The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Tzardok]

I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants, because I forgot plants were immune to crits, or because I forgot about plants.

Plants? What's that? Can you eat that?

[Metastachydium]

I can't decide whether to say it's because there are hardly any interesting plants

WHAT? Treant's a classic (and their cousins, the grumpy wizened elder and the oversized cactus person saguaro sentinel are way cute), volodni would be the best race ever were it not for the +2 LA, adu'ja's are fun, greenbound's a crazy strong template, shambling mounds with their whole "don't mind me, I'm just a playable heap of sapient plant matter punching stuff and trying to get hit by lightning" are made of awesome (I love them!) and then there's stuff like oaken defenders and twig blights and more! How can you say that?

Probably “yes”.

Plants? What's that? Can you eat that?

Now I hate you both.

[Beni-Kujaku]

[Sighs.] Because Plants. Why does everyone keep forgetting about Plants?

Aren't you the one who forgot that Plants are not weak to fire a few months ago ?

But yeah, you can't ignore the type that brought us the great, often-copied, never matched, the shrieker fungus!


Edit: also, Thurbane, MM6 is missing Vanara, from the same place as Vaati (Mahasarpa campaign). And Spellsong Nightingale.

[Metastachydium]

Aren't you the one who forgot that Plants are not weak to fire a few months ago ?

[GRUMPY.] I know I am (vulnerable to fire, that is). (Also, why do you have to have so good a memory? It's not fair!)

But yeah, you can't ignore the type that brought us the great, often-copied, never matched, the shrieker fungus!

The list of people I hate now grows longer and longer.

Edit: also, Thurbane, MM6 is missing Vanara, from the same place as Vaati (Mahasarpa campaign)

Does it differ from the OA version significantly enough to warrant a separate entry here?

[Tzardok]

The list of people I hate now grows longer and longer.

You want to say your hatred grows, thrives and flowers?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Does it differ from the OA version significantly enough to warrant a separate entry here?

Oh, absolutely not, it's the exact same, I just read the statblock and saw that it wasn't in the "reprinted in other books" section of MM6, so I assumed it was only Web. I was mistaken.

[Metastachydium]

You want to say your hatred grows, thrives and flowers?

…
I might take you off of the list.

[Thurbane]

• Medium Undead
• 5 RHD (d12 HD, poor BAB, good Will save, 4 skill points/"level")
• Speed 30 ft
• +5 natural AC
• 2 claws 1d4 plus entropic touch
• Entropic touch: Cha based fort save or take 1d4 Str and 1d4 Con drain. Affects most living creature types.
• DR 5/bludgeoning
• Darkvision 60 ft
• Immunity to cold
• Undead traits
• Str +6, Dex +6, Con --, Cha +2: net +14, on non-ability, no penalties.
• Small, but useful, skill list.

Basically medium humanoid in shape; no mention of speaking or not.

I dunno, I don't think these are as awful as most people have said. I mean, 5 RHD is bad, especially being poor BAB when you're likely to be a melee type. Maybe for a skillmonkey/stealth build?

If you go full BAB you can still hit +16 by ECL 20, and you go initiator, you can still get 9ths. I'd maybe go for a stealthy Swordsage build.

I'm going to vote +0, but only just barely.

[GreatWyrmGold]

WHAT? Treant's a classic (and their cousins, the grumpy wizened elder and the oversized cactus person saguaro sentinel are way cute), volodni would be the best race ever were it not for the +2 LA, adu'ja's are fun, greenbound's a crazy strong template, shambling mounds with their whole "don't mind me, I'm just a playable heap of sapient plant matter punching stuff and trying to get hit by lightning" are made of awesome (I love them!) and then there's stuff like oaken defenders and twig blights and more! How can you say that?

I would argue with several of those, especially the ones whose reason for being interesting revolves around mechanical strength. When you whittle it down to shambling mounds, treants, and treant variants that dilute the original treant's interesting-ness more than they add anything new...maybe oaken defenders if they had meaningful lore beyond "dryad bodyguards, have a life cycle," maybe adu'jas if I could find any decent information on them, but even if there were five whole interesting plant monsters, that's less than the other types. Most are just "boring monster, made of wood".

[danielxcutter]

Ironglass roses are interesting. Also under-CRed but still interesting.

[Metastachydium]

I would argue with several of those, especially the ones whose reason for being interesting revolves around mechanical strength. When you whittle it down to shambling mounds,

Greenbound's not just strong, you know and the likes of shambling mound are more delightfully quirky than just "dumb brute, hits hard".

treants, and treant variants that dilute the original treant's interesting-ness more than they add anything new...

