The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Beni-Kujaku]

Sorry about the delay, folks. Calling it as +1 W, +0 VY and Y, -0 all others. This also marks our first non-Wyrmling dragon to avoid a -0.

Next on the docket is... ****, another Dragon. Typing up that last one was painful.

Cheer up! At least it's the last one! I mean, except the revised Mist, Mercury and Steel dragons.

[Debatra]

Obsidian Dragon

Size & Type: Small-Gargantuan Dragon (Fire)
Space/Reach: Presumably normal for its size.
HD: 7 (Small, Wyrmling), 10 (Medium, Very Young), 13 (Medium, Young), 16 (Large, Juvenile), 19 (Large, Young Adult), 22 (Huge, Adult), 25 (Huge, Mature Adult), 28 (Huge, Old), 31 (Huge, Very Old), 34 (Gargantuan, Ancient), 37 (Gargantuan, Wyrm), 40 (Gargantuan, Great Wyrm)
Speed: 40', Burrow 20', Swim 20', Fly 100' (Average) (Wyrmling), Fly 150' (Poor) (Very Young - Very Old), Fly 200' (Clumsy) (Ancient - Great Wyrm)

Ability Scores (Wyrmling): Str +2, Dex +0, Con +2, Int +4, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +4, two penalties
Ability Scores (Very Young): Str +4, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +6, Wis -2, Cha -2 - Net +10, two penalties
Ability Scores (Young): Str +6, Dex +0, Con +4, Int +8, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +18, no penalties
Ability Scores (Juvenile): Str +8, Dex +0, Con +6, Int +10, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +28, no penalties
Ability Scores (Young Adult): Str +12, Dex +0, Con +8, Int +12, Wis +2, Cha +2 - Net +36, no penalties
Ability Scores (Adult): Str +16, Dex +0, Con +10, Int +14, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +48, no penalties
Ability Scores (Mature Adult): Str +18, Dex +0, Con +10, Int +16, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +52, no penalties
Ability Scores (Old): Str +20, Dex +0, Con +12, Int +18, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +62, no penalties
Ability Scores (Very Old): Str +22, Dex +0, Con +12, Int +20, Wis +6, Cha +6 - Net +66, no penalties
Ability Scores (Ancient): Str +24, Dex +0, Con +14, Int +22, Wis +8, Cha +8 - Net +76, no penalties
Ability Scores (Wyrm): Str +26, Dex +0, Con +16, Int +24, Wis +8, Cha +8 - Net +82, no penalties
Ability Scores (Great Wyrm): Str +28, Dex +0, Con +16, Int +26, Wis +10, Cha +10 - Net +90, no penalties

Natural Armor: Age Category RHD-1. I'm not listing them all after that monster of an ability score chart.
Natural Weapons: Standard True Dragon lineup.
Skill List: Appraise (one free rank/HD... but is not actually noted as a class skill), Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (All), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device
Body Shape: Dragon
Speech (Languages): Yes (Draconic) (Not noted, but is true for all True Dragons.)
CR: 3-25
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0 (Wyrmling), -0 (Very Young+)

There are a few similarities to the Ectoplasmic Dragon; such as psionics instead of magic, and the ability to travel across planes. This one can pass between the Material and the Inner Planes.

Also like the Ectoplasmic, the Obsidian has basically-irrelevant Psi Resistance and manifests as a Psion who chose Metacreativity as its discipline. Its ML starts at 1 when the Dragon becomes Young, then increases by two for each age category. It has DR/magic, but it actually goes up to /+2 starting at Very Old. I'm not really sure about DR conversions off the top of my head, but I seriously doubt it can save an 18 RHD Dragon from the -0 pile. Its Breath Weapon is a standard cone of fire, dealing 2d10 per age category.

It gets a few PLAs as it ages. Young: Firefall, Juvenile: Biofeedback, Young Adult: Burning Ray, Adult: Whitefire, Mature Adult: Wall of Ectoplasm, Old: Ectoplasmic Armor, Very Old: Flaming Shroud, Ancient: Plane Shift, Wyrm: Mind Store, Great Wyrm: Genesis. Each are 3/day, except for the last two which are 1/day. Saves are... "appropriate ability modifier"-based, so unfortunately default to Char-... Actually, I can't find any rule that gives a default ability for Psi-Likes to be based on.

