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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Eldan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    No, I don't think that makes any sense. Planes are expensive compared to individual humans. Wizards are not inherently so expensive compared to humans. A low level wizards, especially level 1, isn't that expensive at all really. Also note that modern planes have tended toward higher tech and greater cost; the plane to serviceman ratio may have been different in earlier eras.

    A better point of comparison for arcane casters would be the heavier equipped modern infantry; ie the ones that have mortars, bazookas, anti-X missiles. Also the field artillery.
    They are quite expensive to train.
    Consider: a first level fighter is expected as their starting equipment to have scale mail (50 GP), a longbow (75 GP) and a greatsword (50 GP), plus assorted small stuff. Let's call it 200 GP.

    A wizard? A blank spellbook is 15 GP and a component pouch 5, but they also scribe every spell in there. But they also have to scribe all their spells. That's thousands of GP.

    I think that's a reasonable approximation for training costs. You can get 5-10 fighters for the cost of one wizard. Now sorcerers and clerics, those are cheap for the power output. You want magical bloodline breeding programs and free religious education.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2022-05-20 at 08:28 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    If we look at Pathfinder, training individuals up to high level can be fairly low-risk. No method of resurrection in Pathfinder results in permanent level loss, so you can always use the cheapest method available... except Reincarnate, which is just a crappy thing to do to anyone in any system. "Bob, I know you're used to seeing a human when you look in the mirror, but you're an orc lady now. Hope that doesn't up-end your life too badly."

    Anyway, the cheapest form of resurrection is an 18th-level Witch using the Death Interrupted Grand Hex. If you've got one of those around, they can resurrect people for free, subject only to the limitation that any given individual can only be resurrected once per day. Well, okay, there's the "some small portion of the creature’s body must still exist" limitation and the "soul must be free and willing to return" limitation. But those usually aren't going to be a problem.

    You could have your trainees engage in daily battle royales to the death, and you wouldn't actually lose anyone permanently. It would be great practice for them, and great entertainment for everyone else.



    On the subject of training costs, Pathfinder opens up a few more low-cost casters. Witches are Intelligence-based casters who store spells in their familiars instead of a spellbook. It's free for the familiar to gain new spells, you just need another witch's familiar that already knows it. No cost except time, and the Witches doesn't even actually need to be around during that time. It's just the familiars who need to take the time.

    On the Charisma side, Pathfinder has archetypes for Cleric, Druid, and Witch that use Charisma as a casting stat. The Cleric archetype requires worshiping an Elder God and being either Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral, so you probably shouldn't train a society full of those guys. But Druids and Witches are still good, low-cost options. Probably lean more towards Druid, for less overlap with your Intelligence-based casters, but you'll have some non-Neutral people who can't be Druids and will need to be Cha-based Witches instead.

    On the Wisdom side of things, there's Cleric, Druid, and Shaman. I'm partial to Shaman, since Clerics can get a little pushy about their views and Druid would overlap with your Cha-based characters. … Actually, Druids can be pushy about their view too. All the more reason to avoid them. … Well, maybe Urban Druids? No, then they'll just start advocating for the wellbeing of the rats that live in the streets.

    You know what? Forget the Druids on the Charisma side too. The classes should be regular Witch, Cha-based Witch, and Shaman. Hexes for everyone! The Shamans know their entire spell list, because they're divine casters, and the Witches can trade spells with each other for no GP cost. Affordable spellcaster training across the board. … And no one with any pesky "beliefs."



    Edit: For some reason, I thought Pathfinder had eliminated the GP cost of obtaining and replacing a Familiar. It looks like they only eliminated the one year waiting period, and the cost of obtaining it the first time. Though the elimination of the initial GP expenditure might just be like the free spellbook, a handwaving of a GP expenditure the character is assumed to have made with no effect on the player.

    Well then, since none of the Witch archetypes that replace the Familiar with something else say they alter the cost, I guess those are all in the same boat. That only leaves Ley Line Guardian as a Witch archetype that doesn't have to worry about GP costs. Sadly, they're spontaneous casters, but what can you do? At least they don't have the lore of Pathfinder Sorcerers, saying they need to be born to special bloodlines, nor the lore of Oracles, saying they need to be specially chosen by deities.