Wizened elders are grumpy shrubs that can speak with all plants all day every day and are kind of playable while saguaro sentinels are immune to dehydration and Horrid Wilting because they are cacti full of water. How that diminishes the treant is beyond me.

maybe oaken defenders if they had meaningful lore beyond "dryad bodyguards, have a life cycle,"

Again, they are weird and quirky and I like that. WotClore is usually pretty stupid, so I often feel like the less a critter's burdened with the better.

maybe adu'jas if I could find any decent information on them,

So photosynthetizing player races with (among other fun stuff) literal bark for skin (volodni (and it gives something other than DR)) and pretty flower people who are very social and can regrow stuff like a proper planty (adu'ja) are "kind of meh"? Man, that feels wrong.

but even if there were five whole interesting plant monsters,

Come on! That's not the ful list, just some highlights. There's also the (very differently) mininonmancing crazy plant creatures like the yellow musk creeper and the orcwort, the shaped garden bush chasing around tresspassers (topiary guardian) and MORE!

that's less than the other types.

Oh yeah. Plants can't compete with such gloriously varied types as oozes and constructs (mostly same-y minor variations on a kind of bland theme or painfully silly stuff). And let's not even get into what most undead look like (big heap of rotting flesh, big heap of rotting flesh that drains stats/levels, same in incorporeal, skeleton, a different kind of skeleton, slightly more intelligent rotting heap of flesh/skeleton, two skeletons fused awkwardly together &c. &c.).

Ironglass roses are interesting. Also under-CRed but still interesting.

I have a certain fondness for the udoroot as well, I must admit (even though it's not taht good).

♣

Back on topic, I kind of want to give the elhoriad a +0 here (goodish stats, immunities, messing with STR and CON, no gear-related issues), but it's still kind of on the weak side.

[Caelestion]

I'm on the fence here. If it had 4 HD, I think it would be a solid +0, but with 5 HD, it's low +0 at best. I think I'll err on the side of caution: -0 LA.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'm on the fence here. If it had 4 HD, I think it would be a solid +0, but with 5 HD, it's low +0 at best. I think I'll err on the side of caution: -0 LA.

Agree with that.

[Debatra]

A fairly clear -0. I keep wanting to disagree with that, but then I remember that those are Undead RHD. This is a relatively strong -0, but it doesn't quite make the cut for the price you pay for it. Next up is the Ember Spawn.

That said, I have somewhere to be soon, so it'll be a while. In the meantime, I'd like to ask for some help finding the statistics for the Adult Ember Spawn. MM6 currently only has the Larval form, which references alternate stats for an Adult which don't appear in the same PDF.

[Beni-Kujaku]

A fairly clear -0. I keep wanting to disagree with that, but then I remember that those are Undead RHD. This is a relatively strong -0, but it doesn't quite make the cut for the price you pay for it. Next up is the Ember Spawn.

That said, I have somewhere to be soon, so it'll be a while. In the meantime, I'd like to ask for some help finding the statistics for the Adult Ember Spawn. MM6 currently only has the Larval form, which references alternate stats for an Adult which don't appear in the same PDF.

These magazines were one-shots and as far as I know the monsters they depict weren't printed anywhere else. I have read the article a few times and searched on the internet a bit the first time I read this‚ and the adult form doesn't appear in it‚ or anywhere else on the web it seems. The whole life cycle was already a pretty clear asterisk (what with becoming a disease and dying if the guy makes the save‚ or losing your character for weeks if they don't)‚ this is just even more obvious.

[Debatra]

Oh well. Would have been interesting to see how different they are. Especially since the larvae are Fine. The adult apparently gets up to six inches, which brings it right to the border with Diminutive.

Anyway...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oh well. Would have been interesting to see how different they are. Especially since the larvae are Fine. The adult apparently gets up to six inches, which brings it right to the border with Diminutive.

Anyway...

I don't think we would have lost much. The ember spawns are said to be "most dangerous to humanoids" when in larval form. So the adult is less dangerous than a monster whose powers can be summarized as "jumps‚ deals one damage as it enters your skin‚ then give you like 20 saves and a dozen chances for a DC 15 Heal check before actually doing anything‚ and even when it does‚ the only real effect is being blinded".

I suspect the adult would be "the same‚ but diminutive‚ 30ft flying speed‚ bite deals an additional 1d2 fire damage‚ no anesthetic‚ can lay eggs that hatch after a few weeks"

[Debatra]

Ember Spawn Larva
PDF Link, stats start on page 14.

Size & Type: Fine Vermin
Space/Reach: 6"/0'
HD: 1/4
Speed: 30', Climb 5'
Ability Scores: Str -10, Dex +10, Con +0, Int -, Wis +0, Cha -2 - Net -2, two penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1 plus attach)
Skill List: Climb (+8 racial, uses Dex, Skill Mastery), Hide, Jump (+8 racial, uses Dex)
Body Shape: Larva
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0* (Advancement to Adult stage)

First thing's first, we're asterisking the ability to advance to an Adult Ember Spawn. Partly because the statblock doesn't seem to exist, and partly because this would probably increase its HD, which we like to avoid. It's a shame too, because the adult seems to have wings and would probably be all-around better. That said, I'll be keeping the Flesh Burrow and Disease otherwise-unaltered since you could still use them, even if it would be a suicidally-bad idea to attempt it.

