The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Beni-Kujaku]

Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.

Yes‚ he is just arguing that if something is worse than the best LA+1‚ then it must not be LA+2. (Of course‚ that's assuming Half-Minotaur is balanced as a +1‚ which it is anything but)

In the end‚ it is much weaker than something that is much too strong for LA+1. Hence the debate between +1 and +2

[Troacctid]

If half-minotaur were +2 LA, it would still be one of the best +2 LAs in the game.

[Thurbane]

So, in people's opinions, what are the "best" LA +1 and LA +2 races with no RHD we've assigned in these threads so far, for comparison?

[liquidformat]

Just to be clear, half-minotaur is one of the top 3 LA +1 races in the entire game. If you had to be at least as good as half-minotaur to have +1 LA, nothing would be +1 LA.

Honestly I feel like you don't actually read other people's posts or just choose to ignore anything that contradicts your statement and this isn't the first time by far.

Anyways as I said already, the snake has great ability scores but it has a number of glaring issues that will need to be dealt with. One of the biggest being doing anything that requires hands and to go along with that carrying things, you can't deal with that at least until level 5 but more likely 8 to 10. This doesn't strike me as being one of the best choices at LA +1, any path you choose to go with this snake is going to require some investment to overcome its handicaps.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, in people's opinions, what are the "best" LA +1 and LA +2 races with no RHD we've assigned in these threads so far, for comparison?

Well‚ we really haven't assigned a lot of +1s and +2s to creatures without HD‚ but if I had to choose‚ I'd say the duergar for its high caster level and the nixie or the varoot for their SLA (3/day Alter Self for the varoot is really strong)

[Thurbane]

Well‚ we really haven't assigned a lot of +1s and +2s to creatures without HD‚ but if I had to choose‚ I'd say the duergar for its high caster level and the nixie or the varoot for their SLA (3/day Alter Self for the varoot is really strong)

Interesting: I'd definitely say this critter is better than Duergar, but not as good as a Varoot.

I'm sticking with +2 as per my original post, FWIW.

[Troacctid]

Races that have gotten +1 with no HD (not including templates):
Animated Object (Small Wagon)
Darkmantle
Drow
Duergar
Formian Worker
Githyanki
Githzerai
Svirfneblin
Badger
Astral Construct, 1st-level
Half-Giant
Feytouched
Carcass Eater
Argent Spider, Tiny

Races that have gotten +2 with no HD (not including templates):
Grig
Nixie
Petal
Puppeteer
Dark Creeper
Nerra, Varoot
Shadow Asp

I'd personally say the best +2 is either the grig or the nixie, and the best +1 is the astral construct, or possibly the badger?

The most obvious comparison, though, is the shadow asp, as it has very similar base stats (with the shadow asp having higher Str, Con, and Wis while the diamondback has higher Int, Cha, and natural armor) and shares the snake body type. In comparison, the diamondback viper loses the shadow asp's ability to turn incorporeal for a limited time each day, but gains the ability to fly/jet, as well as the extra heads (and extra bites) and scent. IMO they're very close.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The most obvious comparison, though, is the shadow asp, as it has very similar base stats (with the shadow asp having higher Str, Con, and Wis while the diamondback has higher Int, Cha, and natural armor) and shares the snake body type. In comparison, the diamondback viper loses the shadow asp's ability to turn incorporeal for a limited time each day, but gains the ability to fly/jet, as well as the extra heads (and extra bites) and scent. IMO they're very close.

I mean, the shadow asp was one vote away from being voted LA +1, so that's pretty close to our current situation. I don't feel like the ability to defeat some foes in a round (3 Cha-dealing bites is harsh, 4 with Rapidstrike) measures to the sheer versatility and utility of incorporealness. But yeah, with flight and higher intelligence, it may be slightly better. I'll change my vote to LA+2.

[H_H_F_F]

One of us, one of us!

