any sense but don't have enough hit dice to qualify. I don't think there were any worth including in the handbook.

NOTE: Seemingly, being a Midgard Dwarf ignores the prerequisites on set items (Raiment of the Four, Trappings of the Beast, etc.) to have at least one other piece of the set since those are in the prerequisites section and the Master Smith (Ex) ability ignores that! Alleluia!

That does sound to me like it should work.

[Endarire]

Thankee!

As Zanos mentioned in this thread, Midgar Dwarf can also make relics like a Bow of the Wintermoon and ignore/mitigate other pesky requirements, such as alignment.

Feat-wise, you mentioned Planetars getting Improved Initiative. How did you determine this if not all feats are given via shapechange?

Thankee!

[jmax]

As Zanos mentioned in this thread, Midgar Dwarf can also make relics like a Bow of the Wintermoon and ignore/mitigate other pesky requirements, such as alignment.

Added that in the Midgard Dwarf's entry under the Cheese section.

Feat-wise, you mentioned Planetars getting Improved Initiative. How did you determine this if not all feats are given via shapechange?

I don't see any reference to Improved Initiative for Planetars anywhere in the handbook - and in fact I specifically note the Planetar as having only +4 (just from 19 Dex) for Initiative even though the printed stat-block has +8 with Improved Initiative. I do have it listed for Dread Wraith, and I explicitly call out that you DO get it because it's a racial bonus feat - as opposed to Deathshrieker, for which it is not a racial bonus feat and therefore you don't get it.

My Assumptions section explains how I make feat determinations - and also explains that it's purely interpretation on my part. I think an argument could be made for Improved Initiative because it's part of the stat block, but it's not a strong argument.

A better argument would be flying animals that get Flyby Attack and Snatch, e.g. the Roc. While those are technically "learned" feats, they're sort of inherent to how those animals hunt. One could argue that all birds of prey should have Flyby Attack and Snatch (never mind the Huge prereq) as Special Attacks, but that's not how the authors spec'd things out. It's something you can take up with your DM, and they may well give it to you - if only because you're breaking the game way less with Flyby Attack and Snatch as a roc than you would be with, say, Prismatic Golem's immunity to basically everything.

If you want to make a supplemental handbook calling out all the creatures that will give you nice feats if your DM allows it, feel free - I'll link it from my Assumptions section or maybe a "Feats" block with a similar explanation. I'm not going to redo all of the book-combing myself for it, though.

[loky1109]

One could argue that all birds of prey should have Flyby Attack and Snatch (never mind the Huge prereq)

It had been removed in latest version of the feat (MM5).

[jmax]

It had been removed in latest version of the feat (MM5).

Excellent. That does make more sense. And it actually makes that feat fairly potent, since it adds Improved Grab+ to a wide variety of fighting forms. I might have to add that to my current druid character's wish list. Thanks!

EDIT: Are you sure? I just checked MM5, and the old prereq language is still there. It looks like they changed it in MM2 and then changed it back in MM5. WTF.

[Endarire]

I believe your assumptions are correct regarding feats, since the 3.5 Druid's Elemental Wild Shape lists feats as a separate thing gained from Ex abilities, and the Planar Shepherd has similar verbage for its Outsider & Elemental forms, but lacks the explicit mention of feats being granted.

Regardless, this is a matter of asking the GM.

[loky1109]

EDIT: Are you sure? I just checked MM5, and the old prereq language is still there. It looks like they changed it in MM2 and then changed it back in MM5. WTF.

Hmm... I could mistake. It's some bad new.

[Endarire]

Angels have a Protective Aura which acts as a double strength magic circle effect.

A lillend has Bardic Music as a L6 Bard plus flight and other misc. things.

[jmax]

Angels have a Protective Aura which acts as a double strength magic circle effect.

A lillend has Bardic Music as a L6 Bard plus flight and other misc. things.

Protective Aura already has its own heading, and angels are listed.

Bardic Music also has its own heading, but Lillend wasn't listed because it's not labeled an Ex or Su ability - it's tucked in with Spell-Like Abilities and not listed on the statblock. You could make an argument for it, and I added it with a note that you might not get it, but it's also pretty weak, and the form has almost nothing else to offer (better options for everything else it does). Also, strictly speaking, you will need appropriate Perform ranks to use it.

