Playing against your own Alignment

[Burley]

So, I've got this rad character name Chappy who is a Hat Magician (Conjuration Wizard). And, I think he's great. I've already sought help from the playground on the character concept.
What I'm coming to the forum with now is more about alignment. I'm not comfortable playing evil characters and we're pirates.

I've tried, but I can't be "in character" without thinking of NPCs and monsters as living beings, as much as my character is a living being. So, I often play good or neutral characters. This character is certainly neutral, being "good" to his crewmates (always helpful and ready to do a magic trick to entertain) and, as assistant to the boatswain, he's a popular guy.
But, when we're on a mission, the actions of piracy are, with few exceptions, evil acts. I don't think we need to worry about alignment changes or falling from grace, but I just don't know how to play a bad guy without playing a villain.


Anybody else have trouble playing morally dubious characters? What kind of actions do you take? How can I play a pirate that's, like, a pirate? (I'll be completely staying away from the rapaciousness of piracy.)

[RogueJK]

Well, just because you're a pirate doesn't mean you have to be evil...

For example, Robin Hood was a "pirate" of sorts, but wasn't evil. It's mostly about who you're plundering. If it's the evil tyrannical government and you're plundering gold they've taken by force from the villages they've massacred, then you could be good or neutral pirates. If it's helpless refugees and commoners and you're plundering the last of their food and remaining valuables, then that'd be evil pirates.

Or there were real-world pirates (privateers) which were warships hired on contract by countries to target just the merchant vessels of the other countries with which they were currently at war... Sort of a quasi-legal piracy-as-act-of-war. Many of those had strict rules and codes of honor they followed.

Or maybe you're pirates who only target other pirates. (The old "mafia assassin who only kills bad guys, but absolutely never any innocents" trope.)

Or, even if your fellow pirates are evil, perhaps your character has just been caught up in it as an act of necessity. You're not a bad guy, you've just had to flee your home after being framed for a heinous crime by a rival, and hitching a ride on a pirate ship was your only means to escape and remain free until you can clear your name. Now you're a reluctant pirate, who tries his best to act as the conscience and voice of reason to some of the more bloodthirsty crewmembers, and do good whenever the opportunity presents itself.

[strangebloke]

Pretty easy, to be honest. Think about the historical practices of pirates. Generally, pirates had some kind of reason for doing what they're doing. Maybe they were raiding people their nation was at war with, or maybe they were desperate not to be killed by the navy they deserted. If you're just playing an evil skeletor-like figure, that's going to be hard to pull off, but if you give your character some decent motivations, they can make more sense and be more appealing. So your character might be evil, but they're raiding the imperial navy, and those guys are evil too, and your character justifies what they do on that basis.

Adding to this, your character can be evil while still having standards. Perhaps they're willing to kill, but not to trade in slaves. Maybe they really would rather avoid killing at all (preferring to use intimidation and threats) but are willing to kill for the sake of their fellow crew if the chips are down.

But overall yeah, evil campaigns as such aren't really fun to me.

[Burley]

So, this character was originally kidnapped to work on the ship (because he can read). Because the character has a speech impediment, he was refused from wizarding schools and apprenticeships. But, he feels useful on the ship, for the first time in his life. So, this is where he belongs.

But, he's also not able to call the shots. Rule 1 on a pirate ship is "Do what the Captain says." The Captain, surprise surprise, is a pirate.

Our first session had us plunging the inky depths of sunken ship for a map and whatever loot we wanted. I played it pirate-y by saying "Yeah, we got the map early, but we can also go below deck and look for more treasure!" But, then, when we went down there, we found a creature that had a language and I was all "Comprehend Languages, let's talk." It was just some ol' sea hag and her octopus friend. Why'm I tryin' to talk to some water witch? That ain't pirate-y.

[Skrum]

Sort of what others said, I think the place to start is by identifying what motivates your character. Why has he become a pirate? What does he want? What are his longer term goals? A lot of stuff falls into place - or least can point you in a direction - based on the answers.