Immunity to fire is good to have, even with the standard cold vulnerability that comes with it. Improved Initiative is always nice as a bonus feat too. They can also pinpoint the location of any heat source, including warm-blooded creatures, within 60', even if the surrounding heat is larger. So a desert or a burning building won't hide anything from you. That said, an infestation of at least six Ember Spawns in a single host will chill their body to the point where you can't detect them this way. (I'm so sure that will be relevant...) Your mandibles excrete an anesthetic that numbs the pain of your bite, making the wounds you inflict undetectable to the victim except by sight. I can only imagine the sneaky shenanigans you could pull with that.

Notably, you have a built-in way to get around your lack of reach: Leaping Chomp. With a DC 20 Jump check, you can hurl yourself at a target within 5' and attempt your bite attack. It even becomes a ranged attack, meaning you use your far superior Dexterity for the attack roll. No attacks of opportunity, but it's still nice to have.

Whenever you hit something with your bite, regardless of whether it's in regular melee or your Leaping Chomp, you can automatically attach yourself to the target. So Improved Grab without a size limit and automatic success on the initial grapple check. And to compensate for your Fine size and abysmal Strength score on future rolls, you have a +20 racial bonus on grapple checks. There's got to be a few ways to abuse that. To be removed via grappling, you need to be pinned.

---

And now we come to the parts that we mostly don't care about. The bits that are essentially useless without the ability to advance to the Adult stage. For starters, if you begin your turn Attached to a creature, you can automatically burrow into their flesh, appearing as a lump in their skin. You get a +5 circumstance bonus to Hide while so burrowed. Oh yeah, and you have to shed your legs to do this.

Once inside, the victim must make a fortitude save (whose DC appears to be a flat 14, +1 for each other Ember Span inside them). And if they succeed, you die.

On a failure, you are from then on considered a disease (including the ability to be rid of you with disease-removing magic, implicitly though not explicitly killing you in the process). You feed and incubate for one hour, after which the host must make another save each day, taking 1 point of Con and Cha damage and 1d2 nonlethal cold damage. Taking cold damage like this fatigues them until it's healed. The cold damage also doesn't heal naturally unless the host is either bundled up warmly or near a heat source. Two successful saves in a row, you die. If someone makes a DC15 Heal check on the host, you die. If you're cut out with a slashing weapon (a successful attack against you, for which you have 20% concealment), you die.

After surviving inside your host for a week, you assume pupa form. The Con and Cha damage stops, but not the nonlethal cold damage. You can no longer be killed by a Heal check or by being physically cut out, and the host's fortitude DC increases by five. Three weeks later, you have grown into an Adult Ember Spawn, emerging from one of the host's eye sockets (or elsewhere if they have none). This deals 1 Con damage (which creatures immune to crits are immune to), 1d6 untyped damage, and blinds the eye you came out through.

---

Honestly, these things are a bit better than I expected them to be. So small, yet with 30' movement speed, a way around 0' reach, and a lot of potential for being a sneaky little bastard. And being a 1-RHD creature is always nice.

[H_H_F_F]

These could make for hilarious Binder (Zagan) grapplers. You'd turn the -16 fir fine size to a +4 for being virtually large, and you'd keep the +20 racial bonus.

Pretty good stuff overall. Can someone remind me what's our policy regarding the benefits of being mindless?

[Debatra]

Like with animal intelligence, we just assume some non-specific way to get to at least three Int.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It's a shame most of the information about these things is lost, because they sound neat. I'm a sucker for monsters with interestingly complicated life cycles, and this sounds like a xenomorph crossed with a trematode ( the archetypical interestingly complicated life cycle). Of course, the Ecology segment makes it sound like the adults are more dragonfly-ish—the larva did everything interesting the critter's gonna do, the adult is just there to mate, lay eggs, and die. Which is a disappointing waste of a facehugger, if you ask me.

Life cycle nerd aside, it probably wouldn't be much fun to play. Aside from a Dexterity of 20 and a +20 racial bonus on Grapple checks, it doesn't have anything. There are some niche builds which can use it, but I feel like you'd get a better grappler from a race with thumbs, item slots, or at minimum a natural attack that doesn't basically kill you.

-0. You can't make this a PC without stripping it of everything that makes it interesting.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That said, I'll be keeping the Flesh Burrow and Disease otherwise-unaltered since you could still use them, even if it would be a suicidally-bad idea to attempt it.

