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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    That's the thing. The SLAs are not the most attractive part of the template‚ by far. They're weak and basically do not rely on CL or Cha that much.
    Detect Magic lets you check three "points of interest" in full at CL 1, provided there's no more than one round of movement, and nine at CL 3 with three rounds of movement. That is, in fact, a pretty impactful improvement to its use-cases. At high CLs, Alignment detection comes to cover large stretches of the day. These are far from worthless improvements for all they stay situational to use, and are something that scales solely with Sorcerer levels. Again, you're insisting on totally ignoring everything but raw +numbers that are a terrible balance for doing much of anything relative to just about any other source of Large size.

    I don't get how you get "pathetic when the numbers are basically strictly better than Spellwarped and on par with Half-Dragon.
    ...One, it's fairly easy for a Spellwarped to be sticking around at +18 abilities itself and constantly refresh temp HP just by getting a cheap wand and gets +4 Int to actively be a good Warblade or Duskblade, instead of just having a bucket of HP and a decent damage bump to what it did anyways without any serious new options, and two, this is not "on par with Half Dragon", because Half Dragons get an Energy Immunity which is a situational total shutdown with no questions asked and a massive chunk of the benefits of the template are specifically tied to being Large already and having RHD for it to buff, which almost always means stacking to totals that rather thoroughly warp the game math.

    And I really can't take the Barbarian/Warblade suggestion seriously. You are going to suffer horrible progression crippling that way, whether from taking enough Barbarian levels to avoid multiclassing penalty or from the penalty itself. Plus Barbarian's benefits are redundant with Tiger Claw and its detriments actually cripple one of Warblade's big advantages in Diamond Mind, and the template bumps Wis/Cha, not Int, so you're actively ignoring even a bit of its ability scores. Psychic Warrior, meanwhile, would have some value to the template's Natural Attack, allows for further size increases, benefits from the Wisdom bump, has a pretty cheap Grapple package for size to be more than just damage, and can be saving more Powers Known than it loses from LA.

    I mean‚ you could go sorcerer. I just feel like you lose more than any other class‚ considering you're already one level behind in spellcasting. Deepwyrm drows have sorcerer and clerics as their favored class‚ but no PC-built Drow ever chooses these classes. Favored classes are a very weak incentive to choose a class compared to stat repartition.
    No, the one that loses the worst is Paladin because of the hard Alignment lockout (unless you use the Slaughter variant which is begging for nonsense RAW outcomes with Blackguard), or maybe a Cleric build dependent on an incompatible god. And when you're talking builds that are dip-reliant like most Martial setups and nearly all Gish entry strategies, Favored Class is really bloody important to being able to maintain a sane progression rate, so shifting that is actually a pretty major advantage by making it possible to get away with one-level Martial dips for Proficiencies to start PRCs. Having Favored Class Sorcerer means you can dip freely, having Favored Class Fighter means you have to either mainline it or dip only Fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    It's a rule that's only applicable to a very narrow range of builds. Putting aside that you need to be very specifically a sorcerer, and make that your main class if you want more than one dip (so—off the top of my head—a ranger with a couple levels of sorcerer who took the Arcane Archer class would still be penalized), if you have multiple dips you need to keep your dips close to the same level. A Sorcerer 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3 is gonna have problems—slightly fewer than if they didn't have a favored class, but still.
    PRCs like Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight don't count because of examples like this being Obvious Garbage that would apply to literally every Prestige Class rendering them unusable, it's base classes only. So for this to kick in, you need to spend at least four levels on a 3/1 split on top of the LA (whether +1 or +2), instead of just a level or two of one Martial to get the PRCs going. And the most common reason for such a split is to get beyond-1st subsystem access, so Sorcerer is poor for taking 4 levels, with Bard being a much better benefit for such if you really aren't scaling up the casting.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2022-08-03 at 10:30 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    And I really can't take the Barbarian/Warblade suggestion seriously. You are going to suffer horrible progression crippling that way, whether from taking enough Barbarian levels to avoid multiclassing penalty or from the penalty itself. Plus Barbarian's benefits are redundant with Tiger Claw and its detriments actually cripple one of Warblade's big advantages in Diamond Mind, and the template bumps Wis/Cha, not Int, so you're actively ignoring even a bit of its ability scores.
    Pretty sure that slash means "or," not "and".

