The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[GreatWyrmGold]

The thing is, rules-wise, a bat-swarm can't bite you to transmit the lycanthropy, and in-universe, if a swarm of werebats bites you, then you just become a werebat, not a swarm of werebats (or a wereswarm of bats? A were of batswarms?). Even Curse of Lycanthropy (unintentionally) prevents it by putting the lower size limit to Small.

Point #1: Natural lycanthropes don't need to be bitten. RAW, this is the only argument you need. (RAI, you don't really need any argument, they just omitted the obvious.)
Point #2: A werebatswarm can still transform into its hybrid form, which gains a bite attack (and two claw attacks) as per the lycanthrope template's description.
Point #3: What do you think bat swarms are doing when they swarm-attack someone? Tentacle attacks?


Now, saying that you'd just become a werebat if you were bitten by a werebat swarm is a fair point. However, a werebat swarm is a swarm of werebats, not a were(bat swarm). A bat swarm is a completely distinct Animal-type monster from a bat! So saying that someone bitten by a werebatswarm would become a werebat makes as little sense as saying that someone bitten by a werewolf lord (weredirewolf) would become a werewolf, or that someone bitten by a were(brown)bear would become a wereblackbear or werepolarbear.

[Tzardok]

I'll vote for +1.

[No brains]

Swarm-lycanthropes are silly, but even sillier are were-mobs. A mob of humanoids from cityscape can be bitten by a killer whale to make Ermac, the were Orca. We are many.

RAI, could a mob of humans be bit by a swarm of bats to produce a werebat mobswarm?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Swarm-lycanthropes are silly, but even sillier are were-mobs. A mob of humanoids from cityscape can be bitten by a killer whale to make Ermac, the were Orca. We are many.

RAI, could a mob of humans be bit by a swarm of bats to produce a werebat mobswarm?

I like the way you're thinking, but A. mobs don't have nearly as many members as swarms, so you'd need each human to become something like 50 bats, and B. you forgot to specify "bit by a swarm of werebats".

[Morphic tide]

RAI, could a mob of humans be bit by a swarm of bats to produce a werebat mobswarm?

RAI, no, because it should not need mentioning that Mobs are not supposed to function as a unitary creature for template acquisition. RAW, probably in the event that Swarm of Bats is a Lycanthrope who's "base animal" is a Bat Swarm. If I were to write up such a thing "clean sheet" to smooth over some of the wonkiness and flesh out some thematic stuff, I'd go with a community of Kobolds who are Were-Vipers. Tiny Vipers get a Swarm in Fiend Folio, while also having an individual creature entry, so the Kobolds can be Were-Vipers while the Mob as a whole is a Were-Swarm.

When they have some forewarning to organize the Mob, the "Base Creature" is their Dragonwrought Totemist/Sorcerer. Which makes those 30 HD into Dragon HD with the all good saves, full BAB, and d12 HP, plus the 5 HD from Viper Swarm. Using Vipers brings 1d6 Con-damage Poison with the DC of 30 HD. Totemist has plenty of choices that carry over to the Mob, while Sorcerer qualifies for Share Soulmeld and can have a Tiny Viper Familiar that "rolls into" the Mob-Swarm, giving ludonarrative resonance to the entire setup so it's less Silly RAW Abuse to carry things over.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I just realized that there's a problem with mob were-swarms.

Size and Type: A mob is a Gargantuan creature composed of either forty-eight Small or Medium creatures or twelve Large creatures. The mob’s type remains unchanged from the base creature.

And as I'm sure you remember, swarms have the same size as their individual member organisms. A viper swarm is Tiny, but a kobold mob is Gargantuan.


That said, by RAW it's still possible to have a mermaid mob werewhale—that is, a bunch of mermaids who Voltron into a whale. Elephants, rocs, giant snakes/squids/sharks, some dire animals, and dinosaurs are also valid, as are some weird things like sea tigers and bilge eels.

[Morphic tide]

I just realized that there's a problem with mob were-swarms.

And as I'm sure you remember, swarms have the same size as their individual member organisms. A viper swarm is Tiny, but a kobold mob is Gargantuan.