[Debatra]

+2 - Thurbane, H_H_F_F, Caelestion, Troacctid, remetagross, AsuraKyoko, Beni-Kujaku
+1 - loky1109, liquidformat, Remuko, Dimers

Could have seen this going either way, but we ended up at +2. Next up is the Disembodied Spirit template.

[Debatra]

Disembodied Spirit

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Plant with at least 6 Charisma.
Size & Type: Gains Incorporeal subtype. Note that despite losing their Constitution score, the Type is unchanged. (Even the flavor text makes it clear these aren't "true undead".)
Space/Reach: Unchanged
Hit Dice: Max HP appears to be equal to base creature's current HP at time of acquisition. This is probably abusable.
Speed: Fly speed equal to base creature's land speed, or its Fly speed if higher. Perfect Maneuverability. Existing movement modes are not explicitly lost, though being incorporeal may make walking on land difficult.
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +0, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +0, no "penalties"
Armor Class: Lose natural armor, gain ChaMod to deflection, minimum 1.
Skills: Unchanged
CR: 0. Not "+0", but 0.
WotC LA: +0
Our LA: -0

So you gain this template by going through a special portal that sends your body and soul to different destinations. Needless to say, your equipment goes with your body.

Most notably, this template will cost you the ability to attack, and limit you to a single move action each round. You also can't speak.

In exchange, you get incorporeality (with all the usual benefits and drawbacks) and one special ability: Rejuvenation. Whenever you would be "destroyed", you get to make a level check against a flat DC of 16. Success allows the Disembodied Spirit to restore itself in 2d4 days. Though there is also a Ghost-esque "set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace" clause.

And hey, if you decide you don't like being a Disembodied Spirit, you can be restored with Resurrection or True Res. Though you still need your old body (or a piece of it) for regular Resurrection.

[InvisibleBison]

Most notably, this template will cost you the ability to speak.

I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Sooooo. You become incorporeal. That's all, but that's much. You don't even change type? Really? The fact that you lose your Con and that you're considered to be destroyed instead of killed makes me think you should have. And the fact that it's CR 0 makes me think you should not have kept the base creature's special attacks and qualities. But hey, here we are.

The fact that you can't affect corporeal items without something like a ghost touch gauntlet is a problem, but the simple fact that you're fully incorporeal without losing any important stats (you don't care about Constitution, you keep your max HP) or any spellcasting, without Undead weaknesses (also without undead immunities) is such a boon that I don't see it being worth less than LA+2. Oh, yeah, also you're immortal. Not the biggest deal, since your party loses anyway, but it may become very interesting if the mentioned check can be made by a standard action and not every 2d4 days (the wording is confusing).

Also the whole "the only way to destroy a disembodied spirit is to set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace" seems akwardly copied from Ghost. And doesn't apply here. We know exactly what prevents them from resting, it's that they are stuck behind bars of force after a wizard created an evil portal to separate their spirit from their body!


EDIT: Oh, didn't see the fact that you can only make a move action per turn. Yeah, that's a problem. This list may be useful.

[Tzardok]

You've forgot one trait:

Attack: A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn.

I'm not sure, but I don't think this template is worth anything.

[loky1109]

I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.

Beholder + Master of the Unseen Hand.
I vote for +1. Maybe with asterisk.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You've forgot one trait:

I'm not sure, but I don't think this template is worth anything.

Counterpoint: Dragonborn of Bahamut.

You are still a humanoid, and DoB doesn't require much beyond being non-evil. You lose all your traits (including "can't attack"), and you keep your subtype.
What? We have an officially published asterisk-on-a-stick, why not use it?

Also going through the Rite of Rebirth when you're basically a ghost is delightfully ironic.

Beholder + Master of the Unseen Hand.
I vote for +1. Maybe with asterisk.

Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

[Debatra]

I would think the most notable aspect of a disembodied spirit is its inability to attack or take standard actions. Or are we just asterisking that away? It does make the template completely unplayable in anything even remotely resembling a normal game.