[Mastikator]

So, this character was originally kidnapped to work on the ship (because he can read). Because the character has a speech impediment, he was refused from wizarding schools and apprenticeships. But, he feels useful on the ship, for the first time in his life. So, this is where he belongs.

But, he's also not able to call the shots. Rule 1 on a pirate ship is "Do what the Captain says." The Captain, surprise surprise, is a pirate.

Our first session had us plunging the inky depths of sunken ship for a map and whatever loot we wanted. I played it pirate-y by saying "Yeah, we got the map early, but we can also go below deck and look for more treasure!" But, then, when we went down there, we found a creature that had a language and I was all "Comprehend Languages, let's talk." It was just some ol' sea hag and her octopus friend. Why'm I tryin' to talk to some water witch? That ain't pirate-y.

Have you seen Pirates of the Caribbean? Because the pirates talk to a water witch and it's very pirate-y.

[Demonslayer666]

You don't have to play a bad guy and participate, but you will have to play along and tolerate some stuff.

It's ok to speak out against their actions, you just can't have the convictions to try and stop them by force (unless you can get away with it).

The crew will throw you overboard if you oppose them too much and refuse to help.

[Corran]

So, I've got this rad character name Chappy who is a Hat Magician (Conjuration Wizard). And, I think he's great. I've already sought help from the playground on the character concept.
What I'm coming to the forum with now is more about alignment. I'm not comfortable playing evil characters and we're pirates.

I've tried, but I can't be "in character" without thinking of NPCs and monsters as living beings, as much as my character is a living being. So, I often play good or neutral characters. This character is certainly neutral, being "good" to his crewmates (always helpful and ready to do a magic trick to entertain) and, as assistant to the boatswain, he's a popular guy.
But, when we're on a mission, the actions of piracy are, with few exceptions, evil acts. I don't think we need to worry about alignment changes or falling from grace, but I just don't know how to play a bad guy without playing a villain.


Anybody else have trouble playing morally dubious characters? What kind of actions do you take? How can I play a pirate that's, like, a pirate? (I'll be completely staying away from the rapaciousness of piracy.)

Well, you dont have to play an evil character if you dont like it. Just find a reason why your character has to be part of a pirate crew. Perhaps they desperately need the gold for something (eg pay the debts of a family member) and joining the crew was the best choice at the time. Maybe you are paying off a debt of a loved one to the pirate captain. Maybe you were saved by the pirates and in return you now have to work for them for an agreed period. Maybe you are running away from something and that was an easy escape. You didn't think too well about it obviously but now there's no turning back. Whatever the reason, now you are there, and you are roleplaying your OoC situation, ie trying to adapt. Some evil acts may be unavoidable, there will be plundering, there will be killing. Your character must have made their peace with that, at least to some extent. Roleplay the coping with. And try to do good whenever you can. Just try to spot the opportunities.

Alternatively, if you want to try and commit to an evil and/or piraty rp, the best way to handle your difficulties would be to think of a character from movies or literature that is ether evil, or a bit of a scoundrel, you pick the degree. Use this character as inspiration to start with, and after a few sessions you'll probably have a better idea about who your character is and you'll carry on from there. Sometimes it's just the beginning that's awkward. So use some inspiration to get you started and after that, time, story and party dynamics will do the rest.

[strangebloke]

So, this character was originally kidnapped to work on the ship (because he can read). Because the character has a speech impediment, he was refused from wizarding schools and apprenticeships. But, he feels useful on the ship, for the first time in his life. So, this is where he belongs.

But, he's also not able to call the shots. Rule 1 on a pirate ship is "Do what the Captain says." The Captain, surprise surprise, is a pirate.

Our first session had us plunging the inky depths of sunken ship for a map and whatever loot we wanted. I played it pirate-y by saying "Yeah, we got the map early, but we can also go below deck and look for more treasure!" But, then, when we went down there, we found a creature that had a language and I was all "Comprehend Languages, let's talk." It was just some ol' sea hag and her octopus friend. Why'm I tryin' to talk to some water witch? That ain't pirate-y.