Whenever you hit something with your bite, regardless of whether it's in regular melee or your Leaping Chomp, you can automatically attach yourself to the target. So Improved Grab without a size limit and automatic success on the initial grapple check. And to compensate for your Fine size and abysmal Strength score on future rolls, you have a +20 racial bonus on grapple checks. There's got to be a few ways to abuse that. To be removed via grappling, you need to be pinned.

For starters, if you begin your turn Attached to a creature, you can automatically burrow into their flesh, appearing as a lump in their skin.

That's not true. As written‚ Flesh Burrow is not optional. If you begin your turn attached‚ you automatically burrow. That makes the creature's bite attack useless and suicidal by itself‚ and Zagan-based grappling no less hilarious but much more dangerous to yourself (except as a Totemist with improved Grab I guess). Still‚ you are a Fine creature with no RHD and decent movement. 20 Dex and Fine mean the equivalent of +13 to touch AC‚ and a potential Wisdom based manifester will absolutely love it. Does this outvalue the inability to speak and use items? I guess you could make something out of it. LA+0 for me.

[Debatra]

That's not true. As written‚ Flesh Burrow is not optional. If you begin your turn attached‚ you automatically burrow. That makes the creature's bite attack useless and suicidal by itself‚ and Zagan-based grappling no less hilarious but much more dangerous to yourself (except as a Totemist with improved Grab I guess). Still‚ you are a Fine creature with no RHD and decent movement. 20 Dex and Fine mean the equivalent of +13 to touch AC‚ and a potential Wisdom based manifester will absolutely love it. Does this outvalue the inability to speak and use items? I guess you could make something out of it. LA+0 for me.

We've been consistently treating those "the creature automatically does X" and similarly-worded abilities as optional up to this point unless it's clear that it's mandatory. Otherwise a lot of monsters' preferred tactics would be mandatory since they're mentioned in the relevant abilities' descriptions.

[remetagross]

They're fun little critters. The fact they only get 1 RHD is neat, and vermins have immunity to mind-affecting effects as an added perk. I'll go with LA+0.

[ciopo]

Does it have 1 RHD, or would it be supplanted by class HD at 1st level like it happens for humanoids?

If it has "0RHD" by virtue of that 1/4HD the combination of size and racial bonuses and ability modifiers are enough for a +1 to me, otherwise +0

[loky1109]

I think about LA +1.

[Metastachydium]

They're fun little critters. The fact they only get 1 RHD is neat, and vermins have immunity to mind-affecting effects as an added perk. I'll go with LA+0.

Vermins only have that beacuse they are Mindless. Once they gain an INT scre, the immunity should arguably go away.

♣

I'm thoroughly confused, I have to say. Yes, fine size is cool, yes it's a funny monster and yes, it has some ludicrous numbers, but it will struggle to put on any gear, use any weapon with any degree of efficacy, cast spells (no language, no chance it can use material components, might have issues with somatic ones). Alright, it grapples stuff. So far so good(ish; grappling's, well, grappling). And then what?

For now, I'll put a -0 here.

[H_H_F_F]

Vermins only have that beacuse they are Mindless. Once they gain an INT scre, the immunity should arguably go away.

♣

I'm thoroughly confused, I have to say. Yes, fine size is cool, yes it's a funny monster and yes, it has some ludicrous numbers, but it will struggle to put on any gear, use any weapon with any degree of efficacy, cast spells (no language, no chance it can use material components, might have issues with somatic ones). Alright, it grapples stuff. So far so good(ish; grappling's, well, grappling). And then what?

For now, I'll put a -0 here.

A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents. These things can wiggle something, I'm sure. Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one.

It's doable, and I can see it being worth it for fine size.

[Metastachydium]

A spellcasting creature can always use somatic componnents.

What about a celestial shrieker?

Nonverbal spell feat could take care of any language issue, if there is one.

No language should count as such, I reckon.

It's doable, and I can see it being worth it for fine size.

One could just go Sparrow Hengeyokai and stay in little sparrow form all the time. It comes with a 50' fly speed, much better stats and the ability to assume a form two forms that have none of the drawbacks associated with being a decidedly non-humanoid fine creature.

This ember larva something is literally worse for every purpose other than grappling which it has precious little to do with. I don't see the appeal, let alone the +1s.

[Ripptor]

I was hoping to find a recording of the live session this were created in, but no such luck. I imagine the Adult might still only have 1 RHD (but a full one, not 1/4 as-is here).

I'm on the fence between -0 and +0, since most of the fun stuff is non-PC (and un-statted) and the rest difficult to use effectively, but I'm sure there's something that could be done. I do like the 60' Heat Sense and +20 Grapple, but the lack of hands, item slots, and speech push this towards -0 for me.