I... somehow managed to miss that giant red flag waving around.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

I'd read that as "can't take 2 move actions in a turn", not "is unable to take non-move actions". Could technically be read either way, but the first one makes more sense since they specified that it can't take standard actions separately. Changed my mind after looking at the text more closely. I think this can't take actions other than a single move action per turn.

If we don't asterisk that (or take into account fixes like Dragonborn), this is -0. You could go all in on Swarm damage or something else that doesn't require actions, but outside of that, incorporeality is never going to be worth most of your actions.

If we do asterisk it, well, it's worse than Ghost, but is it worse enough to be a +1*? Probably, but maybe not. I'm very open to having my mind changed on that.

[loky1109]

Are we considering a disembodied spirit can make free actions? What about swift actions? I mean, "only a single move action each turn" is pretty exclusive.

I had debating about it with matty_p. )))
Swift is out scope, because it's 3.0, so let's talk about free. One of free action is talk, but DS had specific clarification about talking. It doesn't need if DS can't do free actions.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'd read that as "can't take 2 move actions in a turn", not "is unable to take non-move actions". Could technically be read either way, but the first one makes more sense since they specified that it can't take standard actions separately.

If we don't asterisk that (or take into account fixes like Dragonborn), this is -0. You could go all in on Swarm damage or something else that doesn't require actions, but outside of that, incorporeality is never going to be worth most of your actions.

If we do asterisk it, well, it's worse than Ghost, but is it worse enough to be a +1*? Probably, but maybe not. I'm very open to having my mind changed on that.

The fact that it is CR 0 pretty clearly points in the direction that they are not supposed to contribute in any way in a fight, so "unable to take non-move actions" seems the most reasonable interpretation of RAI.

I had debating about it with matty_p. )))
Swift is out scope, because it's 3.0, so let's talk about free. One of free action is talk, but DS had specific clarification about talking. It doesn't need if DS can't do free actions.

Aaaaah! I was wondering why a way to immediately reset a CR back to 0 was not abused in every iteration of VC! Yeah, Free actions seem to be fair game, but most probably not swift ones.

Besides a beholder, a swarm may be interesting (an incorporeal swarm would be such a pain to kill, or to reduce to 0 HP), or a creature with some interesting aura. Of course, something with a gaze attack would be perfect. How do you feel about fighting an incorporeal medusa?

[liquidformat]

So to start off this thing needs an asterisk for only being able to take single move actions; if that is left on then this is an easy -0 LA template.

Moving on, so you get the incorporeal subtype and nothing else, not even the ability to manifest or possession or any of those fun bells and whistles the ghost template gives you so you are left up to what feats to take from Ghost walk. Unless you are in an extremely niche game that means this template is a straight up -0 on anything that isn't a caster. If I am understanding incorporeal correctly even as a caster, besides positive energy, negative energy, force effects (and ghost touched weapons) any damaging spell you use has a 50% chance to be ignored. Also since you are incapable of speech that means all spells with Verbal components are out? So you have to cherry pick spells with no verbal components, and no material components, or use silent spell and Eschew Materials. This seems like enough negatives that +1* LA seems about right, I would be open to increasing that but I haven't seen any arguments as to why it should be higher yet.

[loky1109]

I think DS actually should not lose its Con, it looks like lazy copy-paste from Ghost.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Moving on, so you get the incorporeal subtype and nothing else, not even the ability to manifest or possession or any of those fun bells and whistles the ghost template gives you so you are left up to what feats to take from Ghost walk. Unless you are in an extremely niche game that means this template is a straight up -0 on anything that isn't a caster. If I am understanding incorporeal correctly even as a caster, besides positive energy, negative energy, force effects (and ghost touched weapons) any damaging spell you use has a 50% chance to be ignored. Also since you are incapable of speech that means all spells with Verbal components are out? So you have to cherry pick spells with no verbal components, and no material components, or use silent spell and Eschew Materials. This seems like enough negatives that +0* LA seems about right, I would be open to increasing that but I haven't seen any arguments as to why it should be higher yet.