[Endarire]

My apologies regarding Protective Aura: I thought it would be mentioned under Magic Circle since it's sorta that.

[jmax]

My apologies regarding Protective Aura: I thought it would be mentioned under Magic Circle since it's sorta that.

No worries. There are some things that really could stand to be reorganized, and that's one of them. It probably belongs under a "Buffs" section. Having Magic Circle Against X and Protective Aura as separate listings is definitely not great.

[Endarire]

Various WotC archive material was moved. Siabrie and acorn of far travel and fey ring are at these new URLs, for example.

[jmax]

Various WotC archive material was moved. Siabrie and acorn of far travel and fey ring are at these new URLs, for example.

I have opinions about WotC deleting all the old 3.5 content (especially their forums), but they include language that would likely be against forum rules.

Links updated - thanks for the reminder.

[Endarire]

Something worth making more prominent in the guide is that, because shapechange is normally a self-only spell, it can be cast on your animal companions and familiars. Sure, a fleshraker buffed with venomfire and animal growth can be potent - and maybe should be included in the guide - but there's probably something better for it to be!

What sort of natural attack-oriented forms do you recommend for such creatures?

Thankee!

[jmax]

Something worth making more prominent in the guide is that, because shapechange is normally a self-only spell, it can be cast on your animal companions and familiars.

That is a good point. I'll think about where to stick it. It's definitely cheesy though.

Also one could make an argument that an animal companion doesn't have the intelligence to exploit a new form tactically. It might pull off the beat-stickery, but that's probably it. There's a big difference between "the new form does not disorient you" and "I instinctively know what to do with all these extra tentacles."

What sort of natural attack-oriented forms do you recommend for such creatures?

The same as for the caster. Start with Go-to Forms -> Combat near the top.

Combat
Extremely situational, but that’s why you’re here. “Defense, Physical” and “Defense, Magical” are great places to start if you intend to fight with spells. If you’re looking for pure beat-stick potential, Colossal Squid is hands-down the best with animal buffs and Ancient Night Twist without. Take a look at “Damage, Melee” and “Optimizing Shapechange” to get started.

Unfortunately, there is little overlap between the best beat-stick forms and the best defensive forms (which make you basically invincible). If you can live with “merely” being super resilient while having tremendous damage output, my favorites are Ancient Night Twist and Gloom (both 25 HD, bring your own flight spell) depending on the situation.

If you're going to go the Share Spells route, consider filling both roles - give your buddy the beat-stick form and use a defensive spellcasting form yourself. Or just do two beat-sticks.

[yeetusmcgeetus]

So I'm kinda a dumb lil goober at this version, but I think I noticed something that could make the 12-headed hydras (more) powerful. Unless I'm completely misreading something, shouldn't you be able to lose your heads (always keeping one active at a time so you don't die) and then have 24 heads?

Edit: oh yeah and some more cheese that is probably just me misinterpreting things. Taking the form of a Malaugrym allows you to transform into ANYTHING that's not a deity or a very large object; that's mentioned in the table, though I would think overriding the usual HD limitation would be worthy of a little more applause, since it means you could turn into a tarrasque at level 17. The really cheesy thing I noticed though is that the "object" part doesn't specify non-magical objects...

Am I horribly wrong, or could you shapechange your familiar/companion into, say, one of the ability score books?

[jmax]

A reasonable DM would probably let you have 24 heads on a hydra, yes. Technically it's not listed as an Ex or Su ability, but it obviously should be. Plus that's barely medium cheese on the Shapechange scale, and you'd have to stay in hydra form to maintain the extras - the DM is probably better off with you clinging to your 24 heads than arguing with him about whether he should allow Chronotyryn or how many wishes you can get from Zodar :-P

Malaugrym is mentioned in two places. You want the entry under "Cheese". I've updated it to spell out explicitly that there's no HD limit.