Nah, pirate media is simply littered with hags and magic and spooky curses and such. Very on-brand.

Sounds like you have a pretty good character outline already. Not sure what you need from us tbh!

[Amechra]

Why'm I tryin' to talk to some water witch? That ain't pirate-y.

You talk to the water witch because otherwise your crew might die. Like, all of them.

Ships are very, very vulnerable, and anyone who can conjure up a storm or chat up a sea monster is something you keep on your good side, regardless of how bloodthirsty you are.

[Burley]

Nah, pirate media is simply littered with hags and magic and spooky curses and such. Very on-brand.

Sounds like you have a pretty good character outline already. Not sure what you need from us tbh!

It's RPing the evil stuff, or help being comfortable with that, I guess. My character is into the pirate life. It works for him. I guess I need to work out what he's okay with doing. Like, he's not going to kill somebody or something that surrenders, because that could mean a new crew member. But, I think he would kill somebody running away, because a coward on the crew is a liability, so, that guy gonna die.

I'm having fun RPing my character already (his spells are fun to do and his voice is proving rather endearing). How does Jack Sparrow deal with the oogy murder stuff? We, like, never see that dude kill anything, except for the villain at the end.

[kingcheesepants]

I think probably the best thing you could do would be to broaden your mind as to what constitutes being a pirate. You seem to have a relatively narrow view of what it means to be a pirate which necessitates you being evil or at best neutral and being obsessed with booty and fighting. But you can take a look at a bunch of different pirate shows/movies/games and see pirates that would 100% be labeled as good and have a wide variety of goals and motivations. Some examples that spring to mind would be some of the main pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean, the main characters in One Piece, the pirates in Legend of Zelda Windwaker, some of the pirates in Assassins Creed Black Flag, to be honest most pirate media where the pirates serve as protagonists rather than solely as antagonists, they're usually fairly heroic. Even a number of real life pirates were fairly nuanced and had codes of conduct and didn't target civilian ships or even did things like fighting against the slave trade.
So really I wouldn't mind too much about being piratey, being a pirate can be whatever you want it to mean and one of the small number of things that pretty much every version of a pirate has is freedom. So as the song goes, "Do what you want cause a pirate is free."

[Burley]

I think probably the best thing you could do would be to broaden your mind as to what constitutes being a pirate. You seem to have a relatively narrow view of what it means to be a pirate which necessitates you being evil or at best neutral and being obsessed with booty and fighting. But you can take a look at a bunch of different pirate shows/movies/games and see pirates that would 100% be labeled as good and have a wide variety of goals and motivations. Some examples that spring to mind would be some of the main pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean, the main characters in One Piece, the pirates in Legend of Zelda Windwaker, some of the pirates in Assassins Creed Black Flag, to be honest most pirate media where the pirates serve as protagonists rather than solely as antagonists, they're usually fairly heroic. Even a number of real life pirates were fairly nuanced and had codes of conduct and didn't target civilian ships or even did things like fighting against the slave trade.
So really I wouldn't mind too much about being piratey, being a pirate can be whatever you want it to mean and one of the small number of things that pretty much every version of a pirate has is freedom. So as the song goes, "Do what you want cause a pirate is free."

So, here's the thing: In all of the media mentioned, the characters who get to make their own rules are the ones in charge of their vessel. Pirate crewmen aren't really all that free. They have to do what their captain tells them. They're free from all the land-based laws that say they can't do all the murder and pillaging, but the penalty for not doing what your captain says is... well, there's only a couple punishments on a pirate ship and I'm not trying to get in the BooBox. (That pirate was played by Glen Close, by the way. Interesting trivia.) This pirate ship is like Hook's: Do the crime, or I'll end your time.


Maybe I don't know what I'm asking for? Maybe I'm not asking for advice so much as asking for commiseration? How have people handled RPing things that make them feel uncomfortable, especially when your character doesn't have a ton of options for how they traverse points A -> B?