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

[Thurbane]

Imma sit this one out - I struggle with dragons and their age categories in terms of playability at the best of times; throw psionics into the mix, and I don't feel informed enough to vote.

^^ Rinse and repeat.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Compared to a Bronze dragon, this has one more RHD, -6 in both Wis and Cha, and a worse breath weapon, but the ability to freely travel the planes (or, at least, freely travel to the Inner Planes and then back again, because no one in the party nor most equipments can withstand the inner planes if they are brought out of the Bag of Holding). That's basically an ectoplasmic dragon with worse stats and a worse choice of planar travel. Still, that's a demon-like Greater Teleport, and I think the Wyrmling should get LA+0 for that. -0 for the rest.

The fact that it has Planeshift as an SLA explicitates at least that its innate ability to travel planes is not the same one, and its tactics imply that it definitely can't bring other people with it, since it states Plane Shift as the most interesting option to transport enemies to the Plane of Fire.


Edit: Also, Thurbane, there is a typo in the second page of your MM6. Dragon of the Great Game appears in MM5, not MM4.

[liquidformat]

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

3.0 Psions had different primary ability score depending on which discipline they used. Given that all psions now use intelligence there might be an argument that they should use intelligence for their PLAs...

Honestly this doesn't seem much different than any of the wyrmling to very young chromatic dragons and is worse than white wyrming so I am comfortable with -0 for all.

[danielxcutter]

These would honestly be interesting enemies due to psion powers, especially since it'd be a Shaper... though I'm not sure it'd be worth it, due to the lack of Scintillating Scales.

[Tzardok]

Also, I'm not sure if that's just how it worked in 3.0; but its Fire Subtype is noted to double the cold damage it takes instead of 3.5e's normal vulnerability of +50%.

Yep, vulnerability to an energy worked differently. It was double damage on a failed save, normal damage on a successful save, instead of +50% in both cases.

[remetagross]

This dragon looks really nice! But its stat modifiers are a little disappointing. Yeah, I think I'm going to go with Beni-Kujaku assessment on this one: put me down for LA+0 for the wyrmling and LA-0 for all the other age categories.

[Debatra]

Two votes for +0 W and -0 for the rest, one vote for -0 to all.

...Anything else to talk about here, or shall we move on?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I'd like to talk about Monster Mash (in my sig) having the builds revealed. If any of you wants to come and judge them‚ it would be greatly appreciated! :)


Oh you meant about the Obsidian dragon? Then no‚ nothing more. Except you forgot to put the link to the article in your presentation

[remetagross]

Let's move on. These two dragons are cute but ultimately not that different from regular dragons as far as being a PC is concerned.

[Debatra]

Yeah, sorry about that. No real excuse, I've just really been letting things go more than I should have lately.

+0 W and -0 for the rest, next up is the Dragon Newt.

[Debatra]

Dragon Newt

Size & Type: Small Animal (Aquatic)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 1, 2 (Medium)
Speed: 20', Swim 30'
Ability Scores: Str -4, Dex +6, Con +0, Int -8, Wis +2, Cha -2 - Net -6, three penalties
Natural Armor: 1
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (1d4)
Skill List: Hide (+3 racial), Move Silently (+3 racial), Spot (+3 racial), Swim
Body Shape: Lizard
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

So these are heavily implied to be amphibious ("just as comfortable out of the water as in it"), but are not explicitly so. They have Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat, which helps with their acidic spit.

Said spit has a range increment of 10', dealing 1d4 acid damage on a successful ranged touch attack. Their saliva is also venomous, forcing a Con-based fortitude save vs 1d4 Str damage for both primary and secondary damage. Why this doesn't also work with their bite is beyond me. Their skin secretes this venom as well, exposing anything that hits it with an unarmed strike or natural weapon.

