The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[PoeticallyPsyco]

have there been other istances where the LA assignment thread increased the LA compared to the WOTC one? I know some tmeplates I woulnd't mind not being +0 *cough unseelie fey cough*

Early on in the Fiend Folio, there was a lizard-man type monster with 3RHD. We gave it +1 LA, but Wizards had originally given it ECL 3. Can't remember its name, though.

[H_H_F_F]

I'm voting -0. The restriction is beyond terrible.

[Thurbane]

ShurikVch made a thread exploring possibilities of this template: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rit&p=25188031

It was concluded you really need to jump through hoops to make it remotely effective at doing much of anything, and even then, there are a few ways the RAW can be read on it's action and attack limitations.

All in all, I'm inclined to rate this LA -0. Being incorporeal is nice, as is a chance to auto return after being destroyed, but there are better and far more effective ways of getting both. This template just has too many inbuilt drawbacks...

[Tzardok]

Yeah. This is the kind of template that you give a character for a single session until the party manages to recover the body. -0 from me.

[remetagross]

It's completely useless, except maybe on your Familiar to whom you're linked by Telepathy so that you don't risk losing a bunch of XP that often since it's more difficult to kill, and you get a perfect scout. But still, meh. LA-0 for a PC.

[Beni-Kujaku]

ShurikVch made a thread exploring possibilities of this template: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rit&p=25188031

It was concluded you really need to jump through hoops to make it remotely effective at doing much of anything, and even then, there are a few ways the RAW can be read on it's action and attack limitations.

All in all, I'm inclined to rate this LA -0. Being incorporeal is nice, as is a chance to auto return after being destroyed, but there are better and far more effective ways of getting both. This template just has too many inbuilt drawbacks...

This thread made a lot more creatures available. For example, take the disembodied spirit of a Dread Blossom Swarm. You force distraction with your swarm attack, and you have an inhaled poison around you for paralysis. You don't need standard actions, what you need is to not be killed by fire or cold, and Disembodied Spirit does just that. Then you take one level of dragon shaman (the particular swarm anatomy of being able to take up any 4 adjacent squares makes the auras especially potent, and they are large enough that you can position yourself to help allies and poison enemies), one of swordsage and/or two of ardent to move around more easily and to get White Raven Tactics, one or two of incarnate for soulspark familiar, lucky dice and spellward shirt, then you go warchief and increase all your friends strength in combat. Or forsaker to really be invincible. Or Beastmaster with Share Soulmeld to give them all mage's spectacles. Or Artificer (crafting isn't an action per se). There are things to do, and being incorporeal is really good all by itself.

[Caelestion]

Being incorporeal is a big bonus, and obviously we have to asterisk the "can only take move actions" bit if we want it to actually be played, which is after all the point of this thread. LA +1*.

[Debatra]

I'm not sure this thing needs an asterisk for its limited actions. I particularly disagree that the point of these threads is that we want these monsters to be played. We're rating their playability, not making them playable. If the goal were to make them playable, then most -0 monsters would then end up getting a discussion on what sorts of buffs or reduced RHD would bring them up to a half-decent +0 or +0*. (For those curious about my sig, it's just because I feel like that phrase rolls off the tongue better than "Rating the Playability of Monsters Since 2016".)

The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove

Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

But if you guys feel as though its warranted here, we'll let the votes decide. But I'm also throwing in my own vote for -0, no asterisk.

[liquidformat]

I am fine with it either way, I just wanted to comment on the differences between the two options. I think in this case we can probably leave on the crippling action economy since it is still playable and there are work arounds. As pointed out I don't think this is a case where an asterisk is needed, so -0 LA it is.

[danielxcutter]

This is one of the rare cases where I feel confident to vote instead of just lurking and making the occasional comment.

LA -0, no asterisk; this is not the kind of case where we want to arbitrarily change things about it in order to make playable.

[Dimers]

The template itself is unadulterated junk. The fact that there are specific ways to make it less junky doesn't really signify. LA -0.

[TiaC]

Unmodified, it's a clear -0. If you don't specifically build around it, your character is useless, and even if you do, you could have made something better with less effort without it.

However, it is such a "You don't get to interact with the campaign" ability that I think it should be asterisked and given a +1*. You can't speak, can't use most skills, can't attack, can't use most class abilities, and the most basic reading of the ability disallows swift and free actions as well. It's a simple deletion that's not comparable to the amount of work needed to bring most -0 monsters up to +0.

