Why was there a stigma against fantasy and sci fi themed shows in the early 2010s?

[CmdrShep2183]

I wish we had space adventure on TV during the 2010-2014 time period.



But apparently in 2013 someone hit the "idiot button".


And according to Neil Degrasse Tyson, "We Stopped Dreaming".

There also seemed to be some sort of stigma attached to both sci fi and fantasy sci fi in the early 2010s. People who watched those type of shows were seen as "People who live in basements" but when "Game of Thrones" showed up the stigma around fantasy disappeared overnight but the stigma to shows like "Babylon 5" and "Battlestar Galactica" seems to persist to this day.

Why was there a stigma to fantasy and sci fi themed TV?

[Tyndmyr]

Has there ever *not* been a sci-fi fantasy stigma?

You can find authors griping about the ghettoification of them from back in the seventies, if you like.

To some extent, inexpensive mass market media always faces this. How long were comics considered to be inherently a big goofy? Arguably right up until the MCU. Even now some leftover perception may remain, but surely in the early 90s, comic book films, while still made, were not usually considered the sort of mainstream staple they are today.

Old timey thrillers, detective novels, etc could also be considered the same. And sometimes they were actually pretty rough. Hardy Boys, etc had an era of extremely formulaic writing, and one could easily say that few of them were adding anything new to the world of literature.

Stigmas against certain forms of literature have probably existed for nearly as long as literature itself.

[Imbalance]

I held my own stigmas against those shows when they became too weighed down with drama and political intrigue when what I wanted most was creatures and effects, mystery, and good action and suspense. Closest thing to what I wanted was Grimm. Seems it took the cable exodus to wake up viewers from their "reality" addiction.

[Psyren]

I'm confused by the question, if anything the 2010s was the start of the golden age for the genre. We got a slew of sci-fi and fantasy heavy hitters with massive budgets like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, Westworld, The Expanse, Black Mirror, Stranger Things, Sense8, Legion, and Watchmen all during this period. A lot of mainstream success and household names came out of this era, hell Stranger Things might even have been a big part of D&D's own resurgence among casual players and newcomers.

Now if you're asking why there was a stigma against these shows BEFORE the 2010s, I have several theories on that, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something big from the OP before upending the premise.

[Caledonian]

Has there ever *not* been a sci-fi fantasy stigma?

THIS.

Arguably the mainstream acceptance of science fiction and fantasy is due to the mainstream running out of ideas and desperately stripmining nerd culture for things people will pay money for.

Last night, I was reading an editorial by Robert Silverberg in the 1995 Nebula Awards anthology, in which he pointed out that science fiction was once a very niche market with a small but constant set of readers, which let editors choose what they thought was best. The explosion of SF&F popularity after Star Wars created a mass market with sales numbers, and a tsunami of low-quality material that sold well.

[Imbalance]

I'm confused by the question, if anything the 2010s was the start of the golden age for the genre. We got a slew of sci-fi and fantasy heavy hitters with massive budgets like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, Westworld, The Expanse, Black Mirror, Stranger Things, Sense8, Legion, and Watchmen all during this period. A lot of mainstream success and household names came out of this era, hell Stranger Things might even have been a big part of D&D's own resurgence among casual players and newcomers.

Again, to me, half of those were dramas with fantasy veneer - too human-centric; not weird enough (I'll admit i haven't seen them all, though). The other half were more of the same but also didn't air until the latter half of the decade, where OP did specifically point to the lack of space adventure during the years 2010-14. Stranger Things would be my one highlight from that list.

[Psyren]

Again, to me, half of those were dramas with fantasy veneer - too human-centric; not weird enough (I'll admit i haven't seen them all, though). The other half were more of the same but also didn't air until the latter half of the decade, where OP did specifically point to the lack of space adventure during the years 2010-14. Stranger Things would be my one highlight from that list.

No True Scotsman, and besides, if the OP specifically means Space Opera they should probably edit the title.

[warty goblin]

Space opera is by necessity at this point kinda niche. The usual advantage of SF over fantasy is that it's an at least potential look at the future, but the tropes of space opera are old enough at this point they're already behind the present in a lot of ways. It's just another form of fantasy, but with the traditional SF disadvantages of lots of technobabble and needing to care about, like, purple alien politicians. Fantasy gets around that via the clever gamut of having hot babes with dragons and, thanks to being about kings and nobles, obvious family dynamics to engage with.

And as usual, it's important to remember one's own favored form of nonsense is probably not smarter than somebody else's and you are not a galaxy brain for liking it. Pop culture efluvia is not a mark of moral or intellectual sophistication.

[Tyndmyr]

Again, to me, half of those were dramas with fantasy veneer - too human-centric; not weird enough (I'll admit i haven't seen them all, though). The other half were more of the same but also didn't air until the latter half of the decade, where OP did specifically point to the lack of space adventure during the years 2010-14. Stranger Things would be my one highlight from that list.

Of that list, only The Walking Dead stands out to me as not really fantasy or sci-fi. Zombies are pretty straight horror, and that series lacks any usual trappings of either of those two genres.