There is also a psionic version, identical to the above except for being a Magical Beast instead of an Animal. And yes, identical here also means Animal Intelligence. In addition to Attack/Defense modes that we still aren't sure how to convert to 3.5; it can manifest Burst, Catfall, and Spider Climb each three times per day as a first-level Psion. Same number of RHD too, so there's no reason to not be Psionic if able since you get a bigger HD, the same saves, full BAB and 60' Darkvision. (Though unless you really want that second RHD to become Medium, you'll just trade out the one you have for a class level.)

Not much to them, but they're a 1-RHD creature (unless you want to be Medium). The article also has a section where the Skeleton, Zombie, and Fiendish templates are applied to the Dragon Newt, but those are literally just the base creature with a template.

[Morphic tide]

Put me down for LA +1 Small and LA +0 Medium.

Small is netting +5 to Rays and +6 to AC for little a Cleric, Druid, or Ardent cares about (at least by default), and if we follow monster advancement guidelines Medium should be +0 Strength/+4 Dex/+2 Con, which is a statline that's fine as far as Martial dips go (even just a flat-out Martial, to be honest...), even if Divine-casting archer seems to have basically zero deliberate support.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I mean, the spit is neat, and +6 Dex could make an okay rogue or swordsage, but I don't feel like this balances having -8 Int and not having arms (a thumbless rogue is really not the best thing either). Not by a long shot. Except if there's something I missed, I will vote LA-0 for the non-psionic version. Adding a few psionic powers isn't much, by I think it gives it some interest. At least enough that LA+0 may be justified.

[Tzardok]

So these are heavily implied to be amphibious ("just as comfortable out of the water as in it"), but are not explicitly so.

The amphibious trait didn't exist in 3.0 and was added later. See also skum not having the amphibious trait and air-breathing water-dwelling creatures like crocodiles and whales having the aquatic subtype.

[remetagross]

@Morphic Tide I can't agree here. The Str, Int and Cha penalties mean only the most minmaxed of Wis-based casters or archers will agree to take such a race. And even then, the nice swim speed is counterbalanced by an annoying 20ft land speed, the racial modifiers to skills are made void by the huge Int penalty that prevents any hope of investing into more than 1 skill, and you can barely hold a leather armour before succumbing to medium encumbrance. Granted, the medium version holds its own a little better, but then you can't swap these two annoying animal RHDs and the ability modifiers aren't worth that.

I think I'm going with LA+0 for the small version, and LA-0 for the medium version.

[Debatra]

Okay, for the sake of the people voting separately on Medium, I just want to point out that that's not a separate entry. I've just tried getting into the habit lately of listing the RHD you need to increase a size category since it's sometimes a low enough increase to be relevant (like if something is focused as a grappler).

[H_H_F_F]

I'm voting +0 for both. It's a good race, but not +1 good, not with that body shape. The PLA's don't make much of a difference, IMV.

[Troacctid]

The acid venom makes this an attractive choice for a rogue, with the PLAs offering some nice synergy with things rogues like to do. I don't think you really need hands if you're planning to build around your spittle attack, so the body shape is IMO not a huge problem. And that sort of build is also naturally dumping Strength, so the penalty there isn't a problem either. The way I see it, the main drawback here is the Int and Cha penalties. Losing those skill points hurts, and negatives to casting stats cuts off potential spellcasting rogue builds.

Looking back at similar animals from MM1, most of these tiny guys with this sort of statline ended up at +0 or -0. With that as the baseline, I can agree with +0 here. Even as a rogue, it's hard to fathom picking this over a flying animal such as the bat, hawk, or eagle. The poison spittle isn't that good, and most of the PLAs here are just poor imitations of flight.

[loky1109]

I vote +0 for all.

[Tzardok]

I think I agree with +0.

[Thurbane]

I'm giving a tentative +0 for the non-psionic, and +1 for the psionic version.