    Well, if spontaneous casters have to be part of the answer, I guess I should consider Psychic too. That leaves us at:
    • Int: Psychic
    • Wis: Shaman
    • Cha: Ley Line Guardian Seducer Witch



    Edit Edit: Oh right. Default Shaman needs a Familiar to prepare spells too. You need Speaker for the Past to free yourself from that.
    Last edited by Maat Mons; 2022-05-20 at 12:04 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    I tried to spec out a hunter-killer squad yesterday based on more modern tactics. The resulting squad has a role more like classical cavalry than classical infantry, even having a dedicated mounted charger in an assault role.

    I ended up questioning whether one arcane caster per squad was enough. The squad wizard has five different roles (critical buffs, illusion support, BFC, long range communication, and Floating Disk donor for logistics and squad mobility) and three of those can only reasonably be handled by other arcane casters.

    The squad druid is also responsible for some of the BFC (and three other things) and there are other workarounds for communication. But the arcane-only buffs, illusions and Floating Disks can't be replaced. The squad is greatly weakened if either of the full casters are replaced - it simply cannot do all the tasks that circumstances in the field might demand of it.

    Minor arcane utility spells and animal companions are both important enough to the unit's broader function that it's almost required to use a ranger in one of the kill role slots over other classes that enable archery specialists. Of course, another full-caster can do that job instead.

    So that's a minimum of two arcane casters, and two full-casters, per independent team.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2022-05-30 at 08:27 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I ended up questioning whether one arcane caster per squad was enough. The squad wizard has five different roles (critical buffs, illusion support, BFC, long range communication, and Floating Disk donor for logistics and squad mobility) and three of those can only reasonably be handled by other arcane casters.

    The squad druid is also responsible for some of the BFC (and three other things) and there are other workarounds for communication. But the arcane-only buffs, illusions and Floating Disks can't be replaced. The squad is greatly weakened if either of the full casters are replaced - it simply cannot do all the tasks that circumstances in the field might demand of it.
    Floating Disc seems like a bit of a liability in this case:
    It floats along horizontally within spell range and will accompany you at a rate of no more than your normal speed each round.
    [...]
    The disk also winks out if you move beyond range [25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels]
    Also, a 3ft disc that can carry 800 pounds (for an 8th-level caster) and needs to have its goods moved over every 8 hours seems less useful than just having, well, a supply carriage. Two heavy horses have a medium load of 800 pounds, and at 50ft base speed they'll still move faster than the Disk... in addition to being able to bring more than one barrel of foodstuff.

    The Floating Disk is most useful in places where you can't just bring a horse and cart, e.g. dungeons, but in a war scenario I feel like it makes more sense to just leave the supplies to the supply caravan?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    OK I can speak to the floating disk problem. My TK-based Sorceress started her career with that as her first L1 pick and played it to 16 levels, including military scenarios.

    What it can do: It can move at light warhorse overland speeds (which is the same as 30' movement speed hustle) as if on perfect roads, assuming the caster can somehow go that quickly. It can do it over water, swamps, inclines, rough terrain, whatever, basically anything a vehicle with really good shocks and a 3' ground clearance could do, which is most anything except a cliff, if the caster can manage it. If your base land speed is faster or slower than 30' that will affect your mobility as it can only keep up with your base land speed. So a gnome casting the spell only has riding-dog overland speed levels.

    What it can do without support for military: The most effective way I found to use the weight limit was to have fully equipped soldiers sit on the disk, in a ring, with any heavy gear in the well between them. Usually they could work something out with rope or backpacks or something, but basically each disc could move several soldiers (about level 8, she moved a platoon across a swamp, just by burning enough spell slots (3 soldiers per disk, 14 discs, 40 soldiers and 2 officers) and then casting Phantom Steed and going slowly enough to not pop the disc).

    What it can do if you have a good carpenter and maybe a cart. Or Fabricate. My sorcereress owned a light warhorse and a cart (you have to put those size large greataxes to toss with telekenesis somewhere and until she had a chest of holding, no extra-D space she could get could manage size or sharpness, although she had to switch to greatswords for the chest to work).

    What you do is cast a disk under the axle of each wheel (4 discs, usually, 3 if you have a two-wheeled cart, the third you put under the front near the kingpin you'd usually attach to a horse or ox or something), and raise it to the full 3' height. Now have a floating cart, perfect for piling its entire weight limit of stuff or people or whatever. Ride your horse in front of it maybe with purely cosmetic "harness" and closer to the ground if you don't want to scare the natives. Or just go with phantom steed and raise two middle fingers to the ignorant peasants as your cart floats serenely 3' over every surface.