[Morgaln]

So, here's the thing: In all of the media mentioned, the characters who get to make their own rules are the ones in charge of their vessel. Pirate crewmen aren't really all that free. They have to do what their captain tells them. They're free from all the land-based laws that say they can't do all the murder and pillaging, but the penalty for not doing what your captain says is... well, there's only a couple punishments on a pirate ship and I'm not trying to get in the BooBox. (That pirate was played by Glen Close, by the way. Interesting trivia.) This pirate ship is like Hook's: Do the crime, or I'll end your time.


Maybe I don't know what I'm asking for? Maybe I'm not asking for advice so much as asking for commiseration? How have people handled RPing things that make them feel uncomfortable, especially when your character doesn't have a ton of options for how they traverse points A -> B?

So I gather from this that the pirate captain (a NPC I assume?) is the stereotypical evil pirate? Meaning, when you capture a ship, he'll murder the crew, steal everything and sink the ship? What do the other players think about that? Are they also uncomfortable? Do they not mind? Or even enjoy it?

One way to potentially deal with it is to transfer what makes you uncomfortable to your character. You can try to subtly influence the captain to make him less murderous. There are, after all, advantages to not murder everyone. For one, a crew that has hope to survive is more likely to surrender than fight to the death, which also cuts down on attrition to your own crew. And a ship that isn't sunk might well come through again, laden with new goods to steal.

[kingcheesepants]

So, here's the thing: In all of the media mentioned, the characters who get to make their own rules are the ones in charge of their vessel. Pirate crewmen aren't really all that free. They have to do what their captain tells them. They're free from all the land-based laws that say they can't do all the murder and pillaging, but the penalty for not doing what your captain says is... well, there's only a couple punishments on a pirate ship and I'm not trying to get in the BooBox. (That pirate was played by Glen Close, by the way. Interesting trivia.) This pirate ship is like Hook's: Do the crime, or I'll end your time.


Maybe I don't know what I'm asking for? Maybe I'm not asking for advice so much as asking for commiseration? How have people handled RPing things that make them feel uncomfortable, especially when your character doesn't have a ton of options for how they traverse points A -> B?

Ah I see. So it isn't so much that you don't know how to be a good pirate it's more of a how do I work under an evil captain without either A doing evil stuff that makes me uncomfortable or B just saying no and either getting my character killed or grinding the session to a halt as everyone else tries to work around me cause I won't play along.

To that I'd say the best way would be to have an out of character discussion with the rest of the group and particularly the DM and tell them that you aren't really on board with an overtly evil campaign and see if you can't get them to scale it back so that the ship is less Captain Hook and more Luffy.

But if the DM really wants to keep the captain as overtly evil maybe your character can team up with the other players and stage a mutiny? Or less drastically perhaps you could convince the other players to wander off with you and make their own crew? Or you might be able to creatively interpret orders such that you aren't actually doing the evil stuff but you technically aren't disobeying orders either. You haven't really given any examples of particular orders you've been given that have made you uncomfortable but maybe some concrete examples could help.

[Burley]

So I gather from this that the pirate captain (a NPC I assume?) is the stereotypical evil pirate? Meaning, when you capture a ship, he'll murder the crew, steal everything and sink the ship? What do the other players think about that? Are they also uncomfortable? Do they not mind? Or even enjoy it?

One way to potentially deal with it is to transfer what makes you uncomfortable to your character. You can try to subtly influence the captain to make him less murderous. There are, after all, advantages to not murder everyone. For one, a crew that has hope to survive is more likely to surrender than fight to the death, which also cuts down on attrition to your own crew. And a ship that isn't sunk might well come through again, laden with new goods to steal.

