Barbarian ASIs are for feats

[strangebloke]

Most people seem to believe that either strength or constitution is their barbarian's primary ability score, and that for this reason you want to quickly max one or the other, maybe taking GWM and/or PAM for damage.

But I'm going to argue that when choosing to max Constitution or Strength first, you should choose neither. In fact, I'll further argue that Barbarian is one of the better classes in the game to play as a '14 man.' that is to say, a character who uses point buy to have good average stats rather than minmaxing to have a couple really high stats and a couple really low stats. A barbarian almost never wants to use an ASI for... ability score improvement. They almost always want to get a feat. Here is why.

Barbarians Already Have Big Numbers.

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Dex saves, initiative rolls, attack rolls, strength checks. What do all these have in common? A 7th level barbarian has advantage on all of them. Barbarians also have the largest hit dice, a d12, ensuring they have lots of HP, resistance to the most common types of damage, and rage bonus damage which isn't contingent on their ability score. They also can use big weapons with big base damage die, and most(all?) subclasses further boost HP and Damage.

What this means is that the value of +1 to any of these numbers is proportionally small, especially as barbarians generally have few attacks. Lets do a simple comparison. A level 5 barbarian and monk against AC 14, giving them 16 and 18 in their main offensive stats, respectively. Monk is flurrying, barbarian is raging and using reckless.

Monk
16 DEX: [(1d8+3)*2 +(1d6+3)*2]*0.65=18.2
18 DEX: [(1d8+4)*2 +(1d6+4)*2]*0.70=22.4
Barb
16 STR: [(2d6+3+2)*2]*~0.88=21.2
18 STR: [(2d6+4+2)*2]*0.91=23.6

So whichever way you count it, the monk gains almost twice the bonus the barbarian gets from a +1. The Barbarian is already hyper-accurate and high damage by default, he doesn't need a +1. In both absolute and proportional terms, the barbarian gets way more from GWM or PAM than they do from a feat. And yeah, even if they have GWM and PAM already?

GWM/PAM Barb
16 STR: [(1d10+3+2+10)*3+(1d4+3+2+10)]*0.64=50.6
18 STR: [(1d10+4+2+10)*3+(1d4+4+2+10)]*0.70=58.1

that's an increase of 7.5, or a 15% increase. It's proportionally less than the monk, which got a 22% increase. Now its still a big number in absolute terms, but what I'm saying is, for a barbarian feats have a far larger impact on damage than ASIs do, and even if you have all the feats you want, its still proportionally offering you less than other classes. Also, its worth pointing out that there are other means of improving your damage besides ASIs.

As for defenses, again, a +1 to CON proportionally increases a Barbarian's survivability by little. 14 vs. 15 health is not that big of a deal; certainly not as much as 7 vs. 8. AC is even worse. Your AC with 14 DEX gets you 16/17 AC with armor, you need at least 16 CON and 16 DEX to replicate that without armor. That's a massive amount of investment for a very marginal benefit. And you're attacking recklessly anyway, so who cares! Go in with 14 AC!

There are other ways of getting health and damage

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So, you invest one of your precious ASIs (you'll likely only get three all campaign) into CON. This gives +1 HP per level. If you're level 5, that's 5 HP. Nice.

Alternately, the cleric could use one(1) of their three(3) 2nd level slots for the day, cast aid and bring up three party members by 5 HP. That's... a lot better? More efficient? Alternately the bard uses inspiring leader, granting 9 THP every time you rest, for a total of 27 THP to the whole party over the course of the day. Or you could let the party life cleric heal the whole party for 30 health in one burst. Or you could let the bard's song of rest save you dozens of hp for no real cost.

Or the druid sumons like 5 billion HP worth of giant snakes.

HP is cheap in 5e. There's no reason to fret over trying to get 5% more HP per level, let the support classes handle this.

Damage is cheap too. What are you doing, fretting over +2.1 DPR per turn when you could just randomly pick up a flametongue greatsword that gives you like +13 DPR? Or get bless cast on you. Or Holy Weapon. And this is aside from the fact that, as I already mentioned, there are at least 2 feats that are strictly better than ASIs for DPR anyway (and realistically other feats like Sentinel are up there too)

Barbarians Lack Utility

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This is... look, I don't think I need to present an argument here. Barbarians, as a class, don't do much other than damage. They can "tank" in the sense of taking hits, though reckless makes them survive a lot less time than you'd think. They have high strength, which makes them marginally more accomplished at grappling (though again, rage does most the work here by giving them advantage) Some subclasses like Ancestral Guardian switch things up a bit...

But overall, they get very little utility. They don't get things to do outside of combat, and in combat they're very dependent on being able to get into melee, and once they're in melee, all they do is whack things. It's a bit boring, and as I argue above, there are more efficient ways of improving your output with this gameplan than investing ASIs

So what's the solution?

Use ASIs for literally anything else. Grab skill expert: stealth and make your big guy an expert scout. Observant to avoid surprise. Inspiring leader to give you and everyone else in the party loads of free THP. You'll rarely lose a fight because the barbarian is dealing 7.5 less DPR, you will lose a fight because the party got surprised.

Barbarians have glaring weaknesses that need to be patched

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The Barbarian class gets

• no mental save proficiencies
• has no class features that benefit from mental stats
• has class features that benefit from every physical stat.
• is completely centered around a class feature (rage) that completely gets turned off the instant you fail a save vs. a fear or charm effect.

This leads to barbarians getting made as 20/16/16/8/8/8 meatheads that will turn on the party faster than a succubus can wink, or get whammied by an illithid in the first round and do nothing. That's terrible! That's super weak! You really live like this? You really... brag about your character's toughness? Conan would be rolling in his grave if he knew how weak to sorcery your barbarians were!

No! Don't do that! Embrace that 16 STR is all a barbarian really needs, that 16 DEX is silly and 16 CON is overkill. Show up with a 16/14/14/10/14/10 Zealot who took Lucky and Resilient:Wisdom and can reroll saves for days and throw off any magic that gets cast his way. Your damage might drop by 10% (GASP) but your damage will drop by 100% if you fail a saving throw to hold person. Again, HP and damage can come from many sources, but mental defenses more or less need to come from your feats and ASIs.

TL;DR

Do whatever you want. But your barbarian almost strictly gets more by spending ASIs on things other than +STR and +CON. There are so many feats that are better than +STR or +CON, to the point that I seriously can barely imagine maxing strength as a barbarian.

[LordShade]

Great post.

Yet somehow, not maxing Str on a barbarian still feels wrong. Even though practically nobody gets there, having a 26 Strength at level 20 with a tome seems too awesome to pass up.

[strangebloke]

Great post.

Yet somehow, not maxing Str on a barbarian still feels wrong. Even though practically nobody gets there, having a 26 Strength at level 20 with a tome seems too awesome to pass up.

I understand this sentiment, but magic items make the +STR investment so much worse. You get GWM, You get PAM, you get +STR at level 8 and then... gauntlets of ogre power drop into the party's lap. Cleric goes "guess I'll take them if nobody else wants 'em."

You reconsider your life choices.

[SociopathFriend]

I understand this sentiment, but magic items make the +STR investment so much worse. You get GWM, You get PAM, you get +STR at level 8 and then... gauntlets of ogre power drop into the party's lap. Cleric goes "guess I'll take them if nobody else wants 'em."

You reconsider your life choices.

Every. Single. Time.

Minus GWM as I always prefer better hit chance vs damage.

[Schwann145]

They have high strength...

Wait... are you pumping Strength to get high Strength, or buying feats? You can't assume high Str if you're specifically avoiding it.

This leads to barbarians getting made as 20/16/16/8/8/8 meatheads that will turn on the party faster than a succubus can wink, or get whammied by an illithid in the first round and do nothing. That's terrible! That's super weak! You really live like this? You really... brag about your character's toughness? Conan would be rolling in his grave if he knew how weak to sorcery your barbarians were!
...
Do whatever you want. But your barbarian almost strictly gets more by spending ASIs on things other than +STR and +CON. There are so many feats that are better than +STR or +CON, to the point that I seriously can barely imagine maxing strength as a barbarian.

I would wholeheartedly agree that Feats are a better investment than Strength or Con. Not just for a Barbarian, mind, but especially for a Barbarian.

However, this seems to be falling into the trap of "everyone must be self-sufficient in this team-based game."
Instead of the Cleric casting a Spiritual Weapon, maybe they Dispel that Ilithid whammy?
Just as the Wizard likely won't be breaking down doors, the Barbarian won't be shrugging off mental attacks. The party should work to cover each other's weak points, rather than insisting weak points are covered before the party is even formed.

[MoiMagnus]

I understand this sentiment, but magic items make the +STR investment so much worse. You get GWM, You get PAM, you get +STR at level 8 and then... gauntlets of ogre power drop into the party's lap. Cleric goes "guess I'll take them if nobody else wants 'em."

You reconsider your life choices.

By the way, as anyone ever used the potions? It always felt wrong to me to use consummables as part of your core build, but given that the potion of 21 Str is only uncommon, it should be affordable enough to get one for every "boss fight" of Tier 2, right?

[stoutstien]

I'd agree barbarians lack nondamage related utility but saying that if the party is willing to spend even more resources than they already have to on them isn't exactly helping.
If you are going to try to give a barb some flexibility I would consider leveraging all the different types of advantage they get to reduce depending on others to do their thing.

[Eldariel]

However, this seems to be falling into the trap of "everyone must be self-sufficient in this team-based game."
Instead of the Cleric casting a Spiritual Weapon, maybe they Dispel that Ilithid whammy?
Just as the Wizard likely won't be breaking down doors, the Barbarian won't be shrugging off mental attacks. The party should work to cover each other's weak points, rather than insisting weak points are covered before the party is even formed.

There's a difference there. Only one person needs to break down a door for the party to go through it (and the Wizard can bypass doors through a dozen ways anyways; Misty Step, Knock, Thieves' Tools, damage spells, etc.). It's enough to have one character handle that in the party. However, the whole party is hit by Illithid's Mind Blast or Dragon's fear aura or whatever. Neither can be dispelled, they are not spells. Fact is that Cleric can try to help; they can cast e.g. Bless. But that doesn't negate the challenge, it just makes success more likely, and means the Cleric can't be using Concentration to rain hell on their adversary instead. And the Barbarian is a dog to fail even with Bless and Paladin aura unless you yourself have some tools on your character sheet: allied contributions alone don't suffice here. Res: Int isn't worth the investment (but Res: Wis for the millions of charms and fears and such certainly is), but Lucky is a pretty nice bonus to your ability to shrug off a Mind Blast.

It's not that you don't want to teamplay. It's that your personal choices enhance the benefits you gain from teamplay. This is precisely why you want feats like GWM and PAM too; those make buffs you get from allies better. Same with the save boosters. You can get help from allies, but help them help you! Otherwise you'll never make the save vs. Pit Fiend's fear aura and thus your chances of Smash boil down to "Grog scared. Grog no smash. Grog run!" Which is kinda lame for a character whose sole purpose in life is fighting in melee.

[Tanarii]

I mean, GWM is strictly better than a Str ASI, every time, for a Barbarian.

But Tough is not strictly better than a Con ASI. Tough provides 2 up front HP, but a Con ASI provides 1 up front HP, 1 short rest HP, and 1 to ability checks and saves.

Absolutely there are better things to spend your Str ASIs on. That's not the wielded part. The weird part is folks trade their Con ASIs, which they should already be prioritizing over Str ASIs anyway, for offensive feats. Instead of 2.5 Str and 2.5 Con ASIs, they're plan a "build" with 2.5 Str and 0.5 Con and GWM/PAM.

[Spo]

VERY interesting post and something I never considered (as I always seem to be chasing that 20 on my key characteristics- skipping feats for max dex and wis on my monk was brutal)

[stoutstien]

VERY interesting post and something I never considered (as I always seem to be chasing that 20 on my key characteristics- skipping feats for max dex and wis on my monk was brutal)

Honestly most PCs could never push past 18 and be fine. Some classes like bards and artificers really double down on things that draw on their primary stat so they tend to always want to push it up. Paladins are a special case as well with Cha being arguably their really primary stat.

[strangebloke]

Wait... are you pumping Strength to get high Strength, or buying feats? You can't assume high Str if you're specifically avoiding it.

The first part of this is me talking about the 'default case' where the barbarian pumps strength. AKA what I'm arguing you shouldn't do. A barbarian who pumps strength will have some utility by virtue of having high strength, but that's about it.

I would wholeheartedly agree that Feats are a better investment than Strength or Con. Not just for a Barbarian, mind, but especially for a Barbarian.

It's not strictly true. Monks and Rogues really need to shore up their AC, and Casters really want boosts to save DC.

However, this seems to be falling into the trap of "everyone must be self-sufficient in this team-based game."
Instead of the Cleric casting a Spiritual Weapon, maybe they Dispel that Ilithid whammy?
Just as the Wizard likely won't be breaking down doors, the Barbarian won't be shrugging off mental attacks. The party should work to cover each other's weak points, rather than insisting weak points are covered before the party is even formed.

You only need one guy to break down a door. Everyone has to deal with the illithid mind whammy at the same time. The succubus is going to charm whoever looks like the biggest meathead.

Sometimes, building for party strength means ensuring you're not the weakest link.

I'd agree barbarians lack nondamage related utility but saying that if the party is willing to spend even more resources than they already have to on them isn't exactly helping.
If you are going to try to give a barb some flexibility I would consider leveraging all the different types of advantage they get to reduce depending on others to do their thing.

My point is that its much easier for a support class to give a barbarian extra hp than it is for a barbarian to give themselves extra HP. A barbarian only gets 3 ASIs by level 12, a cleric gets dozens of spells, and using one on Aid is no big deal. This is true for damage as well, of course.

And yeah - leveraging all the different types of advantage they get to reduce depending on others - that's sort of what I'm going for here. Barbarian damage and resilience is really good, they can afford to spend their build resources in other areas. A bard really wants to get +CHA right away for saving throws, or maybe moderately armored. the barbarian can be the one who takes Inspiring Leader.

I mean, GWM is strictly better than a Str ASI, every time, for a Barbarian.

But Tough is not strictly better than a Con ASI. Tough provides 2 up front HP, but a Con ASI provides 1 up front HP, 1 short rest HP, and 1 to ability checks and saves.

Absolutely there are better things to spend your Str ASIs on. That's not the wielded part. The weird part is folks trade their Con ASIs, which they should already be prioritizing over Str ASIs anyway, for offensive feats. Instead of 2.5 Str and 2.5 Con ASIs, they're plan a "build" with 2.5 Str and 0.5 Con and GWM/PAM.

Hard disagree.

• You're already proficient in CON saves, and fixating on boosting them more is overkill - the giant spider will probably be trying to poison other people anyway.
• Con checks only exist some of the time at some tables and are functionally irrelevant to most people's considerations.
• The boost to HP/recovery is anemic and small compared to what other feats (medic, inspiring leader) can do, especially compared to what specialized healers can do.

Tough isn't a great feat, and I'd agree its generally worse than +CON, but +CON also isn't very good compared to other options.

VERY interesting post and something I never considered (as I always seem to be chasing that 20 on my key characteristics- skipping feats for max dex and wis on my monk was brutal)

with monks its more arguable, though my party's monk has skill expert inspiring leader and never regretted having either.

[Dr.Samurai]

Time and time again this forum makes me believe that DMs don't use grapple/restraining attacks that target Strength saves/checks, lair actions that target Strength saves/checks or even just exploration obstacles that require a strength check. Or that players just never use the jump movement type in combat.

I was literally thinking yesterday of starting a Strength Respect thread lol, so the timing on this thread is funny to me.

That said, I could maybe agree with the general premise on not maximizing strength but for me it comes with a giant caveat that is the number of encounters the table typically sees in a day. Without Rage, you lose the resistance, the advantage on Str checks/saves, and the bonus damage. Now you're just a person holding a sword wishing they could Rage again.

Things also get weird when you assume support. I agree support is a thing and the game assumes buff spells (though I've only now received the first ever Aid support and we are level 11 lol). But support spells can cover a lot of things, so it becomes a game of "what resource expenditure do you think is worth shoring up which weakness?".

That said, I do agree that THP has become ridiculously easy to get. But I've been complaining about casters stealing the martials' thunder forever now so, no surprise there .

I really think it depends on the feat. This analysis in the OP is almost entirely DPR-based. If you go sword and board, as an example, the two feats in the OP are out of the question. Other feats can grant utility and shore up weaknesses, but I don't think "you gain less from a +1 than other classes" means "therefore do not increase your stats". It depends on the feat, and then we're just sort of assuming builds for people.

[Psyren]

I would neither max Con nor pick up Tough. 14/16 is plenty for a Barb unless they're planning to go naked, and even then, Amulet of Health exists.

I also agree with Dr. Samurai. Almost all of my Barbarians are grapplers, so maxing Str goes beyond adding a couple of points of DPR, it also means you're less likely to waste your action. Moreover, having Max Str can contribute to your DM deciding you don't need to roll at all for various challenges.

I agree with the overall point that feats are very important for Barbarians, but I primarily view that as a reason to multiclass Fighter and get more of them.

[strangebloke]

Time and time again this forum makes me believe that DMs don't use grapple/restraining attacks that target Strength saves/checks, lair actions that target Strength saves/checks or even just exploration obstacles that require a strength check. Or that players just never use the jump movement type in combat.

I was literally thinking yesterday of starting a Strength Respect thread lol, so the timing on this thread is funny to me.

Grappling/Str saves happen of course, but barbarians are very strong against those by default. How often is a barbarian going to fail a STR saving throw for lack of STR? I would guess even with only 14 STR that happens very rarely. Failing WIS saves for lack of... any useful modifiers is a way more common problem. Something like Lucky will better protect you from str saves and grapples than +1 STR will anyway.

Your argument holds water, but its more of an argument for a rogue getting 12 STR than it is an argument for a barbarian getting 20.

As for out of combat Athletics... IMX this isn't as critical as people make it out to be. Sometimes you have to break down a door, and sometimes nobody in the party has a good way of doing that (lockpicks, eldritch blast, shatter) but its not like its the only way of doing things...

and if you really want to grapple, there's these feats called skill expert and tavern brawler

Things also get weird when you assume support. I agree support is a thing and the game assumes buff spells (though I've only now received the first ever Aid support and we are level 11 lol). But support spells can cover a lot of things, so it becomes a game of "what resource expenditure do you think is worth shoring up which weakness?".

My point is basically that if nobody in the party feels Aid is worth casting, why would you feel +CON is important? An feat that let you cast Aid 1/day but it could only target one person it would be a pretty bad feat.

I really think it depends on the feat. This analysis in the OP is almost entirely DPR-based. If you go sword and board, as an example, the two feats in the OP are out of the question. Other feats can grant utility and shore up weaknesses, but I don't think "you gain less from a +1 than other classes" means "therefore do not increase your stats". It depends on the feat, and then we're just sort of assuming builds for people.

I mean, its still true in that case? You still have massive hp compared to other classes, the +1 HP is marginal. Arguably, because your defenses are so good, +1 CON in that instance is even more overkill than it otherwise would be. And S&B barbs can still use reckless, so the accuracy bonus from +1 STR is less impactful too.

If I was making a S&B barb I'd stay at 16 str and get shield master and skill expert and lucky. (also, my go-to example for easy THP that blows +CON out of the water was inspiring leader, a feat barbarians can take.)

I also agree with Dr. Samurai. Almost all of my Barbarians are grapplers, so maxing Str goes beyond adding a couple of points of DPR, it also means you're less likely to waste your action. Moreover, having Max Str can contribute to your DM deciding you don't need to roll at all for various challenges.

I don't really see how +STR is ever better for a grappler than tavern brawler or skill expert.

[Psyren]

I don't really see how +STR is ever better for a grappler than tavern brawler or skill expert.

I agree Skill Expert is better - but if you're starting from a 17, then I'd probably go with SE + Str increase rather than SE + TB personally. (Of course, you could always do both and then ASI for +1 Str/+1 something else.)

[Rashagar]

If you go sword and board, as an example, the two feats in the OP are out of the question. Other feats can grant utility and shore up weaknesses, but I don't think "you gain less from a +1 than other classes" means "therefore do not increase your stats". It depends on the feat, and then we're just sort of assuming builds for people.

One of my favourite characters to play in combat was a S+B barbarian with Shield Master and Mobile.

Allowed me to be tanky when I needed to be, get out of Dodge when I could afford to (or when the party could afford me to), knock people down to halve their speed to keep them from the party squishies and then run away myself too, and generally just have fun.

Not sure what the level 8 ASI/feat would have been if she'd gotten to that level, but I do hope to revisit her some day...

[ProsecutorGodot]

I would neither max Con nor pick up Tough. 14/16 is plenty for a Barb unless they're planning to go naked, and even then, Amulet of Health exists.

I also agree with Dr. Samurai. Almost all of my Barbarians are grapplers, so maxing Str goes beyond adding a couple of points of DPR, it also means you're less likely to waste your action. Moreover, having Max Str can contribute to your DM deciding you don't need to roll at all for various challenges.

I agree with the overall point that feats are very important for Barbarians, but I primarily view that as a reason to multiclass Fighter and get more of them.

I would argue that Skill Expert is better in this case, you get a half feat, an additional proficiency and expertise in athletics.

The only time a straight strength bump is preferable would be if your DM is prone to calling unskilled strength checks and is inflexible in allowing a skill to apply. Features and effects that actually call for an unskilled check are rare enough that barring such a DM I just don't see this as a compelling reason.

Edit: And I got beat to the punch, glad to see we more or less agree.

[Ionathus]

Some very good points in this thread, it's made me re-envision the barbarian pretty thoroughly! I was mostly in the camp of "max STR and CON" since, as LordShade said, not doing so simply seems wrong.

If I didn't want to be the biggest, toughest bastard in the room, I'd pick a different class!

Then again, the only 5e Barbarian I've ever played was a middle-aged half-elf Eagle Totem who was a real Sokka type -- big on utility, variety, and tactics, spry and tough but nowhere near the most muscular boi. Pretty sure I stuck with 16 STR so that I could sneak PAM in there instead, and it was absolutely the right choice. Those extra attacks and features (plus the dashing) made full use of the Rage damage and enabled me to always be in melee. I'm a sucker for options in a fight.

That was a scrappy campaign, and a ton of fun. Highly recommend playing a non-20STR/20CON barbarian.

[Dr.Samurai]

Grappling/Str saves happen of course, but barbarians are very strong against those by default. How often is a barbarian going to fail a STR saving throw for lack of STR? I would guess even with only 14 STR that happens very rarely. Failing WIS saves for lack of... any useful modifiers is a way more common problem. Something like Lucky will better protect you from str saves and grapples than +1 STR will anyway.

They're very strong when you're Raging. This is looking at the Barbarian at peak efficiency and saying "I could shave off some points here and there", but you won't always be Raging, or sometimes you get knocked out of Raging, or sometimes Disadvantage will negate your Advantage, and then you're closer to average than awesome.

The humble Poisoned condition will negate your Reckless Attack and your Advantage to Strength Checks. Now you're 1-2 points behind on your rolls. If that's not significant, then neither is 14 wisdom vs 10 or 12 wisdom. Blinded and Frightened, or fighting against an invisible enemy, etc. will all negate your Reckless Attack.

Your argument holds water, but its more of an argument for a rogue getting 12 STR than it is an argument for a barbarian getting 20.

My opinion on this is that it is better to lean into the barbarian's strengths than to try and spread the love around.

As for out of combat Athletics... IMX this isn't as critical as people make it out to be. Sometimes you have to break down a door, and sometimes nobody in the party has a good way of doing that (lockpicks, eldritch blast, shatter) but its not like its the only way of doing things...

I suspect this is true for a lot of tables. For our Avernus game, we just reached the Citadel and my character's jumping and climbing has facilitated the exploration through this dungeon along with heavy use of rope. So I leap across the spaces and hold or secure the rope for others to swing across, then I pull them up. Or I hold the rope while others descend 20ft, etc. These are overhangs that you can't climb up or down from. Is this a big deal? I don't know, I'm not sure how we would navigate this place without someone being able to leap across, but we never had to figure it out.

and if you really want to grapple, there's these feats called skill expert and tavern brawler

Both of which increase Strength by +1, best of both worlds

My point is basically that if nobody in the party feels Aid is worth casting, why would you feel +CON is important? An feat that let you cast Aid 1/day but it could only target one person it would be a pretty bad feat.

You mean if the one person in the party that can cast it doesn't feel like it's worth it.

But my point is that there are spells that make you immune to Charm, or Frightened, or that buff your saves. So how do we determine which buffs should be assumed to know what a barbarian should prioritize?

I mean, its still true in that case? You still have massive hp compared to other classes, the +1 HP is marginal. Arguably, because your defenses are so good, +1 CON in that instance is even more overkill than it otherwise would be. And S&B barbs can still use reckless, so the accuracy bonus from +1 STR is less impactful too.

If I was making a S&B barb I'd stay at 16 str and get shield master and skill expert and lucky. (also, my go-to example for easy THP that blows +CON out of the water was inspiring leader, a feat barbarians can take.)

Hard disagree that Shield Master is an auto-pick over +1 attk/dmg/str save/str check/jmp. You'll be begging for the second bullet point to take effect, and the third bullet point is nice, but +2(Adv) on dex saves is hardly a guarantee that you'll be succeeding those all the time. Shoving as a bonus action is excellent though.

ETA: I forgot to mention that Inspiring Leader requires a 13 Charisma so it's very unlikely a barbarian can grab it.

I don't really see how +STR is ever better for a grappler than tavern brawler or skill expert.

Tavern Brawler requires you to hit with an unarmed strike in order to make use of the bonus action, so that's not for all builds. Skill Expert is excellent. Both of these boost Strength as well so it's less of an issue.


I get the point being made overall, I just don't think it's a slam dunk argument. It's a consideration. But even when you're raging, which you won't be all the time, monsters impose conditions that take away those Advantages, so you can't always rely on these perfect conditions to say "I don't need to boost Str".

I would not suggest maximizing Constitution, I am only talking about Strength.

[Unoriginal]

Funnily enough, Yasha from Critical Role illustrates all the sides of this argument.

She was a Greatsword-wielding Aasimar Zealot Barbarian, whose player spent all of the ASIs for feats (campaign started at lvl 1, ended when the group reached lvl 16).

But:

-Her stats were STR 17 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 9 CHA 7 at the start

-Player took Sentinel (lvl 4), Savage Attacker (lvl 8), Mobile (lvl 12) and an unknown feat (in the lvl up to 16 at the end of the campaign)

That plus a bunch of tactical concerns (ex: her player close-to-never making her tank, and rarely using the feats she got) ended up making Yasha the less efficient member of the group, to the point that the Barbarian not contributing to fights or actively working against the party due to X or Y bad guy's abilities was a running joke.


So yes, OP is correct, it's possible for a Barbarian to benefit more from spending their ASIs on feats, but:

-The Barbarian needs a specific statline for this (said statline can be obtained via point buy, but not with standard array and is unlikely with rolled stats).

-The Barbarian needs to choose among specific feats for to benefit more from them than from stat improvement.

-The Barbarian needs to choose which of the things they're good at they wish to improve, or which weakness they're compensating for.

[strangebloke]

They're very strong when you're Raging. This is looking at the Barbarian at peak efficiency and saying "I could shave off some points here and there", but you won't always be Raging, or sometimes you get knocked out of Raging, or sometimes Disadvantage will negate your Advantage, and then you're closer to average than awesome.[]

The humble Poisoned condition will negate your Reckless Attack and your Advantage to Strength Checks. Now you're 1-2 points behind on your rolls. If that's not significant, then neither is 14 wisdom vs 10 or 12 wisdom. Blinded and Frightened, or fighting against an invisible enemy, etc. will all negate your Reckless Attack.

I mean, sure. But what makes your rage end early? The charmed and frightened conditions, which +STR/CON does nothing to help you with.

My opinion on this is that it is better to lean into the barbarian's strengths than to try and spread the love around.

Hard disagree here. In the first place, defense is all about covering your bases. Monsters are going to go after ideal targets, and if you look kind of unwise, the succubus is going to go after you preferentially, in the same way a ghoul might go after the reedy looking bard. You're only as tough as your worst defensive trait. Being super resistant to poison isn't way better than being just very resistant to poison, and also being hard to frighten/charm.

Secondly, like... math. +STR is going to raise your chances on STR saves from 88% chance to 91% chance, or something like that. It's marginal. Resilient:Wisdom and modest WIS, when compared to a meathead barbarian, brings you from like a 25% chance to a 50% chance. You succeed twice as often.

You mean if the one person in the party that can cast it doesn't feel like it's worth it.

Why don't they think its worthwhile? Because they're selfish? Or is it because at the end of the day extra hp just isn't that useful?

I would strongly argue its the latter. HP does nothing until you drop to zero.

But my point is that there are spells that make you immune to Charm, or Frightened, or that buff your saves. So how do we determine which buffs should be assumed to know what a barbarian should prioritize?

Sure, something like Hero's Feast exists, but lets be clear: I'm not saying you should dump STR or CON. I'm saying that doubling or tripling down on STR and CON while leaving glaring gaps in your other defenses is foolish. Again, Lucky also protects you from failed strength and con saves.

ETA: I forgot to mention that Inspiring Leader requires a 13 Charisma so it's very unlikely a barbarian can grab it.

Why? Do Barbarians never want to make charisma checks?

It's really not too much to ask to boost one mental stat, yeah?

I get the point being made overall, I just don't think it's a slam dunk argument. It's a consideration. But even when you're raging, which you won't be all the time, monsters impose conditions that take away those Advantages, so you can't always rely on these perfect conditions to say "I don't need to boost Str".

I would not suggest maximizing Constitution, I am only talking about Strength.[/QUOTE]

Funnily enough, Yasha from Critical Role illustrates all the sides of this argument.

She was a Greatsword-wielding Aasimar Zealot Barbarian, whose player spent all of the ASIs for feats (campaign started at lvl 1, ended when the group reached lvl 16).
...

-The Barbarian needs a specific statline for this (said statline can be obtained via point buy, but not with standard array and is unlikely with rolled stats).

-The Barbarian needs to choose among specific feats for to benefit more from them than from stat improvement.

-The Barbarian needs to choose which of the things they're good at they wish to improve, or which weakness they're compensating for.

I mean yes, don't pick terrible feats and stats and race for your build and playstyle, lol.

Savage Attacker is famously bad and mobile does almost nothing for a barbarian. Sentinel is fine, but 1/3 is a pretty bad selection rate. And yeah, with her (very bad under MM's rules) rolled array it'd be simplicity itself to trade around her starting stats for something more like 17/14/12/9/15/7, then grab some nice half-feats like skill expert or resilient wis.

Actually I'll just link CMCC's video here.

[Dr.Samurai]

I mean, sure. But what makes your rage end early? The charmed and frightened conditions, which +STR/CON does nothing to help you with.

But you're not really suggesting Resilient Wisdom, you're suggesting GWM and PAM. So that's 11 levels before you're getting Resilient Wisdom.

Also, not being able to reach someone can also end your rage early, and often enough that can be hampered mobility, which Strength can absolutely help you avoid.

Hard disagree here. In the first place, defense is all about covering your bases. Monsters are going to go after ideal targets, and if you look kind of unwise, the succubus is going to go after you preferentially, in the same way a ghoul might go after the reedy looking bard. You're only as tough as your worst defensive trait. Being super resistant to poison isn't way better than being just very resistant to poison, and also being hard to frighten/charm.

But that's at CR 4. If the barbarian is grabbing GWM or PAM or Shield Master or Skill Expert... how are they avoiding Charm? The barbarian you propose in the OP has the same Will save as a barbarian with Max strength.

Secondly, like... math. +STR is going to raise your chances on STR saves from 88% chance to 91% chance, or something like that. It's marginal. Resilient:Wisdom and modest WIS, when compared to a meathead barbarian, brings you from like a 25% chance to a 50% chance. You succeed twice as often.

I think Resilient Wisdom is a great feat but... you're not proposing "put off Strength for an ASI so you can grab Resilient Wisdom". You're saying "barbarians don't need to max strength".

Why don't they think its worthwhile? Because they're selfish? Or is it because at the end of the day extra hp just isn't that useful?

I would strongly argue its the latter. HP does nothing until you drop to zero.

I'm not advocating for maxing Con.

Sure, something like Hero's Feast exists, but lets be clear: I'm not saying you should dump STR or CON. I'm saying that doubling or tripling down on STR and CON while leaving glaring gaps in your other defenses is foolish. Again, Lucky also protects you from failed strength and con saves.

The position in the OP is tightening into something else. As I mentioned in my first post, it depends on the feat. Lucky is a very strong feat. Resilient is a very strong feat.

Heroism, Protection from Good and Evil, Bless, etc. are all buff spells. We can point to those just like we point to Aid.

Why? Do Barbarians never want to make charisma checks?

It's really not too much to ask to boost one mental stat, yeah?

Well... you mentioned Wisdom saves before so I was assuming 14 Str, Dex, Con, and then 13 Wis. What stats are you assuming for this barbarian then? Because I'm not seeing how you keep your physical stats at 14, plus keep wisdom up to stave off Frightened/Charmed AND qualify for Inspiring Leader.

I mean yes, don't pick terrible feats and stats and race for your build and playstyle, lol.

But this is the point I made originally, now we're just assuming full builds and saying "see, you can play a barbarian with no ASIs to Str/Con".

Savage Attacker is famously bad and mobile does almost nothing for a barbarian.

Mobile's speed boost allows for better Jump optimization. If you're more of a mobile striker, you can bypass the frontline more easily to target a backline enemy. Or, grab one enemy and hit another one in your way so you can position better.

Sentinel is fine, but 1/3 is a pretty bad selection rate.

Every attack that Sentinel provides or augments occurs off-turn, so does not benefit from Reckless Attack and would prefer a straight up Strength boost instead.

I just don't think the OP is a slam dunk, I think it depends on the build.

[Schwann145]

...and if you look kind of unwise...

The most metagame statement ever?

Important to remember that 8-10 is average. A "meathead" would be, like, Wis or Int 5.

[Unoriginal]

I mean yes, don't pick terrible feats and stats and race for your build and playstyle, lol.

My points were more "if you don't have the right stat array you may benefit more from upgrading your stats" and "

Sentinel is fine, but 1/3 is a pretty bad selection rate.

Sentinel is good, when you use it. So yeah, your point about selecting feats fitting your playstyle applies here.

[strangebloke]

But you're not really suggesting Resilient Wisdom, you're suggesting GWM and PAM. So that's 11 levels before you're getting Resilient Wisdom.
...
But that's at CR 4. If the barbarian is grabbing GWM or PAM or Shield Master or Skill Expert... how are they avoiding Charm? The barbarian you propose in the OP has the same Will save as a barbarian with Max strength.
...
I think Resilient Wisdom is a great feat but... you're not proposing "put off Strength for an ASI so you can grab Resilient Wisdom". You're saying "barbarians don't need to max strength".

What I'm saying is, that a Barbarian who never takes an ASI for STR, but fixates on feats and half feats that cover the (massive) gaps in their kit, will be overall stronger than one who focuses on just maxing STR and/or CON. GWM gives you as much damage as two STR ASIs. Either Lucky or Resilient:Wisdom will give you more real staying power than +CON and +STR combined.

Also, not being able to reach someone can also end your rage early, and often enough that can be hampered mobility, which Strength can absolutely help you avoid.

I mean, you can throw a javelin? Effects that target str saving throws simply aren't as delibilitating as spells targeting wis saving throws. There are some exceptions here, but not many.

The position in the OP is tightening into something else. As I mentioned in my first post, it depends on the feat. Lucky is a very strong feat. Resilient is a very strong feat.

I've perhaps not expressed myself the best, but my position hasn't shifted. A barbarian only gets 3-4 ASIs in an entire campaign. Whether you're trying to grapple, deal damage, have general utility, or have staying power, there are typically at least 2 feats that do more for you than an ASI, by virtue of how the barbarian class works. For damage there's PAM/GWM/Sentinel/martial adept, for grappling there's tavern brawler and skill expert, for utility there's observant and alert, for staying power there's lucky and resilient wisdom.

If the barbarian had 5-7 ASIs rather than 3-4 they'd have space to max STR or CON.

Heroism, Protection from Good and Evil, Bless, etc. are all buff spells. We can point to those just like we point to Aid.

The issue isn't that Aid is so good on a barbarian that people will always cast it and so +CON is redundant. The issue is that extra HP is already redundant on a barbarian, which is why nobody casts Aid on the Barbarian. If they cast Aid, they cast it on literally anyone else. Aid benefits a 20 HP sorcerer a lot more than a 40 HP raging barbarian.

For contrast Heroism and Bless are spells I see cast on the barbarian, because the barbarian getting frightened or charmed is a serious concern (and because bless benefits attackers)

Well... you mentioned Wisdom saves before so I was assuming 14 Str, Dex, Con, and then 13 Wis. What stats are you assuming for this barbarian then? Because I'm not seeing how you keep your physical stats at 14, plus keep wisdom up to stave off Frightened/Charmed AND qualify for Inspiring Leader.

I am not advocating for a particular build. I'm just saying that essentially all the good builds have little reason to boost STR or CON after level 1. You can build a really cool dragonborn barbarian who has something like 16/12/13/10/12/14 at level one and takes dragon fear and inspiring leader at 4 and 8. Not much stronger vs. saves than the meathead, but has a lot more utility and HP than if you boosted CON or STR a bunch.

I just don't think the OP is a slam dunk, I think it depends on the build.

Not every barbarian build uses only/mostly feats...

...just the good ones.

The most metagame statement ever?

Important to remember that 8-10 is average. A "meathead" would be, like, Wis or Int 5.

Relative to the exceptional party of heroes, an all 8s mental guy is absolutely going to come across as a meathead.

Sentinel is good, when you use it. So yeah, your point about selecting feats fitting your playstyle applies here.

Having a good gameplan is always more important than having a good build.

[Unoriginal]

Having a good gameplan is always more important than having a good build.

Very true.

[Schwann145]

Relative to the exceptional party of heroes, an all 8s mental guy is absolutely going to come across as a meathead.

My point is kind of that, relative to the brilliance (or narcissistically self-presumed brilliance) of the enemy caster, everyone looks like a "meathead," including the 14 Wis Rogue with Slippery Mind, the 12 Wis Paladin with Aura of Protection, even the 20 Wis Cleric with 8 Int looks like a bumbling idiot to the Ilithid or Succubus or whatever other caster is trying to mentally disable the party.

Because mental stats don't look like anything.

[strangebloke]

My point is kind of that, relative to the brilliance (or narcissistically self-presumed brilliance) of the enemy caster, everyone looks like a "meathead," including the 14 Wis Rogue with Slippery Mind, the 12 Wis Paladin with Aura of Protection, even the 20 Wis Cleric with 8 Int looks like a bumbling idiot to the Ilithid or Succubus or whatever other caster is trying to mentally disable the party.

Because mental stats don't look like anything.

That may be how you run the game, that's not how I run the game.

In the same way that PCs will assume beasts have low intelligence and charisma, so too can enemies assume the martial PCs will have bad mental saves. It isn't a stretch that the guy flinging around arcane magic probably trained their mind. It isn't a stretch to assume that the priest whose calling down miracles from on high will have even better mental defenses. It isn't a stretch to assume that the huge smelly guy with a maul has been honing his body rather than his mind.

And sure, sometimes you have a rogue with slippery mind. The monsters can be wrong. But I also have yet to meet a 20/16/16/8/8/8 character that wasn't also roleplayed as a meathead.

[Frogreaver]

Most Barbarians are about Bashing face.

The things needed to bash face are:
1. Close the gap
2. Do strong damage once there
3. Disincentive enemies from moving away from you
4. Be able to take damage as you'll often be a prime target for enemies (closer to them, easier to hit due to reckless, etc).
5. Avoid status effects that prevent any of the above

My most effective Barbarians have been ones that haven't outright relied on DPR. Instead having high mobility, and multiple methods to keep my target near me and being very survivable has IME been much more effective than outright DPR. How much of this is a direct reflection of how my DM runs encounters and how much of it is generally applicable is hard to say. But I would highly recommend this style of Barbarian over the traditional DPR focused one any day. I think feats can help in these areas, but multiclass rogue seems a generally better fit as it greatly boosts grappling chances, OA damage and mobility. If you do this multiclass route then IMO feats are generally much less important - and it's here where I'd recommend ASI's over feats.

A good deal of this can be replicated via a few feats though. Mobile feat helps alot with mobility. Sentinel makes your OA's important. The feat for expertise atheletics and +1 Str or Con helps as well. Obviously at some point I'd recommend resilient wisdom, but it need not be an early feat.