[Debatra]

Life springs things on you sometimes.

+1 - loky1109
+0 - Troacctid
-0 - PoeticallyPsyco, Beni-Kujaku, ciopo, Remuko, H_H_F_F, Thurbane, Tzardok, remetagross, Debatra, liquidformat, danielxcutter, Dimers

Potential Asterisk Votes
+1* - PoeticallyPsyco, liquidformat (but prefers -0 no asterisk), Caelestion, TiaC
+2* - Beni-Kujaku

Next up is the Dracolisk. No, that's Dracolisk.

[Debatra]

Dracolisk
(Download Link)

Size & Type: Large Outsider (Extraplanar)
Space/Reach: 10'/10'
HD: 18
Speed: 20', Fly 40' (Average)
Ability Scores: Str +22, Dex -2, Con +12, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha +6 - Net +32, two penalties
Natural Armor: Presumably 13.
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d10 - the listed one has Improved Natural Attack as a non-bonus feat for 2d8), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
Skill List: Hide (+20 in "the cavern", which I will be generous and expand to caves in general because I can't find anything special about "the cavern" in question.), Listen, Spot
Body Shape: Eight-legged dragon.
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic)
CR: 14
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

From the same module as the Cauchimera, and having an uneasy alliance with them in the book as well, this creature is the offspring of a Black Dragon (which we gave -0 across the board of age categories) and a Greater Abyssal Basilisk (also -0, though the regular Basilisk got +1). Let's see if it's any better than the sum of its ancestry.

DR 10/magic may as well not even be there at this level. SR 23 is bad, but not completely useless. It's immune to acid, and resists both fire and cold by ten. In addition to the 60' Darkvision all Outsiders have, the Dracolisk also has Low-Light Vision.

Once per day, they can Smite a good creature for an extra handful of damage. Not really impressive at this level, but it's a smite attack. Also once per day they can use a 60' line of acid breath, dealing 6d8 damage, with a Constitution-based reflex save for half.

And of course, there's the petrifying gaze attack. Anything within 30' that looks at this thing makes a Charisma-based fortitude save to avoid being permanently turned to stone.

Wait a minute... This thing is literally just an Abyssal Greater Basilisk with a slightly worse version of the Half-Dragon template. No listed immunity to sleep or paralysis, but it appears to have enough HP to require D12s for an average roll (Outsiders normally have D8s, but the AGB already had D10s.) And the fact that its type isn't changed to Dragon leaves it without a lot of support that the template would normally give it access to. ...And it also lets it take the template "for real" in order to double-up on the benefits if you really want to do that. (Actually, come to think of it, there isn't explicitly a restriction against Dragons taking the Half-Dragon template anyway. Weird.) We gave the Half-Dragon template +2, but what happens when you add that to a -0 creature?

[danielxcutter]

This thing would be a lot better if it didn’t have 18 bloody RHD.

[Dimers]

"Atk options" lists Blind-Fight, so maybe you get that as a bonus feat?

Will save seems to be miscalculated; outsiders (and also dragons) have all good saves and the example creature has Iron Will, so the listed +9 is four points short of the +13 that it should be for Wisdom 10.

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

You've got a gaze attack with short range and no particular way to get into range quickly. It's party-unfriendly and it's the only reason you have to raise your Charisma. Your one-per-day breath weapon is meaningless at this level. You've got good hit points and Fortitude from Constitution. Strength is helpful for a beatstick but not really comparable to the DPR value of, say, warblade maneuvers or totemist melds at this level. You're vulnerable to dismissal and the like. Outsider skill points, but with a serious Int penalty and few class skills to spend them on. Your ability to manipulate objects is questionable, and having no innate way to change from Large size will occasionally be a problem.

This is a pretty plain LA -0. It doesn't belong in a level 18 party; it really has no way to face near-epic challenges. All it has going for it is good Constitution and acid immunity.

[H_H_F_F]

Outsider HD are good. That being said, 18 of them for this is still too much, I think. Obvious continuation... Crusader, probably? Two more levels of that would give it 6th level maneuvers at 20.

I'm thinking this is probably a -0, but I'll wait for Thurbane's dissection to see if I missed anything.

[loky1109]

This is -0, but one of strong -0.

[remetagross]

Definitely a -0 for me. The petrification trick is cute, but a lot of foes at CR 18 don't care for that, either because they're celestials, or incorporeal, or are beatsticks with a million HDs and 80 Con, and as such a sky-high Fort save. Nice catch for having noticed this dude just got the Half-dragon template put on!

[Chaos Jackal]

Would be decent... with maybe a third less HD.

As it stands, 18 is a whole lot to pay for so few perks, even if they're outsider RHD. You don't have enough levels to progress anything or promote any serious synergies, you're not actually a dragon so that's a bunch of tricks out the window and being a half decent beatstick means little at a level where you'll already have 9th-level maneuvers or will be oneshotting stuff left and right with charges or whatever. The petrification seems to be the only other big point outside of the mountain of Str, but it's not a particularly reliable point. This is -0.

[Remuko]

easy -0. how sad.

[StevenC21]

-0, definitely.

Cool picture though.

[liquidformat]

This is -0, but one of strong -0.

How is this in anyway a strong -0? If we cut its HD in half I am still thinking it would be -0 or maybe just barely +0 at that point. In no way is this what I expect of a monster that takes up 18 levels. This is an easy -0 LA As Debatra pointed out it is strictly worse than a Greater Abyssal Basilisk half dragon which still is an easy -0 LA.

[loky1109]

How is this in anyway a strong -0? If we cut its HD in half I am still thinking it would be -0 or maybe just barely +0 at that point. In no way is this what I expect of a monster that takes up 18 levels. This is an easy -0 LA As Debatra pointed out it is strictly worse than a Greater Abyssal Basilisk half dragon which still is an easy -0 LA.

It's definitely isn't weak -0. )))
Not, for example, 30HD mindless undead.

[Morphic tide]

Comparing against "Big Dumb Fighters" it has enough +numbers to function, since +11 Strength modifier and AC does silly things to the combat math, but there's no room for utilities save maybe some incredibly ridiculous cheese with Ardent. So LA -0 because you're stuck to the one note the monster has, for all I'm confident that it can get combat math working just fine.

The save-or-lose is not irrelevant, but does need serious investment to have a good chance of working against any "big beater" with a strong Fort save, which is for whatever reason the very obvious majority at this point. 16 Charisma, Ability Focus, +6 Charisma enhancer, and Irresistable Gaze brings the DC to 32, turning it into a coin-flip to end a Balor before it even takes an action. And that's investment not being put into leveraging those numbers to kill whatever doesn't get Petrified or desperately rummaging for ways to do literally anything but trivialize combat.

[Thurbane]

Without going into a detailed analysis, this has too many RHD for what it gets. I'm also voting LA -0.

Sidenote: interesting how this compares to the "official" 3.5 Dracolisk that appears in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which is literally a half-black dragon/half advanced basilisk. CR 12, 18 HD, Large Dragon, Str 31, Dex 8, Con 22, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13. When we played that module, it petrified the Druid's dog animal companion, which was under the effects of an Enlarge Animal at the time. None of us had the means to un-petrify it, so we were left with the logistics of getting a large stone dog statue out of a dungeon and back to town.

[Debatra]

Another clear -0. Next up is the Ectoplasmic Dragon.

[Tzardok]

Ugh. 3.0 psionics. Again!

[Debatra]

Ectoplasmic Dragon

Size & Type: Medium-Colossal Dragon (Fire)
Space/Reach: Presumably normal for its size.
HD: 8 (Medium, Wyrmling), 11 (Medium, Very Young), 14 (Large, Young), 17 (Large, Juvenile), 20 (Huge, Young Adult), 23 (Huge, Adult), 26 (Huge, Mature Adult), 29 (Huge, Old), 32 (Gargantuan, Very Old), 35 (Gargantuan, Ancient), 38 (Gargantuan, Wyrm), 41 (Colossal, Great Wyrm)
Speed: 40', Swim 80', Fly 150' (Poor) (Wyrmling - Juvenile), Fly 200' (Clumsy) (Young Adult - Old), Fly 250' (Clumsy) (Very Old - Great Wyrm)

Ability Scores (Wyrmling): Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +0 - Net +22, no penalties
Ability Scores (Very Young): Str +8, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +2 - Net +28, no penalties
Ability Scores (Young): Str +12, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +2 - Net +36, no penalties
Ability Scores (Juvenile): Str +14, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +4 - Net +42, no penalties
Ability Scores (Young Adult): Str +18, Dex +4, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +6, Cha +4 - Net +50, no penalties
Ability Scores (Adult): Str +20, Dex +4, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +56, no penalties
Ability Scores (Mature Adult): Str +22, Dex +4, Con +12, Int +10, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +62, no penalties
Ability Scores (Old): Str +24, Dex +4, Con +12, Int +14, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +76, no penalties
Ability Scores (Very Old): Str +28, Dex +4, Con +14, Int +16, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +84, no penalties
Ability Scores (Ancient): Str +30, Dex +4, Con +16, Int +18, Wis +14, Cha +12 - Net +94, no penalties
Ability Scores (Wyrm): Str +32, Dex +4, Con +18, Int +20, Wis +14, Cha +12 - Net +100, no penalties
Ability Scores (Great Wyrm): Str +36, Dex +4, Con +20, Int +22, Wis +16, Cha +14 - Net +112, no penalties

Natural Armor: Age Category RHD-1. I'm not listing them all after that monster of an ability score chart.
Natural Weapons: Standard True Dragon lineup.
Skill List: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device (Standard True Dragon list, no noted extras.)
Body Shape: Dragon
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic) (Not noted, but is true for all True Dragons.)
CR: 5-27
WotC LA: +4 (Wyrmling), +5 (Very Young), +6 (Young) - (Juvenile+)
Our LA: +1 (Wyrmling), +0 (Very Young and Young), -0 (Juvenile+)

A Dragon without scales, but instead a smooth, highly reflective hide. We of course have the standard True Dragon packages. Frightful Presence, a bunch of natural weapons, immunity to sleep and paralysis, etc.

Instead of immunity to an energy type (though they do have the Fire Subtype and all that entails), they are immune to the Dismiss Ectoplasm power. While very specific, this is one less save-or-die the Ectoplasmic Dragon needs to worry about. Though you could also not worry about it by not being ectoplasmic. They can also travel instantly between the Material and Astral planes as a standard action, with no listed limit on how often they may do so.

It has psi resistance 21 starting at 20-RHD Young Adulthood, which of course scales poorly and further into irrelevance as it ages. It gains damage reduction at the same age, but it never requires anything other than magic to overcome it. Instead of spellcasting as a sorcerer, it manifests as a Psion who chose Metacreativity as its discipline. Its ML starts at 1 when the Dragon becomes Young, then increases by two for each age category.

It also has a few Psi-Likes aside from the ever-inconvertible Attack/Defense modes: Very Young - Ectoplasmic Cocoon 3/day, Young - Chameleon 3/day, Juvenile - Negate Psionics 3/day, Adult - Dismiss Ectoplasm 3/day, Old - Energy Barrier 2/day, Ancient - Catapsi 1/day, Great Wyrm - Mass Cocoon 1/day. Saves are Int-based.

Their breath weapon is actually quite unusual, being more akin to a fireball than the normal cone or line. While not explicitly stated, their Fire subtype and the fact that the substance is called Whitefire leaves us with the obvious assumption. It deals 2d8 damage per age category, with the standard Con-based reflex save for half. Its maximum range and blast radius are both dependent on the Ectoplasmic Dragon's size, starting at a 40' range and 10' radius when the Dragon is a Medium-sized Wyrmling, and increasing by 20' and 5' per size category respectively.

Finally, a Young Adult Ectoplasmic Dragon can coat itself in a Whitefire Aura once per day as a standard action. It lasts one round per age category, and causes any creature that strikes it with a natural or handheld weapon to take damage in return, with a reflex save for half whose DC is noted to be equal to the Dragon's Frightful Presence. (Not based on the same formula, just "DC same as frightful presence". So I guess technically you could take Ability Focus (Frightful Presence) and double-up on the benefit?) The aura's damage starts at 5d4, and increases by another 5d4 every two age categories.

It's a True Dragon. Only three times have we ever not given one -0, and all three were Wyrmlings. (For the curious: White, Brass, and Silver each got +1.) Will the Ectoplasmic Dragon join that exclusive club?

[remetagross]

It will not. Starting at 8 RHDs is too high a price to pay: going into any form of casting class is doomed to failure, and the rest of the package is nice and all but less interesting than actual class features. The swim speed is nice. Maybe I'd give LA+0 to the wyrmling.