    I could move arbitrarily large amounts of stuff with this technique, although since I owned only one cart I'd have to purchase (or ask a wizard with fabricate to manufacture or similar) extras as needed. You can do a cruder version with just a raft of some kind that works nearly as well, it just isn't as well suited to carrying equipment without any tipping off, or being more subtle about what you are doing. On some adventures I actually would buy a small boat and do the same thing, although you really do need a carpenter to fit the discs on the load-bearing keel without having it tip. Carts are easier, they're designed for weight to land on the axle near the wheels. It is worth the extra effort on a boat though if your disks go away while over water--or might. Levitate is a really handy spell for if something like this happens, because if a raft or boat is on the surface you can't get a disc under it the way you can with a cart on land.

    Part of why this works is you can control the disks, including height over the ground. The key though is to never outrun your disks with a faster mount, or by teleporting too far from it or whatever or your carts etc go crashing to the ground (another reason to go for minimal clearance where terrain permits, it is less hard on the cart and contents if the disks are suddenly dispelled or go "poof" if some stupid Vrock TK-violent-thrusts you AND your size large greataxes away from your discs....yes I may have lost a little sleep over the hazards of other telekenetics at times....)

    Finally if you have a good craftsperson in the party you can actually build some kind of container that the disk fits into mechanically and can hold a lot of volume vertically (think a giant cone, with bottom anchored mechanically on the disk, which is slid in sideways, then something screwed down on the shallow depression to hold it all in place). This can let you transport all kinds of things that aren't soldiers using only 1 disc, and if you use a relatively light but strong material you get most of the benefit of the lifting capacity of that disc. Honestly though, I usually used servant hordes for that purpose instead of a single disc when I lacked a cart, and accepted the slower overland speed.

    Two heavy horses have a medium load of 800 pounds, and at 50ft base speed they'll still move faster than the Disk... in addition to being able to bring more than one barrel of foodstuff.
    Two heavy horses need food and water for every day they're active. Not a problem if you have goodberry or Hero Feast or something, but for a normal military it's a real constraint that gives diminishing returns when crossing anywhere without ample water available in the terrain and a lot of high quality grazing (grass won't do it alone with heavy exertion over time)

    Also 50' base speed is not faster than a 30' tenser's disk over time. The disc doesn't get tired, so it can hustle forever, where going more than 25' per move action will fatigue and eventually kill your heavy warhorses.

    Using Mount+Tenser's disks (assuming a not-very-heavy spellcaster) you can achieve 60' overland speed with no weight devoted to food or water and you can do it over any terrain a horse can navigate (you can hustle the horse to keep speed up when it is 3/4 or half speed due to terrain and so what if force march damages it? Summon another with your pearl of power 1 or extra sorcerer slot when it dies. Or if you have a druid traveler mount+easy trail will make that light horse fast enough to keep that 60' overland speed regardless of terrain most of the time).

    A tenser's disk baggage train moves at "pony express" speeds or at least "light infantry on forced march "speeds. It is significantly better, but does burn spell slot resources. When I did this sort of thing in actual play, my sorcereress still had all her L3-4 spells to fight the actual battle with, burning L1-2 slots to bring her army along with her (I count her phantom steed as a combat spell she'd have in a battle anyway, it is a valuable tactical tool). Quote from GM in actual battle after 2 black tentacles messed up most of his archers.... "How many of those damn Black Tentacles do you have" "Two more..."

    I brought the dwarf heavy infantry. The lighter troops made it to the battle the hard way.
    Last edited by Seward; 2022-05-31 at 11:33 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini476 View Post
    The Floating Disk is most useful in places where you can't just bring a horse and cart, e.g. dungeons, but in a war scenario I feel like it makes more sense to just leave the supplies to the supply caravan?
    I should amend my statement about squad mobility. The squad wizard's job is to make sure the squad as a whole remains mobile even in bad terrain. Floating discs do that. In cases where it's preferable to have everyone mounted, the wizard can summon extra mounts instead. The duty can also include more exotic or higher level spells if the squad's prepared to cross particularly challenging terrain or is simply a high enough level to spare the slots.

    The squad druid also contributes with Longstrider castings.

    The floating discs do have the drawback that they can't easily transport the mounted charger's mount, which is usually better in combat than a summoned one. This was an oversight on my part.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post

    The squad druid also contributes with Longstrider castings.
    Actually Traveler's Mount. Longstrider only works on you or your animal companion.
    Also Easy Trail. In conjunction with traveler's mount you get a serious mobility boost for mounted troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The floating discs do have the drawback that they can't easily transport the mounted charger's mount, which is usually better in combat than a summoned one. This was an oversight on my part.
    This is the kind of thing rafts supported by disks are best for. Once (and only once) we tried to do it with 4 discs. Probably be ok with a Paladin Mount or animal companion but lets just say when the rider failed handle animal halfway across the river it....well lets just say that was just a bad idea.

    Although it would have worked if I had been high enough level that one disc could have handled over half of the mount's weight. The problem was it shifted weight and exceeded weight limit for one of my disks and it went downhill (literally) quickly. Horses are freaking heavy, they can exceed 100lb/lvl by quite a lot. The answer to that problem is dimension door if it is just something like a river, or water walk/air walk for longer distances.
    Last edited by Seward; 2022-05-31 at 08:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    It looks like I messed up some of the details. Do they undermine the point, though?

    The hunter-killer team executes a mission with the following steps:
    1. Locate a target
    2. Get the whole squad in position to attack the target
    3. Isolate the target
    4. Kill the target
    5. Get away

    They do this on two scales, one on which the target is a group (like a patrol or an adventuring party) and one on which the target is a specific member of that group (like the patrol's courier or the party cleric), although at both scales the third and fifth steps might be carried out by killing enemies other than the target.

    The non-casting members of the squad contribute...
    ...to the first, only at small scale,
    ...to the second, little beyond the liability of needing to position an extra person,
    ...to the third, mostly at the expense of the fourth by attacking targets other than the main one,
    ...to the fourth, as their main contribution they dedicate most of their build to, and
    ...to the fifth only to the extent that escape involves killing more targets, otherwise they are a liability.

    If you have any suggestions for doing these mundanely, particularly at the large scale, I'd like to hear them. As spec'd now, though, the scouting is mostly done by divination and animal companions, the mobility uses mounts but needs magic to fill in for mounts' weaknesses, BFC spells are by far the best way to pick apart groups, and BFC spells and speed buffs are also the tools of choice for helping the mundane or slower members escape a bad situation, particularly since the enemy can kill the mounts.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2022-06-01 at 10:03 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    It looks like I messed up some of the details. Do they undermine the point, though? ...
    Sorry I don't think you have given nearly enough information about the assumptions you are making for your hunter-killer squad, namely what ECL we are talking about, how many members are in the squad, and how much wealth we have to build said squad. Without any of that information your arguments are pretty moot.
    For example for a group lower level than ECL 8 Floating Disk is not an effective use of your spell resources and therefore wouldn't be used most of the time. Furthermore, below ECL 8 the casters' role whether arcane or divine would optimally focus on buffing and bfc so outside of steps 3 and 4 mundane resources can be leveraged better than caster resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    No, I don't think that makes any sense. Planes are expensive compared to individual humans. Wizards are not inherently so expensive compared to humans. A low level wizards, especially level 1, isn't that expensive at all really. Also note that modern planes have tended toward higher tech and greater cost; the plane to serviceman ratio may have been different in earlier eras.

    A better point of comparison for arcane casters would be the heavier equipped modern infantry; ie the ones that have mortars, bazookas, anti-X missiles. Also the field artillery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    They are quite expensive to train.
    Consider: a first level fighter is expected as their starting equipment to have scale mail (50 GP), a longbow (75 GP) and a greatsword (50 GP), plus assorted small stuff. Let's call it 200 GP.

    A wizard? A blank spellbook is 15 GP and a component pouch 5, but they also scribe every spell in there. But they also have to scribe all their spells. That's thousands of GP.

    I think that's a reasonable approximation for training costs. You can get 5-10 fighters for the cost of one wizard. Now sorcerers and clerics, those are cheap for the power output. You want magical bloodline breeding programs and free religious education.
    I have looked at the 'price' of a level 1 wizard's spellbook before, there are 19 level 0 spells in PHB or if we look at all books 64 then 3-11 first level spells depending on int (11-18) and whether the wizard has Collegiate Wizard feat or not. so min we are looking at 2,200gp to 7,500gp for a level 1 wizard's spell book. So if we looked at a wizard from a cost prospective for the military a level 1 wizard is about the same as a 3-5th level mundane.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Spellbook cost was one reason I had Legion spellbooks be standardized and shared. Scribing cost is halved to copy it, and until you get a bit more WBL, you maybe have one spellbook at the platoon level that is shared, they prep at different times during the day.

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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Maybe slightly off topic, for this thread, but I've been giving some though to pools of potential recruits if Pathfinder settings.

    Spoiler: Pathfinder Caster Demographics
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    Suppose 15+ in a mental ability score is considered the threshold for being deemed a good candidate for training as a spellcaster. This is the minimum needed to access spells on time without magical ability score boosts or aging.



    Basic Array
    Presumably, most NPCs have the Basic Array of ability scores (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8).

    Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc (+2 any score races)
    50% chance highest pre-mod score (13) falls in mental ability
    1 in 6 chance human +2 falls on highest pre-mod score (13, boosted to 15)
    1 in 12 chance of having a post-mod 15 in a mental score
    ~8.33% of basic array Humans are good candidates for spellcaster training
    equally split between Int/Wis/Cha-class candidates
    Int-casters: ~2.78%
    Wis-casters: ~2.78%
    Cha-casters: ~2.78%

    Elf (+2 Int race)
    1 in 6 chance pre-mod 13 falls on Int and gets boosted to 15
    ~16.67% of basic array Elves are good candidates for spellcaster training
    none of them are good candidates for Wis/Cha classes
    Int-casters: ~16.67%
    Wis-casters: 0%
    Cha-casters: 0%

    Dwarf (+2 Wis race)
    1 in 6 chance pre-mod 13 falls on Wis and gets boosted to 15
    ~16.67% of basic array Dwarves are good candidates for spellcaster training
    none of them are good candidates for Int/Cha classes
    Int-casters: 0%
    Wis-casters: ~16.67%
    Cha-casters: 0%

    Gnome/Goblin/Halfling (+2 Cha races)
    1 in 6 chance pre-mod 13 falls on Cha and gets boosted to 15
    ~16.67% of basic array Gnomes/Goblins/Halflings are good candidates for spellcaster training
    none of them are good candidates for Int/Wis classes
    Int-casters: 0%
    Wis-casters: 0%
    Cha-casters: ~16.67%



    Heroic Array
    Some NPCs, it’s unclear how many, have the Heroic Array of ability scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

    Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc (+2 any score races)
    50% chance highest pre-mod score (15) falls in mental ability (don’t need racial +2)
    if 15 lands in physical ability, 3 in 5 chance 14 lands in mental ability (at least 1 chance for +2 to line up)
    if 15 lands in physical and 14 in mental, 2 in 4 chance 13 lands in mental (2 chances for +2 to line up) and 2 in 4 chance it lands in physical (1 chance for +2 to line up)
    if both 15 and 14 land in physical ability, 3 in 4 chance 13 lands in mental (1 chance for +2 to line up)
    1/2 + 1/2 * (3/5 * (2/4 * 2/6 + 2/4 * 1/6) + 2/5 * 3/4 * 1/6) = 60% of heroic array Humans/Half-Elves/Half-Orcs are good candidates for spellcaster training
    in retrospect, there were easier ways of calculating that
    Int-casters: ~22.22%
    Wis-casters: ~22.22%
    Cha-casters: ~22.22%
    note that some individuals are good candidates for two different types of caster training

    Elf (+2 Int)
    similar to Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc, but 13 or 14 in mental score has 1 in 3 chance of lining up with +2 Int, not 1 in 6 chance of lining up with +2 any
    that is, there is no chance racial +2 was wasted on physical score
    1/2 + 1/2 * (3/5 * (2/4 * 2/3 + 2/4 *1/3) + 2/5 * 3/4 * 1/3) = 70% of heroic array Elves are good candidates for spellcaster training
    alternately, there’s a 50% chance that either 15, 14, or 13 lands on Int and in the 50% of cases where none of them do, there’s a 40% chance that the 15 will land on Wis or Cha
    by either method, 70%
    Int-casters: 50%
    Wis-casters: ~16.67%
    Cha-casters: ~16.67%

    Dwarf (+2 Wis race)
    70% good candidates
    Int-casters: ~16.67%
    Wis-casters: 50%
    Cha-casters: ~16.67%

    Gnome/Goblin/Halfling (+2 Cha races)
    70% good candidates
    Int-casters: ~16.67%
    Wis-casters: ~16.67%
    Cha-casters: 50%

    Hobgoblin/Kobold (races with no mental bonuses or penalties)
    50% good candidates
    Int-casters: ~16.67%
    Wis-casters: ~16.67%
    Cha-casters: ~16.67%

    Ogre (-2 Int, -2 Cha race)
    Wis-casters: ~16.67%
    Other: 0%

    Orc
    Scarred Witch Doctor: ~16.67%
    Other: 0%




    Back on 3.5, if the total amount of money the kingdom is spending on it's numerous military Wizards is a major burden, or if whatever it is that these "special inks" are made from is in short supply, there are some options for making cheaper spellbooks.

    At ECL 8, a Geometer can add any spell to a spellbook for only 100 gp, regardless of level. And the Arcane Shorthand feat from Dragon 358 can cut that down to 50 gp. If you have some Geometers churning out spellbooks for all your other Wizards, you can save a lot of money outfitting your higher-level squads. The savings aren't anywhere near as large for the lower-level Wizards, but you can use some of the budget you free up from the high-level squads to help out with them.

    Though it's always seemed strange to me that you can't cut pages out of a Blessed Book and rebind them into a smaller book. Or just craft a smaller version to start with. If you're self-crafting, it's 6,250 gp for a 1,000-page book. That's 6.25 gp per page. And with the above combo making each spell take up only half a page, regardless of level, that's 3.125 gp per spell.

    So, when done efficiently, all the spells known by a 1st-level Gray Elf Collegiate Elven Generalist Wizard can be written for 237.5 gp. That's less than a suit of banded mail, and not much more than a breastplate or suit of splint mail.

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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by Seward View Post
    Spellbook cost was one reason I had Legion spellbooks be standardized and shared. Scribing cost is halved to copy it, and until you get a bit more WBL, you maybe have one spellbook at the platoon level that is shared, they prep at different times during the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Back on 3.5, if the total amount of money the kingdom is spending on it's numerous military Wizards is a major burden, or if whatever it is that these "special inks" are made from is in short supply, there are some options for making cheaper spellbooks.

    At ECL 8, a Geometer can add any spell to a spellbook for only 100 gp, regardless of level. And the Arcane Shorthand feat from Dragon 358 can cut that down to 50 gp. If you have some Geometers churning out spellbooks for all your other Wizards, you can save a lot of money outfitting your higher-level squads. The savings aren't anywhere near as large for the lower-level Wizards, but you can use some of the budget you free up from the high-level squads to help out with them.

    Though it's always seemed strange to me that you can't cut pages out of a Blessed Book and rebind them into a smaller book. Or just craft a smaller version to start with. If you're self-crafting, it's 6,250 gp for a 1,000-page book. That's 6.25 gp per page. And with the above combo making each spell take up only half a page, regardless of level, that's 3.125 gp per spell.

    So, when done efficiently, all the spells known by a 1st-level Gray Elf Collegiate Elven Generalist Wizard can be written for 237.5 gp. That's less than a suit of banded mail, and not much more than a breastplate or suit of splint mail.
    Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks A quick read of the borrowed spell book rules shuts down sharing spellbooks or having someone else make you a spellbook as a way to cut cost. You can only use a spell in a borrowed spellbook that you already 'know' and you only know spells you have entered into your own spellbook.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Complete Arcane has rules for Mastering a Foreign Spellbook on page 140. It lets you "use the foreign spellbook as your own." Though low-level characters will need magical aid to consistently hit the DC.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Sorry I don't think you have given nearly enough information about the assumptions you are making for your hunter-killer squad, namely what ECL we are talking about, how many members are in the squad, and how much wealth we have to build said squad. Without any of that information your arguments are pretty moot.
    For example for a group lower level than ECL 8 Floating Disk is not an effective use of your spell resources and therefore wouldn't be used most of the time. Furthermore, below ECL 8 the casters' role whether arcane or divine would optimally focus on buffing and bfc so outside of steps 3 and 4 mundane resources can be leveraged better than caster resources.
    The assumptions vary based on whether I'm dictating the army's official policy or GMing a combat encounter. Here are the basic ones.

    The army's assumed to have only limited access to each class - it can't simply declare that every HK squad is 5 druids and a wizard without running out of druids or severely limiting how many squads it can deploy. This limit is externally imposed - the general simply receives an army's worth of soldiers, with varying classes and levels but mostly single-classed, based on someone else's recruiting success. That said, the general considers the HK squads to be a fairly high priority for its overall spell slot expenditure on days when pitched battles seem unlikely. Also, some build choices like feats and trained skills can be standardized across a specialist subset of those holding a given class.