Well, when we began surfacing at the end of the previous session, we found our ship under attack, so, I guess I'll see next week exactly what kind of captain our captain is captain. And, also how the rest of the party feels about it, I guess.
But, I think the realistic middle-ground between "stereotypical evil" and "Monkey D Luffy" is what real pirate captains did: Killed everybody who fought back and everybody who was in charge. Those who surrendered would be spared if they joined the crew, because we probably lost a few guys during the attack. The greed and plunderlust needs to be encouraged by the captain, as its the only way to pay the crew, which is the only way to keep a crowd of proud murders focused. (I think Our Flag Means Death has the captain paying from his own pocket, as he was a very wealthy man before becoming a pirate.)

But if the DM really wants to keep the captain as overtly evil maybe your character can team up with the other players and stage a mutiny? Or less drastically perhaps you could convince the other players to wander off with you and make their own crew? Or you might be able to creatively interpret orders such that you aren't actually doing the evil stuff but you technically aren't disobeying orders either. You haven't really given any examples of particular orders you've been given that have made you uncomfortable but maybe some concrete examples could help.

You're totally right; I've only had one session so far and our orders were not morally difficult to follow. We're gonna be doing other stuff, though, y'know? We had the Session 0 conversation about our comforts. We drew a hardline on sexual assault, but murder and junk is part-and-parcel of D&D. The understanding is that other ships will likely be less monster-y and more intelligent humanoid-y, but we're pirates and we kill people. Our Session 0 handouts did have a bit of mechanical rules for ships, in case we get our own, so, our own ship may be in the cards.

I'm just, personally, in real life, never okay with the ending of an intelligent life for any reason. Monsters in dungeons, lycanthropes, sentient fireballs are all easy for me to "theatre of the mind," but I get squigged out by human on human violence for entertainment. Usually, when it comes up in D&D, its no big deal, because we're the good guys and that one human I have to stab just did a big ol' village sacrifice. But, we're the baddies here. Maybe the neutralies, sometimes, I guess. Mostly, though, Sea Bandits are the baddies.


Edit PS: Oh, snap. We're gonna get put down, aren't we? That's my character's ultimate motivation now: To avoid heroes- like the spellplague. Killing pirates and naval officers is one thing. Killing the saviors of Villagetopia is another.

[Unoriginal]

Your PC could kill the captain and become the new captain.

That way you don't have to obey when the captain orders you to do evil stuff.

You're totally right; I've only had one session so far and our orders were not morally difficult to follow. We're gonna be doing other stuff, though, y'know? We had the Session 0 conversation about our comforts. We drew a hardline on sexual assault, but murder and junk is part-and-parcel of D&D. The understanding is that other ships will likely be less monster-y and more intelligent humanoid-y, but we're pirates and we kill people. Our Session 0 handouts did have a bit of mechanical rules for ships, in case we get our own, so, our own ship may be in the cards.

I'm just, personally, in real life, never okay with the ending of an intelligent life for any reason. Monsters in dungeons, lycanthropes, sentient fireballs are all easy for me to "theatre of the mind," but I get squigged out by human on human violence for entertainment. Usually, when it comes up in D&D, its no big deal, because we're the good guys and that one human I have to stab just did a big ol' village sacrifice. But, we're the baddies here. Maybe the neutralies, sometimes, I guess. Mostly, though, Sea Bandits are the baddies.

Have you expressed this concern during Session 0, or did you think it was bearable until it happened in-game?

Nothing wrong with going "sorry, folks, this is not working for me", if the campaign isn't working for you.

[OldTrees1]

Anybody else have trouble playing morally dubious characters? What kind of actions do you take? How can I play a pirate that's, like, a pirate? (I'll be completely staying away from the rapaciousness of piracy.)

I find if I try to play a morally dubious character without thinking it through, I revert back to my morality.

I have found it helpful to remember everyone generally thinks they are doing what they should do given the circumstances. I don't need to play against my alignment. I need to play some misguided understanding of morality. Then I just worry about understanding the misguided morality and using that as a compass for the character.