Removing the HD cap is nifty, though I'd have to go look at all the 29-plus-hit-dice monsters to see whether you'd actually get anything really worthwhile. Aside from Xixecal Abomination's permanent Dire Winter, which I've always wanted >:D

As for changing into magic items... well, that's interesting. Reading the 3.0 Shapechange text, that actually seems legit, or at least I don't see anything that says it isn't. Technically, using Share Spells to have your familiar/companion change into a magic item would also be legit. However, if I was your DM, I'd rule that consuming your animal companion for power counts as not revering nature and that consuming your familiar hits you with the punitive XP loss for a familiar dying (which, now that I look at it, actually isn't as much as I thought - I was thinking 1000 EXP/level, but it's only 100-200/level, which is probably a good trade). But if you just wanted to make yourself a really bad-ass weapon, I'd allow that as a DM, if only because it means I wouldn't have to deal with two concurrent instances of Shapechange or evaluate which forms your familiar/companion is familiar enough with to change into (and whether your companion is smart enough to change form at all).

[Anthrowhale]

Malaugrym is mentioned in two places. You want the entry under "Cheese". I've updated it to spell out explicitly that there's no HD limit.

It's not clear to me that there's no hit die limit? It says '...as the shapechange spell cast by a 20th level sorcerer...' Caster level is irrelevant unless the 20HD cap still applies.

If you can get around the HD cap, Protean is fairly capable.

[jmax]

It's not clear to me that there's no hit die limit? It says '...as the shapechange spell cast by a 20th level sorcerer...' Caster level is irrelevant unless the 20HD cap still applies.

It's the 3.0 Shapechange. 3.0 Shapechange has no HD cap and allows changing into an object.

As polymorph other, except this spell enables you to assume the form of any single creature of less than deity status (including unique dragon types, or the like) or any single object. The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension. Unlike polymorph other, this spell allows incorporeal forms to be assumed.

Alas, there's a detail I'd missed before:

Your new form works like a polymorph other form. You still do not gain the supernatural or spell-like abilities of your new form, though you do gain its extraordinary abilities while keeping your own.

So no permanent Dire Winter for me.

[Anthrowhale]

It's the 3.0 Shapechange. 3.0 Shapechange has no HD cap and allows changing into an object.

Interesting. It would presumably be subject to change in any 3.5 game in the way that all 3.0 specific content is?

[jmax]

Is there an official rule for that? Particularly when it causes a conflict with the text describing the ability of the creature?

But also note this:

I would be remiss if I did not mention that the 3.5 update to Monsters of Faerun replaces this ability with generic Change Shape, which lets you look like the new form but not actually get anything beyond its gross physical features and maybe some mundane clothing if you’re being generous. But you have to go out of your way to find that update, and you’d have no way of knowing you were supposed to if you didn’t go out of your way to look. On the bright side, it gives us an indisputable, non-cheese way to look like whatever the heck we want, including assuming the shape of inanimate objects of any size up to a 200-ft cube.

Also [arbitrary unpleasant verb] Wizards of the Coast for killing the hosting on all the old reference material. All they had to do was just stick it in an S3 bucket and redirect the URLs - it might have cost them whole dollars per year. I had to do quite a lot of digging to find a working copy of the FR 3.5 update, but it's now linked in the handbook.

[Anthrowhale]

Is there an official rule for that? Particularly when it causes a conflict with the text describing the ability of the creature?

Yesish. At the beginning of the 3.5 PHB it says that 3.0 content can be used with "minor revisions". My understanding is that all 3.0 content is subject to such.

But also note this:

Wow, that's generally a much bigger nerf than 3.5 shapechange.

[jmax]

Yesish. At the beginning of the 3.5 PHB it says that 3.0 content can be used with "minor revisions". My understanding is that all 3.0 content is subject to such.

Not sure I agree that's quite the same thing as "all things get converted as closely as possible" - but I don't think there's any point in arguing it out, either.

Wow, that's generally a much bigger nerf than 3.5 shapechange.

Yeah, but it's so hard to find as to be barely worth worrying about. Plus I'm almost more interested in fluff than the crunch at that point - it's a niche ability on a niche creature, so I'm more concerned with having fun than with how powerful it is.

[Windaar]

Hi. Thank you so much for this!! I have a couple questions:

1. Prismatic Golem, Zodar, and the like - These things can't speak. How would I cast spells or even just communicate in these forms? Natural Spell applies specifically to Wild Shape, and Pearls of Speech seem iffy.

2. Siabrie, Awaken Desert - Why do you believe the elementals appear immediately? "...except that all of the elementals appear at once" could easily be interpreted as, as opposed to "10 minutes later" and "10 minutes after that" but still needing the initial ten-minute cast time.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy