The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Tzardok]

Nope. Eldritch Blast resembles an invocation, but it's explicitly not one.

Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast is an invocation. How the hell did that happen?

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.

[No brains]

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.

Oh, yeah, nothing to do with each other. I don't know what came over me.

It probably originated as a typo and then someone just rolled with the joke (rolled like pie dough!). It's decently notable typo, with the r key being missed entirely. I wonder if there's a pir fiend that doesn't do anything besides sit equidistant between pit and pie fiends. It would still have powerful SLAs, but it doesn't really use them to any end.

[Tzardok]

Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast is an invocation. How the hell did that happen?

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.

Ahah! That's where it comes from. The translation incorporated the errata:

Page 8: Invocations and Eldritch Blast
Change this section as follows:
Invocations and Eldritch Blast: Eldritch blast is an invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new eldritch attacks.

So yes, Eldritch Blast is an invocation.

[loky1109]

Y'know, I was this close to coming on you like a avenging angel for being wrong, but then I looked it up in Complete Arcane to quote it, and you know what I found? The original text says you are right, but the German translation, which I used all the time in my game, says that the blast is an invocation. How the hell did that happen?

Bah, I'm too old to change my mind. In my games the blast continues to be an invocation.

It was errated if I remember correctly.

[Dimers]

And the pit fiend can quite easily max out its Greater Dispel with one ioun stone and two magic tattoos. Honestly, dispel spam can disable quite a lot of encounters all on its own. Especially if you take Arcane Mastery, you can basically automatically dispel or counter one spell per round.

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

SRD says "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell". It doesn't call out dispel magic as an exception to that rule, so in this case the question is moot.

[Brackenlord]

SRD says "Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell". It doesn't call out dispel magic as an exception to that rule, so in this case the question is moot.

Is it clear-cut and encompassing enough to trump the specific in Dispel Magic text? Or it's open to interpretation that a SLA can't counterspell a same name spell; or any SLA.

[Tzardok]

Is it clear-cut and encompassing enough to trump the specific in Dispel Magic text? Or it's open to interpretation that a SLA can't counterspell a same name spell; or any SLA.

The text as given in the Rules Compendium:

Spell-like abilities are subject to being dispelled by dispel magic and to spell resistance if the spell the ability resembles or duplicates is subject to spell resistance. They don't function in areas where magic is suppresed or negated, such as in an antimagic field. Spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

[Troacctid]

Specific beats general, so a spell-like ability such as greater dispel magic that specifically says it can counterspell can counterspell.

[Metastachydium]

Ahah! That's where it comes from. The translation incorporated the errata:



So yes, Eldritch Blast is an invocation.

My bad, then. (That's what I get for trusting the books proper!)

[Morphic tide]

It probably originated as a typo and then someone just rolled with the joke (rolled like pie dough!). It's decently notable typo, with the r key being missed entirely. I wonder if there's a pir fiend that doesn't do anything besides sit equidistant between pit and pie fiends. It would still have powerful SLAs, but it doesn't really use them to any end.

As a single word, it exists in Persian with a literal translation of "old person", later being adopted as a term for largely-independent religious teachers/minor spiritual leaders in Islam. I'd go with something local to the Infernal Battlefield of Acheron designed for some active mechanical expression of "fast-tracking" followers to becoming Fiends in truth, with inbuilt qualification for Fiend of Blasphemy.

The text as given in the Rules Compendium:

Pretty clear-cut that it's referencing the general Counterspelling rule, since Dispel Magic can dispel it, so by all rights a Greater Dispel Magic SLA should do the inverse.

[ciopo]

Subjected to being dispelled and subjected to being counterspelled isn't exactly the same, tho.

(I do agree that specific trumos general, but not because of the wording from rule compendium)

[Dimers]

Specific beats general, so a spell-like ability such as greater dispel magic that specifically says it can counterspell can counterspell.

I can understand that interpretation. My thinking is that the 'general' here is that greater dispel can counter and that the 'specific' is But Not When It's A SLA. *shrug* I'm not very invested, either way; I don't think I've actually played in a game where I've seen counterspelling used, so it doesn't feel like a big power difference to me.

[Debatra]

Counterspelling is useful if you bother with it. It's generally an underused mechanic for the simple reason that the game tends to reward acting rather than reacting. A counterspelled mage has simply lost their action. A dead mage gets no actions to lose.