The Were-Mob is taking on its Animal Form of a Viper Swarm, not its Hybrid Form, so it takes on the size of the Animal in question. Just like the example Were-Rat becomes a Small Dire Rat. Granted, they'd probably be a "Viper Swarm" without the Swarm subtype, because Lycanthropy keeps the Type unchanged save adding the Shapechanger subtype. With all the rules issues, it really is better to just 'brew up a new template or stat it out as a bespoke creature. Swarm-Shifter is Undead-specific, to boot!

[Beni-Kujaku]

I just realized that there's a problem with mob were-swarms.

That's 3.0 wording. Swarms were described as Medium creatures composed of smaller creatures.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That's 3.0 wording. Swarms were described as Medium creatures composed of smaller creatures.

Ah, so it is! So an ogre were-viper-swarm is weirdly viable. But unfortunately...

The Were-Mob is taking on its Animal Form of a Viper Swarm, not its Hybrid Form, so it takes on the size of the Animal in question. Just like the example Were-Rat becomes a Small Dire Rat. Granted, they'd probably be a "Viper Swarm" without the Swarm subtype, because Lycanthropy keeps the Type unchanged save adding the Shapechanger subtype. With all the rules issues, it really is better to just 'brew up a new template or stat it out as a bespoke creature. Swarm-Shifter is Undead-specific, to boot!

...a mob is a Gargantuan creature, not a Small or Large one. The mob is Gargantuan, the swarm is Medium, that's three sized apart instead of one.

You have a point about the subtype, though. By the same token, that means that fish lycanthropes don't gain the (aquatic) subtype and can't breathe water. Man, D&D RAW is weird.

[Debatra]

+0 - Remuko
+1 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, Inevitability, Thurbane, loky1109, Tzardok

Sorry about the delays. I've been a little burnt out lately, but I'm back. Next on the docket is the Euralden Eye.

[Debatra]

Euralden Eye

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Psionic)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 9, 15 (Large)
Speed: 40', CLimb 20'
Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +20, no penalties
Natural Armor: 9
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d8), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
Skill List: Climb (+8 racial, Skill Mastery), Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot (+8 racial)
Body Shape: Ball of bones and limbs.
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 7
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

As skeletal undead, they are immune to cold on top of the normal undead immunities and have the usual DR 5/bludgeoning.

They have a handful of at-will PLAs at ML5. Catfall (50'), Control Light, Detect Psionics, Energy Stun (Sonic), Eradicate Invisibility, Recall Agony.

Their only special ability is Calcifying Cone, a gaze attack that forces living creatures within a 60' cone to make a Charisma-based fortitude save or take 1d6 Con damage as its flesh hardens into bone. Any creature slain by this ability becomes a statue of bone, and is animated (as in an animated object, not a skeletal undead) under the Eye's control within 1d4 rounds. However, this is not an uncapped spawn ability, as a Euralden Eye can only have animated statues of total HD up to its own, with anything beyond this limit being inanimate.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You know what time it is? It's Fuse Arms time!

Anyway, Calcifying cone is interesting but overall pretty slow and getting only your HD of controlled undead animated bone statues won't help you most of the time. At most you'll get a mount. The PLA also pale in comparison to what a warlock should be able to do, although the at-will is good. And melee fighting isn't an option when you're 5 BAB late. These PLAs and stats would be good around ECL 5. With 9 Undead RHD (and no Unholy Toughness, mind you), that's just not enough. I vote LA-0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Their only special ability is Calcifying Cone, a gaze attack that forces living creatures within a 60' cone to make a Charisma-based fortitude save or take 1d6 Con damage as its flesh hardens into bone. Any creature slain by this ability becomes a statue of bone, and is animated (as in an animated object, not a skeletal undead) under the Eye's control within 1d4 rounds. However, this is not an uncapped spawn ability, as a Euralden Eye can only have animated statues of total HD up to its own, with anything beyond this limit being inanimate.

I'll take something like this over a dozen "if you die to these negative levels you reanimate as a copy of this thing" undead any day.