    And when you're talking builds that are dip-reliant like most Martial setups and nearly all Gish entry strategies, Favored Class is really bloody important to being able to maintain a sane progression rate, so shifting that is actually a pretty major advantage by making it possible to get away with one-level Martial dips for Proficiencies to start PRCs. Having Favored Class Sorcerer means you can dip freely, having Favored Class Fighter means you have to either mainline it or dip only Fighter.
    First: Keep in mind that we're assuming that the DM is using the multiclass XP penalty rules. Any importance this could have is limited to that edge case.
    Second: Favored Class is, by its design, one class. You unlock builds that specifically have sorcerer as the main class and a bunch of non-sorcerer dips. And only if none of those dips are more than one level deeper than the others.
    Third:
    PRCs like Arcane Archer and Eldritch Knight don't count because of examples like this being Obvious Garbage that would apply to literally every Prestige Class rendering them unusable, it's base classes only.
    I had forgotten that element, but I don't think it actually helps your side overall. It narrows the range of builds where multiclass XP penalties could apply even further.

    So Favored Class is an element that will rarely have any impact on a character, both because hardly anyone uses those rules and because they only apply to a narrow range of builds even when those rules are used. Again: Bonds/Traits/Flaws have a more consistent mechanical impact than Favored Class, because they actually apply to every character (and also because more people use Inspiration than Multiclass XP Penalties, but mostly the first thing).
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I can't see the posts you are replying to.
    He was quoting a post someone made in a previous LA Assignment Thread. The post he was replying to isnt in this thread, thats why you didnt see it.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Actually it was because he quoted his own message to get the text instead of editing it before deleting it after absolutely not accidentally posting it in the last thread. Quotes don't show up within quotes, probably so conversations don't end up with monstrous quote chains in a single post.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Actually it was because he quoted his own message to get the text instead of editing it before deleting it after absolutely not accidentally posting it in the last thread.
    In my defense, the Edit and Quote buttons are right next to each other.

    ...also, if anyone asks, I have no idea what you're talking about.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    +2 - loky1109, Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, Mystic Muse, remetagross, H_H_F_F, Metastachydium, Thurbane
    +1 - Remuko, Morphic tide

    +2 it is, then. Next up is the Aleithian Dwarf, a creature that actually has a specific "X as a character" section to make life easier for me.
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    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles


    Size & Type: Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
    Space/Reach: 5'/5'
    HD: 1
    Speed: 20'
    Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha -4 - Net +0, one penalty
    Natural Armor: 0
    Natural Weapons: N/A
    Skill List: By Class (+2 Racial on Craft related to Crystal, Metal, or Stone)
    Body Shape: Humanoid
    Speech (Languages): Yes (Dwarven, Common - Bonus Languages: Draconic, Terran, Undercommon)
    CR: 1/2 if a 1st-level Warrior
    WotC LA: +0
    Our LA: +0

    It's a Psionic Dwarf, with both a few neat abilities and some drawbacks that should theoretically even it out but realistically probably don't. Light Sensitivity has a few ways to be ignored aside from just not going out in the day, and while we frown on rating these creatures with the assumption that players will be minmaxing, Charisma is already a common dump stat even if you aren't.

    So as far as what you can do that normal Dwarves already can, you have Stonecunning and the +2 bonus to saves against poison. Your Darkvision also goes out to 90' instead of the normal 60. You lack Stability (because this is 3.0 content, which means a proper update might give you that) and the +2 to saves against spells and SLAs, instead having a +2 on specifically Will saves against psionics. You have no other abilities that are common to regular Dwarves, at least not the 3.5 ones.

    You can also manifest Ectoplasmic Repair and Finger of Fire each 3/day as PLAs, ML1 and no listed ability score to base the DC on.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2022-08-31 at 07:34 PM.
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    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Seems like an easy +0 to me, unless I'm missing something. Being worse against spells and SLAs is a nerf, but having +2 to Con and Int is good. PLAs are nice to have. It's a good subsystem race, probably even very good, but not stronger than e.g. an Azurin.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2022-08-09 at 01:29 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Agree with easy +0.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    +0 is appropriate, although I will say that it is potentially a very strong +0, depending on how you update those 3.0 psionics.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Very good +0, IMO.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Again, very wonky on psionics, especially 3.0 psionics, but this looks like a very strong LA +0 to me. Could be persuaded to +1 depending on exactly what the 3.5 conversion of it's psionics does: anyone hep me out with that?

    Side note: great chassis for a Int based caster. A Wizard can easily afford to dump Cha, and extra Con is always welcome. Bonuses to Int for LA +0 creatures are fairly uncommon.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Agree on strong +0. I think we should just ignore 3.0 attack/defense modes since there's no good way to update them while keeping the spirit and the power level of the creature.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Again, very wonky on psionics, especially 3.0 psionics, but this looks like a very strong LA +0 to me. Could be persuaded to +1 depending on exactly what the 3.5 conversion of it's psionics does: anyone hep me out with that?

    Side note: great chassis for a Int based caster. A Wizard can easily afford to dump Cha, and extra Con is always welcome. Bonuses to Int for LA +0 creatures are fairly uncommon.
    I did a short look through my list of powers and the 3.0 Psionics Handbook and came to the following conclusions:

    Ectoplasmic repair was converted to 3.5 here. It's essentially a slightly more powerful form of mending. It can be used as is.