[Thurbane]

I honestly don't know what to make of this joke monster. Let's say LA +1 for now.

BTW, does anyone remember an old (1E maybe) Dragon mag where they statted up Ronald McDonald (under a slightly different name) as an archfiend, who runs a chain of restaurants serving Stench Kow burgers?

Just tried searching for it on DragonDex, but no luck...

[edit] Found it: Dragon # 120. Dining Out in the Hells: A fast-food guide to the Lower Planes

Ronnell MaughDonnell. [/edit]

[liquidformat]

I can understand that interpretation. My thinking is that the 'general' here is that greater dispel can counter and that the 'specific' is But Not When It's A SLA. *shrug* I'm not very invested, either way; I don't think I've actually played in a game where I've seen counterspelling used, so it doesn't feel like a big power difference to me.

Yeah this reflects my thoughts and experience as well.

[Debatra]

+0 - liquidformat, H_H_F_F, Remuko
+1 - Dimers, loky1109, Tzardok, Brackenlord, Thurbane
+2 - remetagross, Beni-Kujaku, ciopo
+3 - AsuraKyoko
+4 - Troacctid

Sorry I've been away for a while, but it seems we have a +1. Next on the docket is the Devil Sail

[Debatra]

Devil Sail

Size & Type: Large Magical Beast (Aquatic)
Space/Reach: 10'/20'
HD: 9, 18 Huge
Speed: Swim 20'
Ability Scores: Str +8, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +8, four penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: One Primary Touch (1d10 acid, plus Con-based Fort or 2d4 Dex)
Skill List: Listen, Spot, Swim
Body Shape: Jellyfish
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 7
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

First thing: They aren't devils. Second thing: The Devil Sail has more RHD than AC. Zero natural armor.

So it can Improved Grab a creature at least one size category smaller than it, and it has a few PLAs. 3/day Dimension Slide and Painful Touch at ML 11, in addition to the attack/defense modes we can never figure out how to convert.

Finally, its Underwater Sense lets it detect any creature within 60' while under water. Though it's less effective at detecting creatures without nervous systems, like undead, oozes, and constructs. Such creatures can only be detected from 30' away. Figments never fool a Devil Sail under water, and there's no mention of that only being ones within range.

Yes, that's it. See you guys tomorrow.

[Troacctid]

Literally unplayable. Absolute garbage. Easy -0.

[Thurbane]

I'm not at all across psionics, but that looks like a lot of RHD for little gain. LA -0 from me.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Whaaaat? It has a touch attack Improved Grab with acid damage and a whopping +8 to ability scores! That alone should make it a +2! And since it's a magical beast, it has full BAB, so it's better than a fighter, so that's another +1. Oh wait, we aren't supposed to make believe we are at WotC? Okay, LA -0 it is.

[loky1109]

I don't think it's totally unplayable, but yeah, -Zero here.

[remetagross]

I find the concept of a psionic jellyfish oddly fitting. That said, it's still going to be a -0.

[Remuko]

CR is 2 below HD? Yeah def -0. Honestly its still probably over CRed. This thing has what 8 AC? 10 -1 Dex -1 Size yeah? 8 AC even with 9d10+36 HP is just...really bad. even at CR 5 this might be weak lol

[ciopo]

It doesn't even have the saving grace of more than one touchy feely when full attacking

[Troacctid]

I don't think it's totally unplayable, but yeah, -Zero here.

I think being unable to move and being unable to breathe are something of a sticking point.

[Tzardok]

Yeah, well, maybe don't play a jellyfish in a landbound campaign.

[loky1109]

I think being unable to move and being unable to breathe are something of a sticking point.

Devil Sail can say exactly the same for any land dweller.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, well, maybe don't play a jellyfish in a landbound campaign.

Devil Sail can say exactly the same for any land dweller.

Implying that there exist D&D campaigns taking place entirely underwater? Sounds fake to me. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about some mythical campaign that takes place entirely within dead magic zones.

[Tzardok]

Implying that there exist D&D campaigns taking place entirely underwater? Sounds fake to me. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me about some mythical campaign that takes place entirely within dead magic zones.

I am playing one right now. It's called "Real Life".

[ciopo]

I am playing one right now. It's called "Real Life".

That's what we want you to believe