The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Mystic Muse]

I think +2 seems reasonable.

[Remuko]

I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?

agreed with this. +1

[Beni-Kujaku]

This template doesn't give casting, as far as I can tell. Just SLAs that key off sorc level for their CL.

I'm actually thinking this might be a strong +1. It's good, sure - but on what build is this worth 2 levels, especially when compared to other templates we've rated this high?

This is a genuine question, by the way, not a rhetorical device.

A Medium melee fighter (in the broad sense, not just a Fighter) with at least 6 HD? +18 stats is incredibly great (especially since it's mostly physical stats), SR 11+HD and NA+6 will help you tremendously in most situations, and a size increase has far-reaching benefits, including increased reach. The bite attack and SLAs are just icing on the cake. Also you're an aberration, if you want to abuse Alter Self to become a Carrion Crawler. Basically, it's just numbers, but damn are they good numbers.

Compared to a half-fiend, you have definitely worse SLAs and type (but since you're probably taking it with no RHD, the type isn't that impactful), and no DR, but slightly better stats (we like +8 Con), better natural armor, some poison and especially a size increase. I don't argue that it's better than half-fiend, but I don't feel comfortable allowing that for +1.
Basically, look at Spellwarped, which was the low-end of +2, and tell me a size increase (and more stats) would not make the drider better than being able to get +4 Str when a spell fails to pierce your SR.


Also, having the base creatures of the example drider be a hill dwarf and a goblin is so much devoid of any kind of sense that it physically hurts.

[Tzardok]

Spider goblin
Spider goblin
wobbles whatever a spider is wobblin'


By the way, if a human got this template, would it get an additional boost to Hide? It would after all be a hider.

[remetagross]

I agree that's an LA+2 - and a reasonably strong one at that. It wouldn't seem absurd to me to tack an LA+3 on this for a low-level environment. The amount of stat increases is immense, the size increase is really useful since it stacks with every other size increase trick (use Hidden Talent for Expansion since you don't qualify for Enlarge Person anymore). So yeah, a great template.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I agree that's an LA+2 - and a reasonably strong one at that. It wouldn't seem absurd to me to tack an LA+3 on this for a low-level environment. The amount of stat increases is immense, the size increase is really useful since it stacks with every other size increase trick (use Hidden Talent for Expansion since you don't qualify for Enlarge Person anymore). So yeah, a great template.

That's the thing, it can't really be put in a low-level environment, considering it's best if you're already Medium and increases your HD to 6

[H_H_F_F]

I guess that the Con+Size+SR makes it +2... Maybe I was too focused on how unimpressive the SLAs were.

[loky1109]

I still think it isn't great if came with extra 5 RHD.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I still think it isn't great if came with extra 5 RHD.

And a Revived Fossil isn't great if you put it on a pixie. And half-troll isn't great if you plan to go full caster. Every template has situations in which it doesn't work, Driderspawn (yeah, I'm not calling these ripoffs driders, they're not even divinely conceived!) doesn't work if the base creature has less than 6 RHD. It doesn't mean we should change the LA to account for everything at once.

[loky1109]

And a Revived Fossil isn't great if you put it on a pixie. And half-troll isn't great if you plan to go full caster. Every template has situations in which it doesn't work, Driderspawn (yeah, I'm not calling these ripoffs driders, they're not even divinely conceived!) doesn't work if the base creature has less than 6 RHD. It doesn't mean we should change the LA to account for everything at once.

Can't agree with you.
Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter.
Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2.
If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.

[H_H_F_F]

Tend to agree with loky here. This isn't just good/bad depending on the entry; this is a different mechanic within the template itself. I don't know if we should bother with it or just assume no one will take it before level 6, but it is different than just being good or bad for certain foes.

[Morphic tide]

Can't agree with you.
Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter.
Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2.
If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.

This is just a timing question, one that applies to many Acquired Templates. There are incredibly few cases where LA +2 makes any sense before 3HD, the damage to the early game is just too massive, and on a spellcaster you want 3rd level spells before eating LA because that's way too critical a power spike to delay. Also, it'd be Sorc 13/18, because 0th-level standard humanoids are an incredibly screwy RAW subject. As is what the heck happens when you put this on an innately-Large Humanoid.

Relative to an actual Drider, applying this template to a Drow is -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, alongside an extra use/day of Dancing Lights, Darkness, and Fairy Fire. For a Sorcerer, you're looking at a further loss of 6 HP out the gate, taking ECL 14 level to equalize, due to being d4 instead of d8 HD, and have -1 BAB, because "proper" Driders get their casting stacked on the RHD. You could equalize chassis with Battle Sorcerer, but that means you lose even more spellcasting. Granted, most any other race is gaining the SR, so I can see an argument for LA +2, but actual-Drider is in fact a plenty good use for your first six levels.

Given the breadth of detriments compared to actual-Drider, if we're looking at taking hard Sorcerer levels I'd say it should be LA +1. Yes, that results in the room for screwy template stacking, but "true" Driders can take Wizard casting while this needs to take Sorcerer levels in particular to get comparable SLA value and seems to be losing a lot compared to a "true" Drider.

[danielxcutter]

Not to mention that Driders also have access to Cleric and we all know how quickly that gets out of hand, especially with Drider stats.

[Troacctid]

Can you expound a little more on why you think sorcerer is the obvious class to pair this template with? It seems like a really counterintuitive choice to me, based on the stats it gives you.

[Metastachydium]

Can you expound a little more on why you think sorcerer is the obvious class to pair this template with? It seems like a really counterintuitive choice to me, based on the stats it gives you.

The CL of the SLAs is based on sorcerer level rather than class level or HD. Not that this is too much of a compelling argument, if you ask me. Those SLAs are as meh as it gets.

Can't agree with you.
Your examples are very different. Revived Fossil and half-troll can be better or worse based on base creature and his classes, Driderspawn is another matter.
Let's look. I make human sorcerer. I want 20 ECL. Let Driderspawn has LA +2.
If I apply template firstly, before first level it will be aberration 6/sorc 12. If I apply it after 6th level it will be sorc 18. Do you see difference? It looks like different templates and results in very different final power. And it's true for every classes, maybe except commoner.

Tend to agree with loky here. This isn't just good/bad depending on the entry; this is a different mechanic within the template itself. I don't know if we should bother with it or just assume no one will take it before level 6, but it is different than just being good or bad for certain foes.

I mean, as others have said, it's an acquired template. Why would you even do that? At that point, we may as well consider the possibility that you're doubling down on hating yourself and take commoner levels afterwards, only to conclude that it doesn't make a difference in the end.

A single, fixed +2 sounds reasonable enough for me.

[Troacctid]

The CL of the SLAs is based on sorcerer level rather than class level or HD. Not that this is too much of a compelling argument, if you ask me. Those SLAs are as meh as it gets.

Oh, of course. Gotta have as high a caster level as possible for those...dancing lights...and...detect evils. Yup!

[loky1109]

I mean, as others have said, it's an acquired template. Why would you even do that?

It can be done against my will. Like lycanthrope, vampire, etc.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, of course. Gotta have as high a caster level as possible for those...dancing lights.

I mean, I can see myself doing that for kicks and giggles, but still.

It can be done against my will. Like lycanthrope, vampire, etc.

Yup. It can. And in any given campaign that makes a lick of sense, picking up 5 RHD and these abilities as a first level character would probably be followed closely by becoming an NPC, at least for a while.

[Tzardok]

Or playing a short side adventure about searching for a cure.

[Morphic tide]

Oh, of course. Gotta have as high a caster level as possible for those...dancing lights...and...detect evils. Yup!

It also forcefully sets the Favored Class to it, it has a Charisma bonus, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. Jumping to Cleric to most cleanly match the "proper" Drider is ignoring basically everything but its raw +numbers, and said numbers are pretty redundant with a lot of Cleric build priorities. The actively-forced-to-be-CE aspect has some pretty harsh issues for Clerics, as well, restricting you to Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, and Neutral Evil deities.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Uhm, GreatWyrmGold? I think you accidentally posted in the wrong thread.

I have no idea what you're talking about, this is the right thread. I never posted this anywhere else.

Spoiler: Marginally Useful Notes

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One editorial thing I'd like to mention: The LA ratings of the undead variants never made it to their actual post.



I just remembered playing an online single-player version of that game in middle school, presumably also something that WotC made in a futile attempt to make the game profitable. I remember liking it at the time, but I had terrible taste and minimal exposure to non-D&D tabletop gaming in middle school.