Human-centric doesn't make a work stop being fantasy/sci-fi. Almost all stories are about people. Game of Thrones is most definitely fantasy, Westworld is most definitely sci-fi.

Heck, you could even claim the MCU relies on a fair bit of sci-fi. They're comic movies first and foremost, but fantasy/sci fi does feature fairly significantly.

Anyways, in 2010, the top movie at the box office was Avatar. That's, uh, sci-fi. And most definitely in space, it's not super close to modern day. Inception came out the same year, as did a Harry Potter movie, a Shrek movie, and How to Train Your Dragon, all of which are pretty mainstream fantasy selections, and I guess you could maybe count the Twilight movie as fantasy.

That's...literally just from the top ten. Stuff like Clash of Titans, Tron: Legacy and Megamind also came out that same year.

If anything, the stigma of sci-fi and fantasy has mostly died off, and the modern era embraces these things pretty openly.

[Mechalich]

I wish we had space adventure on TV during the 2010-2014 time period.

Why are you asking the same question you asked a year ago? Were those answers not satisfactory?

[Anonymouswizard]

Space opera is by necessity at this point kinda niche. The usual advantage of SF over fantasy is that it's an at least potential look at the future, but the tropes of space opera are old enough at this point they're already behind the present in a lot of ways. It's just another form of fantasy, but with the traditional SF disadvantages of lots of technobabble and needing to care about, like, purple alien politicians. Fantasy gets around that via the clever gamut of having hot babes with dragons and, thanks to being about kings and nobles, obvious family dynamics to engage with.

I mean, literary-wise there's been attempts to do fresher space opera, which does admittedly tend to include meshing 'harder' elements into it. I think something like Revelation Space could work really well on screen, seeing as two of the primary plot elements are a political revolution and poor relationships between colleagues.

Like, there's stuff and ideas that are unfilmable, but I think you can do fresh space opera. But you're not going to be having a dashing hero saving humanity from the evil Galactic Empire, you're likely working on a more personal level and exploring relationships. You can also cut technobabble down a lot, most decent science fiction does so anyway.

Like, I don't think you need to explain more than 'ship accelerates at 1g and can't break lightspeed' for an element like Lighthuggers, which are more like settings anyway.

EDIT: it's the same question as last year because it's the same question as every year. You should have learnt this by now.

[Vahnavoi]

How long were comics considered to be inherently a big goofy? Arguably right up until the MCU.

Comics didn't stop being goofy with MCU, they didn't even get massively more popular. Comic-inspired movies got more popular, but MCU itself is still goofy to the point its lack of self-seriousness is almost a trademark. Other succesful comic-inspired movies are all over the place.

[Psyren]

Of that list, only The Walking Dead stands out to me as not really fantasy or sci-fi. Zombies are pretty straight horror, and that series lacks any usual trappings of either of those two genres.

I counted it because the cause of the outbreak

Spoiler

Show

was a fictional hyper-advanced pathogen that was intended to be used for biowarfare.

Still, you're right, the cause of the outbreak isn't the focus and the show's use of technology regresses pretty rapidly after that point.

Human-centric doesn't make a work stop being fantasy/sci-fi. Almost all stories are about people. Game of Thrones is most definitely fantasy, Westworld is most definitely sci-fi.

Agreed, especially live-action stories where humano-centric stories are necessary.

[Bohandas]

Of that list, only The Walking Dead stands out to me as not really fantasy or sci-fi. Zombies are pretty straight horror, and that series lacks any usual trappings of either of those two genres.

Most horror premises (with the exception of slashers and some forms of body horror and psychological horror) require a science-fiction or fantasy element. Zombies for example, generally result either from a science-fiction source - such as a zombie virus, or weird rays from venus, or some experimental military chemical - or else from a fantasy source - such as a necromancer, or the grim reaper being furloughed because of divine politics, or the gates of the underworld being smashed, or there not being any more room left in Hell.

[Mokèlé-mbèmbé]

But apparently in 2013 someone hit the "idiot button".

Because they don't like the same things you do? Not sure I vibe with that.

Love, Mok.

[KorvinStarmast]

Arguably the mainstream acceptance of science fiction and fantasy is due to the mainstream running out of ideas and desperately stripmining nerd culture for things people will pay money for.

The first Iron Man movie was enjoyable, for me. As was the first Fantastic Four movie. Those were some of the comics I read/enjoyed in the late 60's and early 70's.

The explosion of SF&F popularity after Star Wars created a mass market with sales numbers, and a tsunami of low-quality material that sold well.

Silverburg has edited a number of SF&F anthologies, has he not? I think I need to read that article.

Fantasy gets around that via the clever gamut of having hot babes with dragons and, thanks to being about kings and nobles, obvious family dynamics to engage with.

If only they could have had Evangeline Lilly riding on the back of Smaug during The Hobbit {heck, they abused that story so badly anyway, why not one more?}

Pop culture efluvia is not a mark of moral or intellectual sophistication.

Maybe that needs to be a t-shirt.

Why are you asking the same question you asked a year ago? Were those answers not satisfactory?

Apparently not.

[Anonymouswizard]

Seven years and counting.

But yeah, I think we covered this in the past few threads.