When is "early enough" for Resilient(Wis)?

[x3n0n]

So, when is "early enough" for Wisdom save proficiency?

Samurai and Gloom Stalker get it at level 7.
Fighters get Indomitable at level 9.
Monks don't get improved mental saves until level 14 (but hopefully have a +3 or +4 Wis mod by that time, which is more than many martials will have, plus Stillness of Mind to recover from charm or fright).
Rogues get Wis save proficiency at level 15 (!).
(Some races also get advantage on saves against various mental effects and/or spells for their whole career.)

If you _don't_ get another boost, when do you "need" Resilient (Wis) to avoid screwing over your party?
A lot of "typical build paths" put Resilient (Wis) around character level 12, using ASIs up through level 8 for things other than mental defense. Is that "too late"?

That is: at what levels have you (as DM or player) started seeing a significant increase in the prevalence of crippling Wis-targeted mental effects?

[solidork]

I think they're pretty prevalent throughout. Playing Ghosts of Saltmarsh, we faced a number of spellcasters that had Hold Person.

I think you can manage to get by until you start facing stuff that has save DCs that are impossible for you to make at your current bonus. I don't think I got it on my Warlock/Fighter until 16 and I don't really remember any major situations where it nearly got me killed - then again I tended to not get targeted much. "Around 12" is a pretty good time, Fighters have enough ASIs to pick it up a little earlier.

[Leon]

I'd say you don't "need" anything to avoid screwing your party over, your generally not going to be an inconvenience to your group if you don't have X feat for Y situation and if you do have a group that is like that then find better people to play with. Then again too much playing the "build" and less the character is prevalent on this and other forums.

Take the feat (any feat) Because you want it for what it does or can bring to your character.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think 8 is early enough, given that it provides a +4 bonus at 9. Before that I wouldn't think it's worth it. Beyond that I'd say ASAP, though somewhat dependent on party. If you've got a Paladin around with a +4 aura who tends to continue to cast Bless into mid-game then you can delay longer. Further still if you've got a Bard handing out inspiration dice. Overall, I'd for sure have a strategy set up for Wis saves by 12th at the latest.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, when is "early enough" for Wisdom save proficiency?

I take on on vHuman monks, and have taken it a few times on vhuman fighters.

That is: at what levels have you (as DM or player) started seeing a significant increase in the prevalence of crippling Wis-targeted mental effects?

Heck, wis saves start in Tier 1; harpies come to mind.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I take on on vHuman monks, and have taken it a few times on vhuman fighters.


Heck, wis saves start in Tier 1; harpies come to mind.

+2 (10%) to Wis saves seems a pretty poor way to spend a feat in tier 1. Even for casters, Res (Con) where you're making a lot of saves, +2 is hard to justify. I'll say this is too early.

[Frogreaver]

+2 (10%) to Wis saves seems a pretty poor way to spend a feat in tier 1. Even for casters, Res (Con) where you're making a lot of saves, +2 is hard to justify. I'll say this is too early.

Adding the +1 turns it into a new +3 for tier 1. Does that change anything?

[Dork_Forge]

+2 (10%) to Wis saves seems a pretty poor way to spend a feat in tier 1. Even for casters, Res (Con) where you're making a lot of saves, +2 is hard to justify. I'll say this is too early.

Remember, on a Monk it's also boosting an important stat.

[Hytheter]

I'd have to say, the fact that taking Res Wis seems to be considered a matter of when rather than if speaks to a design flaw in the game...

[Dork_Forge]

I'd have to say, the fact that taking Res Wis seems to be considered a matter of when rather than if speaks to a design flaw in the game...

More of a forum echo chamber thing I think

[strangebloke]

I like Lucky better, along with a cloak of resistance and some way of getting bless...

All the times I've taken it or seen it get taken it was around level 6 or 8.

[Kane0]

If youre looking at picking up resilient wis i'd probably put it at level 8, 10 or 12 ASI. Its around the time classes like the ranger, foghter and paladin tend to get their save boosts, its after youve had a chance to sink an ASI into a stat or feat you really want and its not too late to be useful against the really crippling late game save effects.

[Hael]

Its usually a tier3-4 feat. Saves really start to be the primary decider of how battles go at those levels, and so it starts to make more sense.

Very few builds are going to be finished capping their primary ASI and or fixing damage/concentration before that point. Maybe in games where the DM gives the player a feat?

[Silly Name]

I'd have to say, the fact that taking Res Wis seems to be considered a matter of when rather than if speaks to a design flaw in the game...

I've played and run campaigns that got to pretty high levels, and despite facing many casters and monsters with Save or Suck effects, I've never seen anyone feel like they had to take Res (Wis) - in fact, I don't think I've ever seen someone take it.

Is it nice to have Proficiency in Wisdom saves? Yeah. Would I consider it necessary? Nay.

[diplomancer]

I'd have to say, the fact that taking Res Wis seems to be considered a matter of when rather than if speaks to a design flaw in the game...

I think you're mostly right. One easy fix: eliminate the feat and give everyone a free choice of save proficiency at Character Level 11.

[tKUUNK]

I think 8 is early enough, given that it provides a +4 bonus at 9. Before that I wouldn't think it's worth it. Beyond that I'd say ASAP, though somewhat dependent on party. If you've got a Paladin around with a +4 aura who tends to continue to cast Bless into mid-game then you can delay longer. Further still if you've got a Bard handing out inspiration dice. Overall, I'd for sure have a strategy set up for Wis saves by 12th at the latest.

^ This is it right here, exactly. Well said!

[Gurgeh]

I think you're mostly right. One east fix: eliminate the feat and give everyone a free choice of save proficiency at Character Level 11.

I like this. Alternatively, let everyone add half proficiency to their non-proficient saves at the same threshold.

[Hytheter]

I think you're mostly right. One easy fix: eliminate the feat and give everyone a free choice of save proficiency at Character Level 11.

I like the way you think.

[Willie the Duck]

I'd have to say, the fact that taking Res Wis seems to be considered a matter of when rather than if speaks to a design flaw in the game...

There are two flaws that I think do kinda-sorta exist. One 1) is simply that there are feats that are consistently better and worse than the others in most cases. Resilient in one of the more-often-seen saves (Con, Dex, Wis) are on that list --in no small part because it is paired with a +1 in the stat, it is easy to end up with an odd score in them, and most characters benefit from increasing one's total modifier with those stats (even, say, a fighter with wisdom). The second is that, what save-or-suck spells* still exist in the game, most of them are Con- or Wis-based.
*plus losing concentration on a spell

More of a forum echo chamber thing I think

Agreed. A proficient Wisdom save is useful to anyone, but necessary to no one. Plenty of bards, for instance, pick Resilient:con for the concentration maintenance and go through the game with non-proficiency and a 10-12 wisdom.

It's simply on the list of top ~25% feats along with Crossbow Expert, Polearm Master, Lucky, and so on.

That said, if you are going to take it, I agree with Korvin -- there's no specific level that is too early.

[x3n0n]

Thanks to all!

I've heard/seen a bunch of horror stories where some character (typically a Fighter, Rogue, or Barbarian) is weak at mental saves, and one of the following happens (in decreasing severity):

• they're mind-controlled and actively hurt the party (typically due to something like a Vampire's Charm or dominate person),
• they're absolutely useless for a key battle (something like suggestion or hypnotic pattern or hold person), or
• they're much less effective (e.g., frightened effects for attackers, slow, charm person).

It sounds like there are a few categories in the responses:

• It's a non-issue and/or part of the game, just roll with it. (Note that Bards typically run the whole time with no bonus and few people complain.)
• More versatile, non-proficiency defenses are good enough (the Lucky feat, racial charm/fear protections, Paladin's auras (especially Protection, Courage, and Devotion))
• Early tier 3 (i.e., level 12) is early enough to avoid most of the hardest DCs and most crippling effects
• The earlier the better, especially if you can wrangle an otherwise-odd Wis and benefit from the bump

Am I missing anybody?

[Eldariel]

Agreed. A proficient Wisdom save is useful to anyone, but necessary to no one. Plenty of bards, for instance, pick Resilient:con for the concentration maintenance and go through the game with non-proficiency and a 10-12 wisdom.

It's simply on the list of top ~25% feats along with Crossbow Expert, Polearm Master, Lucky, and so on.

That said, if you are going to take it, I agree with Korvin -- there's no specific level that is too early.

Well, Wis-saves are one of the few things that can not only fully rob you of positive contributions and drop your Concentration, but even worse they can have you kill your own party. Which is about the worst thing that could happen, much worse than dying to random PWK or whatever.

As such, while not necessary, a party with especially martials without Wis profs is handicapping themselves pretty heavily on higher levels; you'll never know when a random Dominate has the Fighter/Barbarian dumping all their damage on an ally instead. Even worse on melee types who are pretty screwed over by fear-effects as they need to be able to approach to do anything.

Ranged casters ironically need it the least (even though most have it) since they can have Counterspell for many kinds of Dominate and are largely unaffected by fear since they don't often want to get closer anyways. Of course, they also typically have innate proficiencies so *shrug* (Bards and Sorcs don't I guess).

[diplomancer]

There are two flaws that I think do kinda-sorta exist. One 1) is simply that there are feats that are consistently better and worse than the others in most cases. Resilient in one of the more-often-seen saves (Con, Dex, Wis) are on that list --in no small part because it is paired with a +1 in the stat, it is easy to end up with an odd score in them, and most characters benefit from increasing one's total modifier with those stats (even, say, a fighter with wisdom). The second is that, what save-or-suck spells* still exist in the game, most of them are Con- or Wis-based.
*plus losing concentration on a spell


Agreed. A proficient Wisdom save is useful to anyone, but necessary to no one. Plenty of bards, for instance, pick Resilient:con for the concentration maintenance and go through the game with non-proficiency and a 10-12 wisdom.

It's simply on the list of top ~25% feats along with Crossbow Expert, Polearm Master, Lucky, and so on.

That said, if you are going to take it, I agree with Korvin -- there's no specific level that is too early.

Here's the thing; a feat everyone wants to take, and even feels needs to take, (whether it's Con or Wis makes small difference) is very much a feat tax; the same is not true for feats like PAM, GWM, XBE or SS.

And Bards are awesome; which is why they get a pass for the fact that they have definitely the worst saves of all classes; it's the Bard tax.

[Psyren]

While it's true Bards don't run around with the best Wis saves in the world, it's often moot because they have so many other ways of dealing with those attacks. They can target a weak save on the enemy and take them out first, or render themselves untargetable (e.g. invis/blind), or counterspell via MS, or rely on buffs like Heroism or Countercharm in a pinch.

A barbarian meanwhile has one option*, i.e. kill the thing before it gets a spell off - an option that's (a) also available to the bard (Swords/Valor especially), and (b) one that doesn't work too well against most monsters due to how HP scaling works.

*on their own

[Keravath]

Thanks to all!

I've heard/seen a bunch of horror stories where some character (typically a Fighter, Rogue, or Barbarian) is weak at mental saves, and one of the following happens (in decreasing severity):

• they're mind-controlled and actively hurt the party (typically due to something like a Vampire's Charm or dominate person),
• they're absolutely useless for a key battle (something like suggestion or hypnotic pattern or hold person), or
• they're much less effective (e.g., frightened effects for attackers, slow, charm person).

It sounds like there are a few categories in the responses:

• It's a non-issue and/or part of the game, just roll with it. (Note that Bards typically run the whole time with no bonus and few people complain.)
• More versatile, non-proficiency defenses are good enough (the Lucky feat, racial charm/fear protections, Paladin's auras (especially Protection, Courage, and Devotion))
• Early tier 3 (i.e., level 12) is early enough to avoid most of the hardest DCs and most crippling effects
• The earlier the better, especially if you can wrangle an otherwise-odd Wis and benefit from the bump

Am I missing anybody?

The "horror" stories happen. In a game I am running, the level 7 barbarian failed their wis save on hold person ... and continued to fail for about 3 combat rounds (they had a 10 wis and the DC was only 13 - but that is still more than 50% failure every round) .

It did not significantly affect the outcome of that particular fight because I had set it up as a fairly weak set of opponents but if that wasn't the case, the barbarian would have been taking critical hit after critical hit - as it was he took a couple before the strongest opponent was taken out by the rest of the party. The caster concentrating on the hold person had ducked into another room and wasn't an easy target to break concentration.

I've also seen a high tier 2 barbarian dominated and continue to fail wis saves while attacking the party. In that case, the DC was about 15 since it was late tier 2/early tier 3. DCs will typically be 17, 19 or 21 going through to tier 4. With that kind of DC, a -1 to +1 modifier on a wis save stands a good chance of keeping the character out of the fight or actively attacking the party for the entire combat.

However, this is where party composition and resources come into play. Dispel magic can end the effect. Attacks on the caster can disrupt concentration. So although the character has a bad save, if the party has decent resources and capabilities, the dominated/held/etc character isn't likely to be locked down for the entire fight. On the other hand, without those - it becomes a real issue since the character is unlikely to make the save on their own.

This is where resilient wisdom comes in ... it gives the character a chance (maybe not even a great one) to make the saving throw on their own thus saving themselves from the effect and saving the party from spending resources to end it. However, by late tier 2, the modifier for resilient wisdom is +4. Often this has been used to round up an odd stat so that it effectively becomes a +5 change at level 9+. If the previous wisdom was 11 the modifier goes from 0 to +5 which is a relatively large change in the chance for the character to rescue themselves from the effect. A DC 19 with a +0 is only a 10% chance of success. With a +5 this is 35%. The odds of saving within 3 rounds go from 27% to 73% or almost 3 times better than without resilient, so that the character might be able to end the condition themselves within 3 rounds combat.

If you have a good support party, you might be able to afford to go without it knowing that your character will be rescued by the party though it could end up draining party resources to rescue them from the effect.

That tends to be the logic involved. Based on that, most folks consider resilient wis at level 8 or 12 when the DCs start to increase and the odds of making the save without the proficiency start to drop.

P.S. Most of my bard characters multiclass into something with wis save proficiency at first level - either cleric or warlock - in part due to armor but also due to starting with a wis save proficiency instead of dex. Dex save proficiency tends to be more useful in mitigating damage (e.g. AoE spells than the other saves).

P.P.S. I find the combination of wis and cha saves to start is likely one of the better choices - cha due to the Banishment spell that comes into play when facing 7 level casters.

P.P.P.S. Hypnotic pattern is less of an issue since you can shake your party members awake or if you like you can try to hit them with an attack since doing any damage wakes the target up. (An NPC demon in one encounter I played attacked their minions who had been affected by hypnotic pattern to wake them up since it could wake three in one round and the damage wasn't enough to kill them).

[RogueJK]

Typically 8-12, depending on the character.

Occasionally at 4 or 6.

Basically never at 1.



It also depends on the DM. If you have few combats per day, Lucky could get you by, with the added versatility of being able to be applied to any save.

[Psyren]

I think part of the issue too is that, if you don't have proficiency in a save and you're not increasing the relevant ability score, then there is absolutely no scaling. A level 20 Barbarian can end up with the same Wis save as they had at level 1, but the monsters an spellcasters targeting that save scale upward the entire time.

This is one thing I think 4e (gasp!) might have done better than 5e - everyone got some degree of scaling with level, and proficiency was a flat bump on top of that. In 4e, your saves and checks went up by ½ level and then proficiency was +5 - you'd have to tweak that math considerably for 5e's bounded accuracy (maybe ¼ level round down, proficiency = +3 and expertise = +6) but the principle is sound.

This issue shows up in ability checks too - if you don't allow Athletics to apply for example, the only difference between a low-level barb and a high-level one breaking out of manacles is the latter can probably burn a rage for advantage on the check.

[RogueJK]

This is one thing I think 4e (gasp!) might have done better than 5e - everyone got some degree of scaling with level

3E was the same way. Even in your "bad" saves for a class, you still had level-based progression. Just not as much as with your "good" saves for that class.

[Psyren]

3E was the same way. Even in your "bad" saves for a class, you still had level-based progression. Just not as much as with your "good" saves for that class.

Right, but in 3e proficiency wasn't a binary, it was based on tracking individual skill ranks. I definitely don't want that to come back.

"Proficient vs. Not Proficient" is much more streamlined, there just needs to be some amount of scaling for "not proficient" to represent general adventuring experience and know-how.

[stoutstien]

Really depends on your game. If you world is somewhere you start facing a diverse array of save types early on then you can't really take it too soon. If your table tends to stick to the standard curve where Wis saves don't start showing up in earnest until late tier 2- early tier 3 then you could probably hold off.

Note you don't necessarily need Wis saving Prof if you have other ways to avoid the condition or other ways to modify your roll(s). One reason a pocket pally is a boon on the front lines.

[strangebloke]

Thanks to all!

I've heard/seen a bunch of horror stories where some character (typically a Fighter, Rogue, or Barbarian) is weak at mental saves, and one of the following happens (in decreasing severity):

• they're mind-controlled and actively hurt the party (typically due to something like a Vampire's Charm or dominate person),
• they're absolutely useless for a key battle (something like suggestion or hypnotic pattern or hold person), or
• they're much less effective (e.g., frightened effects for attackers, slow, charm person).

It sounds like there are a few categories in the responses:

• It's a non-issue and/or part of the game, just roll with it. (Note that Bards typically run the whole time with no bonus and few people complain.)
• More versatile, non-proficiency defenses are good enough (the Lucky feat, racial charm/fear protections, Paladin's auras (especially Protection, Courage, and Devotion))
• Early tier 3 (i.e., level 12) is early enough to avoid most of the hardest DCs and most crippling effects
• The earlier the better, especially if you can wrangle an otherwise-odd Wis and benefit from the bump

Am I missing anybody?

I think more generally what happens here is, most players don't feel they need saves protection... until you have one of these bad experiences, and then all they feel is regret for not taking some kind of saves protection earlier. The time to invest in defenses is always either "a bit later, after I get my offensive kit together" or "dang, why didn't I do this three levels ago?" Neither impulse is really correct. You can get by without taking defenses, and you may never run into a really devastating wisdom save, or party resources like auras and bless might be enough.

Bards are a weird case, since they're usually trying to stay way out of combat (And thus are less vulnerable to things like hold person) and also aren't as impacted by things like frightened or charm since they don't rely on attacks. Something like the frightened condition rooting you from moving forward is really hurtful to a melee archetype.