    HK squads are each assigned a wide area to hunt in, at least two miles across. A single squad is expected to spend several days in the field at a time.

    Adventuring-party-like detachments (Parties) are assumed to be in common use by the other side for various reasons. The HK squads can do some of the things that Parties do. But they specialize in finding and crippling or killing enemy Parties as well as things like messengers or lone scouts. The squads must also alert the main army to very large enemy movements.

    An HK squad that thinks it's outmatched can call for reinforcements before the fight, so long as it has the actual ability to both communicate and delay the fight. A large target (10+ enemies in a group) might have several HK squads converge on it and attack at once. However, the enemy is also assumed to be able to call for help.

    Soldiers first qualify for this relatively elite duty at level 4, dictated by the utility of Ranger class features. Soldiers trained for HK squads keep their roles as they level up. So HK squads vary in level from 4 to about 8 or 9, after which intensive use of divinations changes the game entirely.
    - As general, this often involves using higher level mundanes to mentor minimum-level casters, and vice versa. But it also means there are strong and weak HK squads in the field at the same time.
    - As GM, this means tailoring the HK squad encounter to the desired CR. It's more convenient to have everyone be the same level, but it's more challenge-efficient to tune the level of each squad member. Laziness means I'd reuse the same statblocks across several encounters - an elite member of a low level HK squad eventually becomes a regular member of a higher-level one.

    These are the overall constraints I'm imposing. Tactics are downstream of these assumptions, subject to the general's judgment. For example, as designed HK squads typically have 6 members to slightly outnumber a typical Party. This is a practical limit based on the casters' limited buffs, but changing the tactics might allow larger squads.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2022-06-02 at 02:54 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Complete Arcane has rules for Mastering a Foreign Spellbook on page 140. It lets you "use the foreign spellbook as your own." Though low-level characters will need magical aid to consistently hit the DC.
    It is a lot easier to make the "take 10" every day to decipher the spell to memorize for one day. You only need to master it if you don't want to have to roll. But yeah, eventually it is expected that the army will master it, getting a guidance+fox cunning or whatever to help the process along.

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    Default Re: Thought experiment: how many arcane spellcasters in a fantasy combined arms army

    Note that while DMG p.54 says tho "subtract the value of a spellbook and material components from the average treasure value before you start rolling up treasure", the sample 5th-level NPC Wizard on page 125 has the following loadout:

    Spellbook:
    0—daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, ray of frost, read magic;
    1st—color spray, identify, mage armor, magic missile, magic weapon;
    2nd—blur, bear’s endurance, glitterdust, knock, Melf’s acid arrow, resist energy;
    3rd—dispel magic, fireball, haste, magic circle against good.

    Possessions: Bracers of armor +1, rapier, masterwork hand crossbow, 10 bolts, cloak of resistance +1, potion of blur, potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of cure serious wounds, potion of haste, scroll of confusion, 2 scrolls of fireball, scroll of web, dagger.
    The budget, for reference, is 4,300 gp for a 5th-level NPC.
    Spoiler: maffs
    Show
    0th level spells: 7 pages = 700 gp
    Other spells: 5 + 6x2 + 4x3 = 29 pages = 2,900 gp
    Possession: 1,000 + 20 + 400 + 1000 + 2 = 2,422 gp
    Consumables: 1 + 300 + 300 + 750 + 700 + 2x375 + 150 = 2,951

    Grand total: 8,973 gp, or over budget by 4,673 gp.
    (Even what PCs can sell it for, 4,486 gp, is over budget. For it to be below budget, the wizard would not only have to not have their spellbook with them, but they'd have to use half their consumable magic items in the battle.)


    When it comes to actually funding these wizards, however, keep in mind PHB p.179:
    Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. She simply adds these to her spellbook as part of her ongoing research.
    Outfitting a wizard does not cost notably more than outfitting a fighter.

    However, Goods & Services definitely implies that hiring one is more costly - a fifth-level Warrior will work for 15 silver pieces/day while a fifth-level Wizard will take one hundred times that per fireball. While a Fighter will probably take more money than 1.5gp/day, I'm not sure that it'd be the 500+ gp/day you'd expect from a Wizard in active duty.

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