I assume Granny Smith?

Spoiler: Jokes

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Fun concept for a cohort or something, but I don't know how much fun playing as someone else's Stand would be.

...I kinda want to do that sort of thing just to try it, but I don't know how I'd pull it off...



"Attempt" being the operative word here...



Genuinely shocked there's no reference to the pies being aimed at the target's face. This feels like it should have, I dunno, a rider that blinds the target until they take a move action to wipe the filling out of their eyes, negated by a Reflex save.

Now to stuff that's drider-relevant.

Also, having the base creatures of the example drider be a hill dwarf and a goblin is so much devoid of any kind of sense that it physically hurts.

I'm not sure why.

Though [driders] consider their form to be a blessing, they know that changing other creatures into driders constitutes hideous torture. Drow-based driders enjoy the irony of their blessing being any other creature's bane.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Driders inflict this form on their captives as an elaborate form of torture, albeit one that suits itself to a vengeful heroic backstory. (You know, if Drizzt Do'Urden's backstory is slightly too cliché for you.) The only question is whether driders would be likely to encounter dwarves or goblins, which...yeah. Hill dwarves and normal goblins probably aren't the most common things for drow to encounter, but they're not rare.


The arguments about whether or not we need to modify level adjustment for adding RHD in some but not all cases makes me wonder if we should asterisk that bit. It doesn't change much for campaigns starting at ECL 8 (assuming +2 LA) or above, but it would save a ton of arguing.
Though it would also set a precedent that asterisks can apply to abilities just because people argue about them a lot...

[Troacctid]

It also forcefully sets the Favored Class to it, it has a Charisma bonus, and the save DCs are Charisma-based. Jumping to Cleric to most cleanly match the "proper" Drider is ignoring basically everything but its raw +numbers, and said numbers are pretty redundant with a lot of Cleric build priorities. The actively-forced-to-be-CE aspect has some pretty harsh issues for Clerics, as well, restricting you to Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil, and Neutral Evil deities.

Which save DCs are you especially concerned with optimizing? I would have assumed it'd be the poison, since the stats here seem to lend themselves to a melee build, but that's Con-based, not Cha-based, right?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Which save DCs are you especially concerned with optimizing? I would have assumed it'd be the poison, since the stats here seem to lend themselves to a melee build, but that's Con-based, not Cha-based, right?

No argument which brings up Favored Class is just about the mechanics.

I don't think it's a particularly strong argument—I don't think we've given much consideration to what classes WotC thinks a species should use before now—but your counterargument is the wrong one to use here.

[Thurbane]

Another awkward one to rate: I'll throw my hat in with the LA +2 votes.

[Troacctid]

No argument which brings up Favored Class is just about the mechanics.

I don't think it's a particularly strong argument—I don't think we've given much consideration to what classes WotC thinks a species should use before now—but your counterargument is the wrong one to use here.

"You need to go sorcerer to have a decent caster level and save DCs for the SLAs" is 100% a mechanical argument. I'm just confused why you would care about CL and DC for any of these.

[Morphic tide]

Which save DCs are you especially concerned with optimizing? I would have assumed it'd be the poison, since the stats here seem to lend themselves to a melee build, but that's Con-based, not Cha-based, right?

...I thought the SLAs had something with a relevant save at first glance, but they manage to be exclusively Willing-required or no-save. Duration's still got its uses for the CL with regard to how many points-of-interest can be checked with all that Detection and the length of shutting down certain kinds of bother with Darkness/Faerie Fire, and it is a specific-class scaling nonetheless. It's a small touch pretty much just short of having explicit racial spellcasting, if you leave them at CL 1 then you might as well just be a Drow to enjoy SR on the cheap or go the full way to proper-Drider for the chassis benefits or something like Aranea with cheaper casting benefits.

Plus the matter that Cleric just... Doesn't really need anything this is giving by the time it's playable? Seriously, a 7th-level Cleric can already go full-BAB with durability bonus and start working to counter enemy magic, there's no qualitative benefit worth losing a spell level on the style of t1 already defined by "easily self-buff to be a high-end melee combatant". This template doesn't get Int bonus so it's not much good for Wizard. Which leave Sorcerer, who does in fact enjoy the Martial-facing bonuses with open class levels to get Gish PRCs up and running and the SLAs add up to being a very nice just-in-case that combine to mean quite the number of Spells Known able to be freed up.

No argument which brings up Favored Class is just about the mechanics.

I don't think it's a particularly strong argument—I don't think we've given much consideration to what classes WotC thinks a species should use before now—but your counterargument is the wrong one to use here.

When you run into a DM who enforces the multiclassing XP penalty rules, there is a lot of gish-type PRC stuff that gets incredibly annoying if you're not using your Favored Class to shut that off, which becomes considerably more the case when you're not getting the pseudo-theurge of the proper Drider. It's a rule, for all people absolutely despise it to the point of ignoring it the extremely vast majority of the time.

[Troacctid]

...I thought the SLAs had something with a relevant save at first glance, but they manage to be exclusively Willing-required or no-save. Duration's still got its uses for the CL with regard to how many points-of-interest can be checked with all that Detection and the length of shutting down certain kinds of bother with Darkness/Faerie Fire, and it is a specific-class scaling nonetheless. It's a small touch pretty much just short of having explicit racial spellcasting, if you leave them at CL 1 then you might as well just be a Drow to enjoy SR on the cheap or go the full way to proper-Drider for the chassis benefits or something like Aranea with cheaper casting benefits.

Compared to drow, though, this has about +2 LA's worth of Numbers.

Plus the matter that Cleric just... Doesn't really need anything this is giving by the time it's playable? Seriously, a 7th-level Cleric can already go full-BAB with durability bonus and start working to counter enemy magic, there's no qualitative benefit worth losing a spell level on the style of t1 already defined by "easily self-buff to be a high-end melee combatant". This template doesn't get Int bonus so it's not much good for Wizard. Which leave Sorcerer, who does in fact enjoy the Martial-facing bonuses with open class levels to get Gish PRCs up and running and the SLAs add up to being a very nice just-in-case that combine to mean quite the number of Spells Known able to be freed up.

Are cleric and sorcerer the only two options? The statline and especially the size increase are really heavily slanted towards a melee build IMO.

[Morphic tide]

Compared to drow, though, this has about +2 LA's worth of Numbers.

For a low-tier Martial and a fairly particular subset of t3 classes, maybe, but again those numbers are -12 ability scores and a worse chassis for anything but Cleric compared to the proper-Drider getting LA +2 with its racial spellcasting.

Are cleric and sorcerer the only two options? The statline and especially the size increase are really heavily slanted towards a melee build IMO.

Sorcerer's the one thing getting a good duration on those SLAs, and has quite the bounty of Gish support that synergizes extremely well with these numbers. Set-to Natural Armor means you want a base race with none, you want to be starting Medium but also get set-to 30 ft. speed so the rare Tiny Humanoid gets a normal speed, you lose subtypes so a lot of race-based stuff stops working, your skill bonus is Hide and Move Silently, and the majority of the ability score boost is Constitution.

For a particularly direct comparison on what LA +2 looks like, Spellwarped gives +14 abilities with +4 Str/Con/Int, the same SR, and when the SR goes off you get additional bonuses like +4 to an ability score or temporary HP or energy resistance or an actual bonus to movement speed, while Half-Dragon gives three Natural Attacks, +14 abilities, and if you're Large to start with it gives permanent double-land-speed flight and if that's off RHD it boosts them a die size and sets them to 6+Int skills to dramatically improve a lot of the options for being Large. Voidmind is a pile of rather useful immunities, slightly worse SR, three decent +numbers feats that pop up in prerequisites a lot, +10 abilities, and what can be pretty easily a save-or-lose. And the most Dumb Beater of them, Half-Troll, gets "free full heal between virtually every fight".

Pretty much all of them have qualitative advantages that cross-apply outside combat or are incredibly robust offensive or defensive benefits. This degree of blunt +numbers is pathetic compared to those LA +2 examples unless you go all-in on breaking game math by careful leverage that works much the same with the others, and it just so happens to have active mechanical incentive to be a Sorcerer, specifically, especially with PRC-qualification dips prone to multiclass XP penalty, like you tend to do for Gishes, which Sorcerers like being because it makes it take extremely few distinct spells to fight so they can reserve nearly all their Spells Known for utility.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Now to stuff that's drider-relevant


I'm not sure why.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Driders inflict this form on their captives as an elaborate form of torture, albeit one that suits itself to a vengeful heroic backstory. (You know, if Drizzt Do'Urden's backstory is slightly too cliché for you.) The only question is whether driders would be likely to encounter dwarves or goblins, which...yeah. Hill dwarves and normal goblins probably aren't the most common things for drow to encounter, but they're not rare.