[Debatra]

Non-Psionic:
+1 - Morphic tide,
+0 - remetagross, H_H_F_F, Troacctid, loky1109, Tzardok, Thurbane
-0 - Beni-Kujaku,

Psionic:
+1 - Morphic tide, Thurbane
+0 - Beni-Kujaku, remetagross, H_H_F_F, Troacctid, loky1109, Tzardok

Looks like +0 for both. Next up is the Dreamfane.

[Debatra]

Dreamfane

Hanging against the stars like some giant bird or fabulous insect,
this creature's diaphanous body looks like it was woven from gauze and spiderwebs.
Twelve luminous eyes twist kaleidoscopically within its body,
and as you catch their gaze the world around you seems to shift and change.
...Yeah, best I got.

Size & Type: Large Fey (Incorporeal, Psionic)
Space/Reach: 10'/5'
HD: 11, 23 (Huge)
Speed: Fly 50' (Perfect) (...Noted as being six squares. Ugh.)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +6, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +6, Cha +8 - Net +18, one penalty
Natural Armor: N/A
Natural Weapons: One Primary Incorporeal Touch (Sleep)
Skill List: Concentration, Knowledge (Local), Listen, Spot
Body Shape: Indeterminate
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 9
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

DR 5/cold iron, immunity to mind-affecting, Power Resistance 21 (which is actually pretty good for this level), and the ability to see even in magical darkness cap off a decent chassis. Also, you have undefined fast healing and regeneration. No listed numbers or way to bypass the regen (or is that a 3.0 thing?).

So, first thing's first: You are very difficult to permanently kill. If you would "die" while in the physical world, you simply fall back into the Dreamscape. Though you can be killed there as well, presumably for good this time, this effectively makes you immortal for most practical purposes.

Second, you are undetectable by creatures who do not sleep and dream, even with most enhanced senses. Blindsight, blindsense, scent, and tremorsense are useless, as is the Touchsight power. Psionic True Seeing (and presumably the magical one as well) works though.

You have a 60' gaze attack that forces a Charisma-based will save vs a -4 circumstance penalty to attacks, saves, and skill checks for 1d6 rounds. Notably, there is no 24-hour immunity clause; so this thing goes off every round, and of course there's nothing that says the save penalty doesn't also apply to the gaze attack itself. The downside of course being that it's a regular gaze attack and not the kind you have to target as a standard action that we see occasionally. So your friends will want some kind of protection from that. (Of course, being unable to perceive you by being an Elf, Undead, etc works... while having its own problems.)

Your touch sends victims to sleep, with another Charisma-based will save to avoid it. This works as a Sleep spell (ugh), except with no HD limit (oh, okay then), and lasts until the victim is forced awake instead of only a few minutes.

Finally, you have a handful of Psi-Like Abilities, all but one being at ML9. DCs appear to be Charisma-based.
At-Will: Brain Lock (any non-mindless), Concealing Amorpha, Crisis of Breath (any non-mindless)
3/day: Dispel Psionics (+17 bonus... And I'm pretty sure that's a typo there and that 20 is supposed to say "dispel check 1d20" instead of just "dispel check 20"... but if this think automatically counts as nat-20ing its dispel checks, that would be more than a little nuts), Dream Travel (ML13, self only)
1/day: Death Urge

[Tzardok]

Also, you have undefined fast healing and regeneration. No listed numbers or way to bypass the regen (or is that a 3.0 thing?).

This is a 3.5 creature. Notice the annoying late 3.5 stat block and the lack of psionic attack/defense modes. This to me simply is a sign of an unfinished creature.

[Troacctid]

What a weird creature. I think it would be a great support character, though—it's hard to kill, and it boasts some reasonably potent disruptive abilities. It should be easy for it to slide into some supporty prestige class like heartfire fanner and fill the role of a beguiler-esque debuffer. I think +0 is probably fine.

[loky1109]

I vote +2 here.

[H_H_F_F]

Finally, you have a handful of Psi-Like Abilities, with only one of them having a listed ML, meaning the rest default to 9.

Wouldn't it be 11?

[Tzardok]

No, the ML of the Psi-Like abilities is listed as 9 (except for dream travel).