The gaze attack is an at-will cone of Constitution damage, which seems a good bit better than anything a ninth-level warlock could pull off; I don't think I can call the Euralden Eye a -0. But with that as its only trick of note, I'm not sure I can justify giving it more than +0, especially when thinking about where it goes from here.

[Thurbane]

I don't have energy to invest in a detailed breakdown. "New stat block" + psionics gives me a double headache. I'm throwing my vote in with LA -0. Too many RHD.

[Debatra]

I'll take something like this over a dozen "if you die to these negative levels you reanimate as a copy of this thing" undead any day.

The flavor text actually mentions that they tend to hoard corpses to make more of themselves, but there don't appear to be any mechanics behind it. Seems we've dodged an asterisk-shaped bullet here.

[loky1109]

O vote for +0.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's been about three weeks since there was any activity here. Is there something wrong, Debatra? Should somebody temporarily take the role of chair?

[Debatra]

Sorry about that. Life's been nutty, especially this last week. It was definitely worth it in the end though.

Only three votes, but -0 takes it 2-1. Up next is the Faze.

[Debatra]

Faze

Size & Type: Huge Aberration (Extraplanar)
Space/Reach: 15'/10
HD: 5, 10 (Gargantuan)
Speed: Fly 80' (Good)
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +6 - Net +36, no penalties
Natural Armor: 6
Natural Weapons: Six Primary Tentacle Slams (1d8 plus improved grab, 1d6 constrict)
Skill List: Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana, Planes), Listen, Spot, Survival
Body Shape: "[R]esembles a jellyfish"
Speech (Languages): Uncertain. (I mean... Gather Information? That tends to require at least some way to communicate.)
CR: 5
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +2

Improved Grab for Large or smaller creatures, and SR of 16 is actually good for this level even though it doesn't scale. And six natural weapons are always fun to work with.

It has a handful of 3/day Psi-Like Abilities, though nothing amazing. Daze Monsters, Feather Fall, and Shatter.

Finally, it has Mind Drain. This ability needed one more round of editing. For example, there are two consecutive sentences mentioning the saving throw. I really hope that first sentence is just flavor, otherwise the ability actually doubles up on power. Actually, by strict RAW it becomes broken because it's a free action with no listed X/round limit. I believe the intent was for it to be an aura that the Faze can turn on or off as a free action.

Strictly as written, it can deal 1d4 Intelligence drain to all creatures within 50' as often as it likes as a free action, in addition to having a permanent aura that deals 1d4 Intelligence damage (I'm guessing per round?) at the same range. A will save (that appears to be but is not explicitly listed as Charisma-based) can negate the effect. Affected creatures must make a Wisdom check at the same DC to notice their lost Int, which is interesting. Also, this is mind-affecting.

I hate giving an asterisk to the things that make monsters unique, but strictly as written that ability is busted. Remove that first sentence entirely at it goes back to being reasonable. Or do you guys think I'm overreacting a bit here and it's actually okay? (EDIT: We have essentially agreed to just read it reasonably.)

[Beni-Kujaku]

How old is that statblock? Were swift actions invented by then? I'm pretty sure the intent is a 1/round.

Edit: so‚ that statblock dates back to 2003‚ August the 26th‚ just under two months before Miniatures Handbook‚ which first presented swift actions. I suggest we consider the ability as a swift action rather than a free action‚ which is much more faithful to the monster‚ and frame it as a dated rather than a problematic ability.

[loky1109]

How old is that statblock? Were swift actions invented by then? I'm pretty sure the intent is a 1/round.

It's clear 3.5.

I think Int drain should be 1/round free action. Plus once for everyone who approach.

In this case I'd give it at least +1. Maybe +2.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's clear 3.5.

I think Int drain should be 1/round free action. Plus once for everyone who approach.

In this case I'd give it at least +1. Maybe +2.

It's definitely 3.5. Only before swift actions were introduced.