    Finger of fire was a 0th level power, which don't exist in 3.5 anymore. It's basically ray of frost with fire. When converting this creature, one could replace it with the slightly more powerful energy ray (restricted to fire), but as the point of this race is a specialization on metacreativity, I would think that crystal shard (1d6 piercing on a ranged touch attack) or bolt (creates temporary arrows, crossbowbolts or sling bullets with +1) would be a better fit.

    The 3.5 version of empty mind at 3/day can stay that way (it's +2 to will saves as an Immediate action for 1 round).

    The big problem is ego whip. The 3.5 version is 2nd level (all other powers I suggested are 1st) and too changed in its effect. As the old version of ego whip attacked Dex, I would offer as a thematically fitting alternative entangling ectoplasm 3/day (hit the target with a ranged touch attack to entangle it for 5 rounds).

    Lastly, I would make saves dependant on Int (not that any of those powers allows a save), and either keep the ML 1 or change it to ML=character level.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    I'll note that with LA Buyoff I could definitely see these guys getting +1, at least if you also converted the attack and defense modes to 3.5 equivalents.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    My intuition is +0, +1 if it gets the absent 3.5 dwarf traits (or a more generous psionic update).
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2022-08-09 at 05:57 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Easy +0. Moving on to the Ecto Fragments.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles


    Size & Type: Fine (Speck, Minim), Diminutive (Jot, Bit), Tiny (Mite, Mote) Aberration
    Space/Reach: Normal for Size
    HD: 1/4 (Speck, 1/2 (Minim)1, (Jot), 2 (Bit), 3 (Mite), 4 (Mote)
    Speed: Fly 60' (Perfect)

    Ability Scores (Speck): Str -10, Dex +2, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -20, three penalties
    Ability Scores (Minim): Str -8, Dex +2, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -18, three penalties
    Ability Scores (Jot): Str -6, Dex +4, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -14, three penalties
    Ability Scores (Bit): Str -4, Dex +4, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -12, three penalties
    Ability Scores (Mite): Str -6, Dex +6, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -12, three penalties
    Ability Scores (Mote): Str -4, Dex +8, Con +0, Int -6, Wis -6, Cha +0 - Net -8, three penalties

    Natural Armor: 0
    Natural Weapons: N/A
    Skill List: Spot
    Body Shape: "floating orbs of goo"
    Speech (Languages): No
    CR: 1/3 - 2
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: -0 across the board.

    It's pretty much implied these things have no eyes, and therefore probably can't see. Though regardless of if they can, they can sense brain activity (read: non-mindless creatures) within 60'. They also have immunity to mind affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stun, polymorph, and precision damage. They are destroyed by Dismiss Ectoplasm.

    They also have a handful of at-will Psi-Like Abilities depending on their size, none of which can save then from the -0 pile.

    Speck - Far Punch, Minim, Finger of Fire, Jot - Lesser Concussion, Bit - Fire Fall, Mite - Concussion, Mote - Whitefire
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Horrendous ability scores‚ no item slots and mediocre PLAs. Yeah‚ -0 for all. A point for +0 for the Jot could be made‚ since being Diminutive is good and 60ft Perfect flying is invaluable‚ as well as immunity to mind affecting. That said‚ I don't currently think it balances the body shape‚ but could be swayed.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-08-10 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    Yeah, can't get psyched about this: I'll vote -0 all around and be done with it.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    I do think a Jot could make a unique and interesting Wilder, but that's probably not enough to save it (or any of these) from a -0.
    Last edited by ff7hero; 2022-08-10 at 08:49 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    -0 for bit, mite, and mote. +0 for speck, minim, and jot. It's not great, but if I'm not paying hit dice for it, I could easily see taking this over something like half-elf or goblin. Fine size is cool and unique.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2022-08-10 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    -0 for all. Jot... is slightly better, but I don't think it worth +0.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    First off: The creatures are never stated to be blind anywhere, and the only implication that they are comes from the fact that they only react to things their brain sense can sense. Plus, they have darkvision. Just one or the other could be iffy editing, but together there's a strong argument that they can see at least 60 feet. If they can't, if the fragment would constantly bump into furniture or ceilings and couldn't sense the zombies shambling towards it, definite -0. Brain sense alone is acceptable for a monster, but unacceptable on a PC.


    At low levels, a fragment wilder would rely on its PLAs to do anything once its power points run out. So let's look at them!
    • Far punch: 1 force damage.
    • Finger of fire: 1d3 fire damage.
    • Lesser concussion: 1d6 nonlethal damage.

    I'd say it would be more worthwhile to use a weapon, but echo fragments don't have hands. Yeesh. And at higher levels, the lack of magic items is gonna be killer.

    Maybe a CG warlock with Vow of Poverty would work? You wouldn't need to worry about running out of resources, VoP gives you benefits for not using items, and warlocks don't really need Strength, Intelligence, or Wisdom (more than an ordinary character—Will saves and skill points are gonna suck).


    Compare this to, say, a half-elf. The half-elf has hands and item slots, non-negligible Str/Int/Wis, and access to a bunch of elf support. The fragment is small, flies, has a situational but handy sense, and gets an extra cantrip. Also some immunities, but those come with a no-save instant-death weakness, so let's call that a wash. I can definitely see encounters where the fragment would have a big edge...but in general, it's gonna struggle at anything that can't be solved with flight or an eldritch blast.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    I did only say it's implied they're blind. Also, WotC always lists things like darkvision even on creatures that are explicitly blind. That said, it's entirely reasonable to say these aren't. Doesn't really save them from the trash heap though.

    That said, the flavor text does mention that they just float along whatever breeze takes them until they sense non-ectoplasmic brain activity. Still though, not explicitly blind.

    EDIT: And -0 it is. Time for the Blood Elemental.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2022-08-12 at 01:09 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles


    Size & Type: Medium Outsider
    Space/Reach: 5'/5'
    HD: 5, 6 (Large), 11 (Huge)
    Speed: 20', Swim 90'
    Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +8 - Net +22, no penalties
    Natural Armor: 9
    Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (1d8)
    Skill List: Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim
    Body Shape: Water Elemental made of blood
    Speech (Languages): "Yes" (Incomprehensible to all but each other)
    CR: 6
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: +0

    As mentioned when we rated the Blood Mother:
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Fluff text specifies that these are actually from an Outer Plane that some low level NPC nobody misidentified as the Elemental Plane of Blood which it very much isn't.
    (Also, the fluff text on this one gives a bit more detail than the Mother's did on said NPC, who is actually somewhat interesting.)

    They are immune to mind affecting, precision damage, and stunning. They have DR 5/magic.

    Its Bloodbath ability lets it engulf creatures up to its size into its bloody mass with a grapple check, potentially drowning them within itself. Surviving creatures that escape or are disgorged take 1d6 Wisdom damage as well as needing to make a Charisma-based Fortitude save vs 2d6 rounds of nausea.

    Once per day, a Blood Elemental can use a CL13 Insanity spell as a Su ability, with a Charisma-based save to avoid.

    Just like the Mothers before them, Blood Elementals are Incomprehensible. Their gurgling language can only be understood by Blood Elementals and Blood Mothers, and they can not understand any other kind of verbal communication. Even magical translation is useless. A Pearl of Speech should work in theory, because they let a creature speak a specific language. Might not though, and possibly less likely to work than with a Mother. Magical translation specifically doesn't work to translate the language of Blood Mothers/Elementals.

    The Blood Mother primarily got its -0 rating because it was Epic level. This thing on the other hand has almost comparable stats; a little over a third of the net total ability scores with about a fifth of the RHD, and most of the same abilities. And hey, if you decide you want to be big like mommy, you only need one more RHD to be Large.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2022-08-21 at 07:58 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    There was even a question of the Blood Mother being +0 because it also has 13th level cleric casting (and +20 Dex). This one is an outsider‚ but otherwise has low stats for a Medium grappler. Granted‚ it's a great rider on grappling‚ but being Medium is bad. I honestly think I'd rather play the Large version for 1 RHD more. Insanity is devastating on PCs but lackluster on monsters‚ and DR/magic is bad. I'm torn between +0 and -0‚ but I think I'll go with LA-0.(Edit: make that LA+0)


    Also‚ that weird backstory means that this is probably the only monster with "Elemental" in the name that isn't an Elemental. Does that mean it qualifies for Bloodstained template? That would be very flavorful.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-08-12 at 05:47 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    I know Charisma isn't solely about physical attractiveness, but I still get a kick out of something like an amorphous man-sized bloodblob having +8 Cha.

    -0 from me, but not the least salvageable -0.

    Re: Bloodstained, that would require soaking blood in blood, wouldn't it? That seems like a "can water be wet?" situation.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    The fluff of bloodsoaked says that the creature's base material needs to be drenched in blood. How do you imagine blooddrenched blood?

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

    If you advance it to Large, you get a bunch more stat boosts, and grappling suddenly becomes a very attractive strategy. Elemental HD aren't great, but the immunities that they come with help make up for the weaker base stats (and this one even has bonus mind-affecting immunity). The ability bonuses are above par for the ECL, averaging a very impressive +4.4/HD at Medium or +5.3/HD at Large, and the high Charisma here also allows for a smooth and easy transition into a paladin type, and potentially combos well with SLA-granting templates. Insanity kind of sucks, but at least it'll have a good save DC. I think the blood elemental compares well against a human with comparable class levels.

    I'm going with +0, but I could be talked up to +1.

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