Last campaign I played a Hag named Granny that was loyal and cared about the Ratfolk party leader. "Take care of your own, it does not matter how." was her compass. She willingly went to the nine hells to fight the possibility of the Ratfolk's sewer home being destroyed. She also had no compunction about torturing or killing innocents if it became required.

This campaign I am playing an Illithid. They are the only intelligent species living in a world of livestock. They tend to the flock and feed from the flock.

By knowing their moral compass, and understanding why they are misguided, it helps me play against my morality. When they do something I wouldn't do, I know why they did it and why they are wrong. That helps me let them do it.

[Burley]

I find if I try to play a morally dubious character without thinking it through, I revert back to my morality.

Same. So same.

But your advice about finding what matters is sound. Chappy (my character) values the respect of his comrades more than anything and is always seeking to prove his worth. Before he came on board, he would perform magic tricks at the docks for coin and was often looked down on as a vagabond, even though he's a dang wizard, pulling something out of nothing. I think he has an open contempt for "snooty" people, including the military and aristocracy. Now, I don't think contempt translates to bloodlust, but it would certainly get his conjuring hand itchy, especially if said snooter was actively snooting.

[truemane]

So, first of all, I would seriously consider just not playing this game or having a discussion about it with the group/DM. We can tell you all about how we do whatever, but if you don't find playing a pirate fun, then you might be out of luck before you start.

Failing that, you could be the 'good guy' on a ship full of pirates. Is it possible you could maintain Chappy's moral compass as similar to your own and figure out what he would do, given his situation? Would he just not participate in certain activities? Only use non-lethal spells and effects? Insist on certain limits or boundaries? I once played a strict pacifist in a typical murderhobo party once, and it was a lot of fun. She cast buffs and healing spells and the occasional super indirect area control spell, and she was always trying to convert the other party members or try to use diplomacy in situations where it clearly wasn't a viable solution.

Failing that, as others have said, the trick is to work out who your character is, what their motivations are, and then act that way. There's a whole big endless unwinnable debate about what alignment IS exactly and whether it's descriptive or proscriptive or absolute or relative, but if your DM supports it, Chappy's 'Evil' might just be thoughtlessness or callousness or selfishness, rather than teeth-gnashing and moustache-twirling.

But, seriously, I think establishing and agreeing on a given game's tone and mood and genre conventions is a vitally important step, and one that's almost always completely skipped. It sounds like you just don't want to play a pirate. I suggest addressing that first.

Otherwise, it's like kind of like asking what's the best steak restaurant when you're a vegetarian.

[Joe the Rat]

If you tend to be good, be more selfish - selfish towards acting the interests of your crew rather than in regards to a broader morality (being good), or in your own interests against the party (being a jerk).

You don't have to be cruel, but you do need to be pragmatic. You can also be the moderating voice - suggesting the soft hand to more vicious practices

Some not-too-uncommon piratical practices to promote:

• Taking prisoners for ransom
• Offering crew a chance to join up (not officer-types - they are, if anything, ransomable)
• Take the stuff you want, take the weapons, leave enough food and water that they can get to port
• Kill, not torture

Depending on your issues, you can X-card some of the more depravative practices in plundering and pillaging. It might be a lesser issue if you don't attack towns often (and likely if you are limited to a single ship). You might be able to angle them into more of a heist mindset than a raider mindset.

[Burley]

Some not-too-uncommon piratical practices to promote:

• Taking prisoners for ransom
• Offering crew a chance to join up (not officer-types - they are, if anything, ransomable)
• Take the stuff you want, take the weapons, leave enough food and water that they can get to port
• Kill, not torture

These are great, thanks. I hadn't really thought about ransoming prisoners. Gives me another reason for having Hold Person and Web, instead of damage spells.

[strangebloke]

These are great, thanks. I hadn't really thought about ransoming prisoners. Gives me another reason for having Hold Person and Web, instead of damage spells.

Ransom is great, yeah. There's always someone willing to cough up a dozen gold pieces if it means their beloved/nephew/assistant gets back home safe.

Or alternately get someone to pay you to keep them locked up