I can't see the posts you are replying to.

For the Pie Fiend that's the difference between Tasha's Hideous Laughter (where you do throw pies at people's face) and pies so delicious that even if you throw them at the body‚ they will try to eat it.


And yeah‚ I made my "makes no sense" comment after having only read the beginning of the template lore and assuming it was supposed to be the regular‚ Lolth-induced drider‚ only as a template. I agree that driderspawns may be any race driders can encounter (although I still think it would make more sense to have a Duergar and a Svirfneblin than races from the surface)

Sorcerer's the one thing getting a good duration on those SLAs, and has quite the bounty of Gish support that synergizes extremely well with these numbers.

That's the thing. The SLAs are not the most attractive part of the template‚ by far. They're weak and basically do not rely on CL or Cha that much.

For a particularly direct comparison on what LA +2 looks like, Spellwarped gives +14 abilities with +4 Str/Con/Int, the same SR, and when the SR goes off you get additional bonuses like +4 to an ability score or temporary HP or energy resistance or an actual bonus to movement speed,

I really think you're forgetting the fact that Driderspawn gives you a size increase. A dwarf (Barbarian/Warblade) keeps their ability to move in heavy armor‚ gains the same bonuses as Spellwarped to speed‚ but permanently‚ has better stats‚ reach‚ more damage‚ more NA... Oh yeah‚ and a few SLAs. Not good ones mind you‚ but still Detect Alignment can be interesting. Yeah‚ they don't have the possibility to gain Energy Resistance‚ but they also don't need to ask their wizard to waste slots on them for it.

Pretty much all of them have qualitative advantages that cross-apply outside combat or are incredibly robust offensive or defensive benefits. This degree of blunt +numbers is pathetic compared to those LA +2 examples unless you go all-in on breaking game math by careful leverage that works much the same with the others,

I don't get how you get "pathetic when the numbers are basically strictly better than Spellwarped and on par with Half-Dragon.

it just so happens to have active mechanical incentive to be a Sorcerer, specifically, especially with PRC-qualification dips prone to multiclass XP penalty, like you tend to do for Gishes, which Sorcerers like being because it makes it take extremely few distinct spells to fight so they can reserve nearly all their Spells Known for utility.

I mean‚ you could go sorcerer. I just feel like you lose more than any other class‚ considering you're already one level behind in spellcasting. Deepwyrm drows have sorcerer and clerics as their favored class‚ but no PC-built Drow ever chooses these classes. Favored classes are a very weak incentive to choose a class compared to stat repartition.

[GreatWyrmGold]

When you run into a DM who enforces the multiclassing XP penalty rules, there is a lot of gish-type PRC stuff that gets incredibly annoying if you're not using your Favored Class to shut that off, which becomes considerably more the case when you're not getting the pseudo-theurge of the proper Drider. It's a rule, for all people absolutely despise it to the point of ignoring it the extremely vast majority of the time.

It's a rule that's only applicable to a very narrow range of builds. Putting aside that you need to be very specifically a sorcerer, and make that your main class if you want more than one dip (so—off the top of my head—a ranger with a couple levels of sorcerer who took the Arcane Archer class would still be penalized), if you have multiple dips you need to keep your dips close to the same level. A Sorcerer 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3 is gonna have problems—slightly fewer than if they didn't have a favored class, but still.

Your character's Favored Class has less mechanical impact than your alignment. Heck, 5e's Traits, Bonds, and Flaws have more mechanical impact than 3.5's Favored Classes—the former interact with Inspiration, which is used far more often than multiclassing penalties (and applies to every character).

I can't see the posts you are replying to.

...huh.

I mean‚ you could go sorcerer. I just feel like you lose more than any other class‚ considering you're already one level behind in spellcasting.

Not true! Archivists, beguilers, death masters, magewrights, wizards, and wu jen don't even get a +2 to their casting stat. There are more if you count prestige classes, but I dunno how many of them do things other than cast spells, and listing half a dozen classes is plenty to make my joke.