Well, no. Incorporeal can't be affected by lots of things, but an incorporeal creature is on the material plane, its spells (or whatever other effects it creates) are fully felt by its opponents. And the Verbal components are only a problem if you go spellcaster. Warlocks exist, psionic classes too, dragonfire adepts, and even bards who can fulfill verbal components with music, all will enjoy the full versatility, utility and defensive benefits of being incorporeal and unaffected by everything anything below ECL 7 throws at them, while losing none of their important abilities. As I said higher, this is worse than a ghost, but being incorporeal is still extremely good, and should warrant LA +2* in my opinion. Incorporeal creatures can basically always have concealment, infiltrate any castle or camp, stave off any restraints or entanglements, and beat any number of mooks. A ghost touch gauntlet will allow the spirit to manipulate items for 4k gp. That's a problem, but really not that much of one, especially if you compensate with spells.

That said, I agree that except for a specific challenge, I don't see any creature who would really benefit from losing its standard, even if it becomes incorporeal afterwards. LA-0

[ciopo]

"A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn."

What happens out of initiative? can it do (whatever he's otherwise allowed) if it's not taking a turn? if we take feats to allow spellcasting, can it , for example, summon monsters while out of initiative?

it is not an attack after all, and we aren't acting in the abstraction of "turn"

let's say a disembodied spirit has the ghostly grasp feat, the craft wondrous items feat and the relevant prerequisites, could it craft items? that isn't "an action"


It all boils down to how descriptive of the overall creature we take that paragraph present in the attacks section

[liquidformat]

Well, no. Incorporeal can't be affected by lots of things, but an incorporeal creature is on the material planeLA-0

I thought default for ghosts and Incorporeal creatures is the ethereal plane, no? I don't see anything inside the article that specifically says it is on either the material or ethereal plane and it has no ability to manifest.

[Tzardok]

I thought default for ghosts and Incorporeal creatures is the ethereal plane, no? I don't see anything inside the article that specifically says it is on either the material or ethereal plane and it has no ability to manifest.

No. Incorporeal creatures are by default on the Material. Ghosts are on the Ethereal, but they are corporeal there. When a ghost manifests, it appears as an incorporeal creature on the Material, but at the same time stays corporeal on the Ethereal.

Edit: Libris Mortis spends half a chapter talking about the differences between being incorporeal and being on the Ethereal.

[liquidformat]

No. Incorporeal creatures are by default on the Material. Ghosts are on the Ethereal, but they are corporeal there. When a ghost manifests, it appears as an incorporeal creature on the Material, but at the same time stays corporeal on the Ethereal.

Edit: Libris Mortis spends half a chapter talking about the differences between being incorporeal and being on the Ethereal.

Ok that is much better than I initially thought, I think this is a +1* LA then.

[ciopo]

have there been other istances where the LA assignment thread increased the LA compared to the WOTC one? I know some tmeplates I woulnd't mind not being +0 *cough unseelie fey cough*

Anyway, incorporeality, flight, CHA to AC, immunity to STR and CON damage in exchange of a very significant limitation, I'm going for -0

[Troacctid]

+0 is my vote, but I think -0 is not unreasonable given that it exists already at +0 and has no relevant char-op applications that I know of. Maybe on a marshal cohort so that they can do their auras without having to worry about getting attacked?

I prefer +0 to be safe. There are a lot of monsters that this thread is adding to the pool of playable races, and only a few of them need to have a critical mass of actionless powers in order to be viable as disembodied spirits. I'm not sure which monsters, but I can easily conceive of their existence, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Remuko]

feels easy -0 to me. I'm not sure if it would even be +0 if we removed the "cant do anything but move" restriction tbh