What I find the most interesting is that it's a Huge grappler with 5RHD. In general‚ Huge creatures always have at least 8 RHD‚ and this one has an additional +4 racial modifier to grapple checks‚ for a total of +18‚ which is quite enormous‚ even more with so few RHD. +36 to stats is also really good‚ of course.
You're a jellyfish with sticky tentacles that is described as beautiful‚ that drains intelligence when it's got you grappled or even when you're just too close. What? Isn't that just the alpha version of nihilego?
And it's got a psionic theme‚ so going PsyWarrior would fit perfectly. I honestly think this deserves LA+2‚ which is one of the highest aberration ratings so far (not counting ethergaunts‚ of course).

[Metastachydium]

Are we just ignoring the 6 attacks with reach a feat away from dealing 2d6+STR each for those 5 HD? The thing's pretty low-STR for its size, but that's quite the attack routine before Improved Grab is factored in.

[danielxcutter]

Can someone explain the image joke for me?

[Temotei]

Can someone explain the image joke for me?

Card games are often divided into phases (in this case, Magic: The Gathering has Begin Phase, Main Phase 1, Combat Phase, Main Phase 2, and End Phase). Faze sounds like "phase."

[Beni-Kujaku]

Are we just ignoring the 6 attacks with reach a feat away from dealing 2d6+STR each for those 5 HD? The thing's pretty low-STR for its size, but that's quite the attack routine before Improved Grab is factored in.

Oh no, we're absolutely not forgetting about that. It's just that it is a big part of "Huge" and that this monster has so many good things, from mobility to combat effectiveness, that 6 attacks on a hand-less body isn't the most impressive in my opinion.

I really appreciate the will of the author to provide astral travellers with one half-safe place that they can use to settle before going on adventures. The Elserryn cluster and Crosswinds Keep plays a pretty similar role to that of the Rock of Bral in the Spelljammer setting, in that it's a plothook in the form of a location. The Astral lacked such a thing, and mostly only had dangerous locations.

[Debatra]

So we're thinking I was maybe a little overzealous in my evaluation of Mind Drain then?

[Beni-Kujaku]

So we're thinking I was maybe a little overzealous in my evaluation of Mind Drain then?

I personnally think that we'd better not asterisk away one of the most interesting abilities of the monster‚ especially when there is a simple real-life explanation in mistaking free and swift actions since swift actions were released immediately after.

What do you think‚ Temotei‚ danielxcutter‚ Metastachydium? How would you rate the Faze and what LA would you give it?

[Metastachydium]

Oh. Yeah. Right. That. I'll agree that your +2 is entirely warranted and I could be convinced to go higher yet. (Where's Remuko when I need a conservative estimate?)

[Thurbane]

Interesting one here. Ugh, so many psionic monsters online. Still, not all that psionic-y in flavour.

• Huge Aberration (extraplanar) with 10 ft reach (disappointing it isn't innately 15).
• 5 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, good Will save, and 2 skill points/"level").
• Fly 80 ft (good).
• +6 natural AC.
• 6 tentacle slams (1d8).
• Constrict, improved grab: huge size and +6 Str should make you a respectable grappler.
• Mind drain: ranged 1d4 Int drain, Will save to avoid.
• Psionics: 3/day Daze Monster, Feather Fall, and Shatter. Not terrible, but not all that powerful.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• SR 16: relevant at your starting level, but will fall away as you level.
• Str +6, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +36, no penalties!
• Smallish racial skill list, especially when you figure in that Int bonus. The list is a little underwhelming, but not totally useless.

Non-humanoid body type. A generous DM might let you use body-slots similar to a Grell. No language or ability to speak mentioned.

Huge size for 5 HD is already a pretty good deal. Flight as a high rate and good maneuverability is also pretty sweet. And those ability mods! Throw in 6 natural attacks, and innate grappling options. It's other special abilities are nice, but not amazing - although Mind Drain could be pretty effective at shutting down low Int/low will save enemies. [edit] Just realized this is a free, or maybe swift, action. That's pretty darn good. [/edit]

Progression? Martial adept could be good for these guys. Or with that Int modifier and 6 attacks, maybe Skillmonkey sneak-attacker?

I'm totally going to use these as a DM, or maybe in a VC in the future. Huge creatures for 5 HD/CR5 aren't all that common.

I'll agree with +2.

I picture them as looking vaguely like the Ocularon: