The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... and that charge damage doubling should stack with Combat Brute and Shock Trooper as well. And of course Power Attack. Think there's some Tiger Claw maneuvers that synergize with having a bunch of attacks as well.

[loky1109]

Gravbeast sounds as +2 for me.

[Metastachydium]

Don't snakes eat baby birds? I would've though this would be the source of your dislike of cats.

Some snakes will sometimes do that, sadly, and I'm not happy about that as such, but y'see, snakes are at least respectable predators about them. They have lower populations, slower metabolism, less of a penchant for surplus killing and no single species of them is an invasive pest thst's just freaking everywhere.

Lamia was a demon.

Which, especially in a classical context, is about as meaningful and tight an umbrella term as "animal" or "monster".

Nosferatu was a vampire.

Nope. Originally, it is a corrupted form for an alleged name of a class of beings.

Fenrir/the Fenris Wolf was a wolf.

Okay, so?

Coatls (or whatever a given story calls them—I'm pretty sure I saw one that called them quetzals) are plumed serpents, or feathered serpents, or ampitheres.

The Couatl is named after a singular entity, and clearly based on it. There is no good species name available for it. Amphipteres are superficially similar, but of an entirely different origin, and more dragon-type animals than powerful Outsiders.

The Barghest was a black dog, or a hellhound if you're feeling poetic.
I could go on. I could also list examples like Empusa, where we can observe the transition from individual to kind in the historical record.

Okay, thank you. That is a second example besides Medusa, if a somewhat more obscure one. That's still not a "well-established pattern", nevertheless.

I'm sure you can invent a specific enough rule that includes all the individual-as-species examples you like and excludes all the ones you don't. Who cares? Words aren't used based on complicated definitions. We invent complicated definitions for words to explain how they're used.

I'll repeat it once more: I'm not coming up with a series of increasingly complicated definitions. I specified one criterion: whether there is a quasi-species or there isn't and applied that one criterion consistently. And the default convention seems to be "if it has a species-type name, that name is used; if it's a singular entity, its name can be generalized". A couple instances of sloppiness will not make me think sloppiness is a good idea, and certainly not by simple virtue of "some guy thought it might as well go".

[Beni-Kujaku]

Good stats (literally better than the displacer beast in every way) with bonuses where it needs them, massive pouncing capabilities, and weird gravity powers. Weird gravity powers, especially, are much better for a PC knowing what they do than for a monster in battle. Falling upwards over enemy fortifications is one thing, but it can technically bring everyone with it since it can cast levitate at will. Grappling and other combat maneuvers are nice (especially Trip, since it can spread it with each claw), but I wonder especially what happens exactly when it activates Personal Gravity. Can it instantly, with no action, go up 450ft (the distance one falls in one round)? Can it Pounce while falling down?
I find it extremely cool to imagine a fighter going for the kill on the Gravbeast, but it seems to jump just before the hit connects, goes up several hundred feet, then comes crashing back down, mauling the poor fighter, but I don't know it it is mechanically feasible.
Anyway, 6 claw attacks (2d6+Str, or even 5d6+Str if you take Powerful Charge, which you should) is plenty, and enough to remain competitive even much later in your progression. More concerningly, using something like Battle Leader's Charge to add 10 damage on each attack becomes extremely dangerous. I'm unclear on how doubling damage works with charging maneuvers. Does the bonus damage apply to each hit or just the first? Does it get doubled or is it only the damage from the claws?

All in all, despite the bad body type, I can agree on LA+2, and could be convinced to +3 depending on the answers to the above questions.


It's interesting to see that the gravbeast also hates blink dogs. It might be because blink dogs mistake them for displacer beasts and attack them on sight, or it might be for the same reason blink dogs and displacer beasts hate each other : their supernatural abilities interfere with each other. For the displacer beast, displacement and blink work in similar way, warping space at short range to scatter light and go through the Ethereal (in 2e, Phase Trap, which was a spell meant to prevent ethereal travel, could prevent a displacer beast's displacement, which means it even had something to do with the boundary between the two planes). And for the Gravbeast, since high amounts of gravity can warp space, to the point of creating wormholes (see the Umbral Blot), it probably interacts weirdly with a blink dogs natural Dimension Door, thus attracting the blink dog's wrath as well.

[danielxcutter]

Or it might just be a cat vs. dog thing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Or it might just be a cat vs. dog thing.

Oh, that's definitely the real-life origin, but it cannot be the in-universe explanation, or blink dogs would go around slaughtering lions, housecats, hellcats, sphinxes and (hahahahahahaha) sea cats, instead of specifically being out for displacer beast blood.

[Debatra]

Continued discussion of the names thing.

As I've already said, take it to its own thread at this point.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Which, especially in a classical context, is about as meaningful and tight an umbrella term as "animal" or "monster".

See, this is what I was saying about making up more specific rules to include examples you like and exclude ones you don't.

Nope. Originally, it is a corrupted form for an alleged name of a class of beings.

Mea culpa.

Okay, so?

"Fenrir," "fenris wolf," and other Fenrir derivatives are sometimes used to refer to various kinds of wolf monsters.

The Couatl is named after a singular entity, and clearly based on it.

What do you mean, the coatl? There are plenty of fantasy works where coatls are a whole species of winged serpents, including D&D!

Okay, thank you. That is a second example besides Medusa, if a somewhat more obscure one. That's still not a "well-established pattern", nevertheless.

How many examples will you demand I show you? How much BS will you throw at me to discredit them?

I'll repeat it once more: I'm not coming up with a series of increasingly complicated definitions. I specified one criterion: whether there is a quasi-species or there isn't and applied that one criterion consistently.

I didn't say it was something you had done, just something you could do, as a rhetorical segue into the next sentences. That said, you have already done that when you said "It has to be a category that I, subjectively, think is narrow and meaningful".

[Debatra]

Don't get me wrong; it's an interesting discussion, but it's somewhat derailing to the thread, especially since we've moved on to the next entry.

[truemane]

Metamgaic Mod: two points, everyone.

1. Let's stay on topic. If everyone just ignored off-topic tangents, they would stop being a problem.
2. Don't tell people where to post, even if you mean well, even if you think you're being helpful. Report all violations to the moderators and then ignore them.

Thanks, everyone.

[Debatra]

Anyway, trying to get back on topic.

Only Beni and loky have voted so far, both for +2. But I don't want to call it yet.

[danielxcutter]

What’s the closest comparison?

[Beni-Kujaku]

What’s the closest comparison?

A big bruiser with Pounce? Pretty obviously barbarian (Bear Warrior? Frenzied Berzerker?).

[Metastachydium]

Don't get me wrong; it's an interesting discussion, but it's somewhat derailing to the thread, especially since we've moved on to the next entry.

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Metamgaic Mod: two points, everyone.

1. Let's stay on topic. If everyone just ignored off-topic tangents, they would stop being a problem.

Copy that and sorry.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Anyway, trying to get back on topic.

Only Beni and loky have voted so far, both for +2. But I don't want to call it yet.

Is 42 days enough reflection to be ready to call it?

[Metastachydium]

I'd argue for that much. (Also, hah! Nobody cares about the stupid cats!)

[Debatra]

Only two votes, but both for +2 and it's been over a month.

I've left this sitting for too long, and real life is giving me some things to deal with (moving soon), but I'm not letting this die.

Gravewyrm is up next. A 60-HD Dragon. Does anyone even want to attempt to theorize what may be balanced for that level? (I'm still doing the writeup.)

EDIT: And then I see that Beni has gone ahead and DMed me one he did this morning. Go ahead and post it if you like. No sense in letting your work go to waste. I'll pick things back up after with the Gray Fungus.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Gravewyrm

See that skull? That was a Titan 6 seconds ago.

Size & Type: Huge Dragon
Space/Reach: 15'/15'
HD: 60, 81 Gargantuan
Speed: 90', Fly 150' (perfect)
Ability Scores: Str +32, Dex +40, Con +34, Int +22, Wis +28, Cha +46 - Net +202 (!!), no penalty
Natural Armor: 20 (+10 insight)
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (2d8), four Secondary Claws (2d6), 2 Secondary Wings (1d8), 3 Secondary Tails (2d6)
Skill List: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (architecture and engineering), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device
Body Shape: Three-tailed skeletal dragon
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic, "large number of additional languages")
CR: 45
WotC LA: -
Our LA: __

You know how Corellon Larethian gets +128 to its base stats compared to a human? Well the Gravewyrm gets almost twice as much. It may have actually been in the running for the official monster with the biggest ability score bonus, if it wasn't for the absurdity of Old and older epic dragons. And the rest of its abilities are no slouch either.

The gravewyrm has a clear undead aesthetic, being healed by both positive and negative energy, being surrounded by a permanent death knell aura affecting any creature in a 30ft radius, and being able to Command Undead at will as a 60th level cleric, which is just enough to control the strongest non-epic undead, and just shy of controlling relevant epic undead. I'm still unsure if being able to command undead counts as turn undead for the purpose of divine feats and DMM.

Then, it has a breath weapon (90ft cone, 1d4 rounds cooldown) dealing 3d6 negative levels, Reflex half. And if that wasn't enough, each of its eight natural attacks deal 4 negative levels as well.

As defenses‚ it is immune to death effects‚ has SR 56‚ the nigh-impassable DR 25/epic and good and silver and resistance 30 to cold‚ acid and electricity.

And of course, it has a whole slew of CL 60th SLAs, from at-will haste, displacement, greater teleport and inflict critical wounds, to 3/day harm, heal and wail of the banshee, to the epic but underpowered spell demise unseen.

Against creatures not immune to negative levels, the Gravewyrm is an absolute menace. But could it hold its own so deep into epic levels? I doubt it.

[danielxcutter]

Let's see... oh, no actual spellcasting? LA -0. Planar dragons (which don't get actual casting but do get loads of SLAs IIRC) get more SLAs than that. Warlocks get more SLAs than that, arguably without having to go Epic. Those aren't absolutely horrible SLAs, but a fighter could probably cast them from scrolls via UMD even with cross-class skill rates at that point. Also, negative levels and death effects are rather less impressive when Death Ward is available at single-digit levels when this thing doesn't have any dispelling abilities.

Though honestly this is partly kneejerk given that its CR is much lower than its RHD.

[Debatra]

Take it up to level 80 and you can maybe potentially get unlimited DMM depending on your DM's ruling.

That's totally worth having that many levels, right?

[Metastachydium]

Take it up to level 80 and you can maybe potentially get unlimited DMM depending on your DM's ruling.

That's totally worth having that many levels, right?

Yes! That's just a billion XP away from level 81 where you get to be Gargantuan!

♣

In other news, this is surprisingly good compared to what I expected to see. That said… You can keep it, Beni.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Let's see... oh, no actual spellcasting? LA -0. Planar dragons (which don't get actual casting but do get loads of SLAs IIRC) get more SLAs than that. Warlocks get more SLAs than that, arguably without having to go Epic. Those aren't absolutely horrible SLAs, but a fighter could probably cast them from scrolls via UMD even with cross-class skill rates at that point. Also, negative levels and death effects are rather less impressive when Death Ward is available at single-digit levels when this thing doesn't have any dispelling abilities.

I mean... Would you have said that if it only had 40 RHD? Or 30? Or if it had +100 in all stats? I'm not saying that the Gravewyrm is anything more than -0, but reducing it to "yes spellcasting" or "no spellcasting" and to its number of SLAs feels both very contrived and kind of hypocritical. Of course it has less SLAs than a warlock, that is the point of a warlock. But you know what it has? +16 to its DCs compared to one who invested all ASIs in Charisma, +50 AC and an average of +20 to its saves. Its litterally the difference between succeeding only on a 1 and failing only on a 20, or between a monster dealing +30 damage per attack with Power Attack and it not being able to hit you at all.
Disregarding any stats over the ability to cast spells that any creature at this level will always save against goes against the very core of this thread, which is not assuming that every monster will be a spellcaster.
Deep epic is a weird place, and ratings there are as nebulous as the inner workings of a time dragon's travels, but it does not mean that numbers and unique abilities don't matter anymore, and if it did, then everything would be equally unplayable.

Yes! That's just a billion XP away from level 81 where you get to be Gargantuan!

That's actually so weird. Dragons tend to become colossal around the 40 RHD threshold. Even the Glacierdrak in the same article is so much bigger than it with 16 fewer RHD. How is the Gravewyrm so small? It's the size of a Prismatic Wyrmling, for crying out loud!

[Metastachydium]

That's actually so weird. Dragons tend to become colossal around the 40 RHD threshold. Even the Glacierdrak in the same article is so much bigger than it with 16 fewer RHD. How is the Gravewyrm so small? It's the size of a Prismatic Wyrmling, for crying out loud!

It's skeletal, and most of the rest is tails. Of course it's lightweight!

[Tzardok]

That's actually so weird. Dragons tend to become colossal around the 40 RHD threshold. Even the Glacierdrak in the same article is so much bigger than it with 16 fewer RHD. How is the Gravewyrm so small? It's the size of a Prismatic Wyrmling, for crying out loud!

They don't eat that well because they are picky (only fresh undead) and constantly use their food as servants instead.

Alternate explanations include: negative energy stunts growth; they always stand with two feet in the grave so they just seem smaller (what did you think why they are called gravewyrms?); they've adapted to smaller locations (have you ever seen a graveyard that could fit a colossal dragon?); something something bonsai dragon.

[Remuko]

Thats a lot of HD for that size. Creatures rarely have so many HD but when they do theyre usually much larger. "Only" huge until 81 HD is wild. Also +40 dex? on a dragon? thats also nearly unheard of. this thing is WEIRD.

60 is a lot of HD and its CR is 45 so yeah its still probably easy -0 but good lord what an odd duck!

[Debatra]

Gray Fungus

Size & Type: Medium Plant
Space/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 4, 9 (Large)
Speed: 10'
Ability Scores: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +4 - Net +22, no penalties
Natural Armor: 4
Natural Weapons: Four Primary Tentacles (1d4 plus poison)
Skill List: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Tentacled Mushroom
Speech (Languages): No (Understands Undercommon, has 30' Telepathy that bypasses languages)
CR: 5
WotC LA: -
Our LA: __

DR 3/-, 30' telepathy with any creature that has an intelligence score (that bypasses language barriers and explicitly allows two-way communication), and a CR that's actually higher than its RHD. It has an unfavorable body type, but color me pleasantly surprised by this thing's stats.

Three times per day, it can "cast" Control Plants as a Supernatural ability at CL 15. Its entire body excretes a contact/injury poison that deals 1d4 damage to both Str and Con for both initial and secondary damage, with a Con-based save to resits. This poison affects not only whatever it strikes with its four tentacles, but also any creature that strikes it with a natural weapon or unarmed strike. If the poison is scraped off of the Gray Fungus, it remains potent for 1d4 rounds.

Once every 1d4 rounds, the Gray Fungus can emit a Psychic Shriek into the minds of all creatures with an intelligence score within a 60' burst. Affected creatures must make a Charisma-based will save or be stunned for 1d2 rounds.

[loky1109]

Actually not bad. I give it +0 LA.

[danielxcutter]

Huh. Honestly I expected this to be a lot worse. Having Telepathy unlocks Mindsight, and being a Plant unlocks Rapidstrike. Not being able to speak does lock this thing out of most caster-based options and the body shape makes meldshaping hard too… but psionic or martial adept-based builds should work just fine. It’s definitely more than -0, I just don’t know whether +0 or +1 is more appropriate.

Also, how good are the innate abilities? They don’t seem to scale that well, but I think they actually might contribute in single-digit level parties?

[Prime32]

Some oddities in its control plants ability. Being able to control 30 HD of plant creatures is potent, if niche. It's a high-level spell but it doesn't have an inflated DC at early levels due to being (Su). Most significantly, by RAW the plants will not obey commands given by telepathy, only those spoken by their controller out loud, so it can't even order them to stop attacking its allies.

Its Plant HD have d8 hit points, average BAB, good Fort saves, and class skills of (2+Int) Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot. Is it worth taking 5 more levels in Plant to grow to Large size and get those juicy ability bonuses? Most of the time no, but it's an option and might allow it to fill a niche in specific builds (Symbiotic template anyone?).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oh my gods! Powercrept Shrieker!

This thing is surprisingly humanoid in shape, with a brain-like cap that might count as a head for meldshaping, feet-like tentacles to move around, and arm-like tentacles to hit people. No hand is a problem, but I don't think it lacks too many item slots. And the stats are really good for a 4 RHD creature, especially the DR 3/- which always helps a lot. I doubt it will be able to position himself to activate psychic shriek without hitting its allies, but the poison is nasty. Four poisoned attack with a Con-damaging poison and it also applies to people attacking it. Control Plants is occasionally useful, and the high CL allows for some shenaniganery (if only qualifying for item creation feats, Vatic Gaze and similar feats much earlier than intended). Assuming the Control Plants works (it would be pretty dumb if the gray fungus couldn't use its telepathy to relay commands), I'd say LA +1 is warranted.