When is "early enough" for Resilient(Wis)?

[Dork_Forge]

I odn't think I've ever seen Res: Wis taken, usually PCs with weak Wis scores are aware of it, might even be wary of the effects that target it, but it becomes a group problem. Bless, Cosmic Omen, Paladin Aura, Bardic Inspiration, Inspiration, racial abilities all get pulled in to deal with the problem.

Outside of forum discussion I've never seen such heavy emphasis on Resilient, or even much consideration for feats, be that racial feats, ASIs or free feats I've awarded.

[Keravath]

I odn't think I've ever seen Res: Wis taken, usually PCs with weak Wis scores are aware of it, might even be wary of the effects that target it, but it becomes a group problem. Bless, Cosmic Omen, Paladin Aura, Bardic Inspiration, Inspiration, racial abilities all get pulled in to deal with the problem.

Outside of forum discussion I've never seen such heavy emphasis on Resilient, or even much consideration for feats, be that racial feats, ASIs or free feats I've awarded.

Everyone's experience is different. I have seen lots of characters with resilient wis or con. Resilient con can often be taken from level 1 by melee focused spell casters (e.g. melee hexblade, maybe moon druid since proficiency carries over to wild shapes and it can help keep that summon spell going at level 5 or other buff, sometimes bard might take resilient con at 1 or 4 especially a valor or swords bard that wants to maintain concentration - though warcaster might also be an option).

However, resilient wis isn't a common pick until level 12 (and obviously only on classes that don't have it already) when DC and frequency of encountering debilitating wisdom save effects go up. In a party with paladin/warlock/druid/cleric/wizard - no one takes it because everyone is proficient.

So, not running into folks who take resilient wis can be due to party composition, the folks you play with or level of play among other factors.

[Kane0]

I odn't think I've ever seen Res: Wis taken, usually PCs with weak Wis scores are aware of it, might even be wary of the effects that target it, but it becomes a group problem. Bless, Cosmic Omen, Paladin Aura, Bardic Inspiration, Inspiration, racial abilities all get pulled in to deal with the problem.

Outside of forum discussion I've never seen such heavy emphasis on Resilient, or even much consideration for feats, be that racial feats, ASIs or free feats I've awarded.

Took it for my current sorc, even though he already has gith fear/charm advantage and a Pally teammate that is prioritising cha. Its in his nature to be as mentally impregnable as possible, even picked up intellect fortress and a ring of mind shielding.
And coincidentally i took it at 8 after i took telekinetic at 4

[Dork_Forge]

Took it for my current sorc, even though he already has gith fear/charm advantage and a Pally teammate that is prioritising cha. Its in his nature to be as mentally impregnable as possible, even picked up intellect fortress and a ring of mind shielding.
And coincidentally i took it at 8 after i took telekinetic at 4

But did you take it because you felt like you needed to, or because it was appropriate for your character?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

One other thing that probably enters into the calculation is party size. Right now I'm playing with 2 groups; one has 3 characters and one has 5. A single failed Wis save in a key moment with the group of 3 could mean a TPK, while our group of 5 is more resilient to a single bad roll. Consequently, the party of 3 is a lot more careful to 1) have contingency plans for various events, and 2) build characters that are more defensive in nature.

[Kane0]

But did you take it because you felt like you needed to, or because it was appropriate for your character?

Bit of both, knowing that we would be in direct conflict with mindflayers and planar factions with mindcontrol technology for the forseeable future.

[Witty Username]

Outside of forum discussion I've never seen such heavy emphasis on Resilient, or even much consideration for feats, be that racial feats, ASIs or free feats I've awarded.

For Resilient(Con) I think I have seen taken a couple times. For casters I try to have at least one of the following, Resilient(Con), Warcaster or Lucky. Trying to pick the one that best fits the theme of the character.

And I would take Resilient (Wis) on a Barbarian, if I ever play one.
I think we have had 3 characters in our last 4 games that didn't have proficiency in wisdom saves, so that puts a damper on the feat. Edit: wait 5 in the last four, we had a couple bards.

[sithlordnergal]

More of a forum echo chamber thing I think

In this case I don't think its forum echo chamber issues. I just looked up all the printed spells that target mental saves via D&DBeyond. I have all the books on it, so I have access to all the spells that have been officially printed. For mental saves we have:


Intelligence: Only 9 spells target Intelligence, and only 2 of those are found in the PHB, which is...interesting. The most dangerous/debilitating spells include Feeblemind, Synaptic Static, and Psychic Scream. Psychic Scream is a 9th level spell that deals some damage, but also stuns you, Feeblemind is Feeblemind, and Synaptic Static is basically psychic Fireball that also imposes a -1d6 to attack rolls and ability checks if the target fails their save. So a little bit dangerous, but not overly so. You're not gonna run into Feeblemind that often.


Charisma: 14 spells target Charisma, these have a few more varying effects, with the hard CC of Charisma being Banishment. However, most of the effects change a creature's emotional state in an effect similar to Charm. Divine Word, Bane, and Forcecage are also some standout spells here.


Wisdom: 53 spells in total target Wisdom, and these spells are too varied to make a summation for. Charm, Frightened, Deafened, Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Unconscious...heck, there's even a Wisdom Save spell that causes you to be Prone, thank you Hideous Laughter. Basically, if you want to impart some kind of non-physical condition, good bet is that it'll be a Wisdom save. Heck, spells like Animal Friendship, Charm Animal/Person/Monster, and even Dominate Animal/Person/Monster are all Wisdom saves.


Basically, if the DM uses any sort of mental condition, chances are it'll be a Wisdom save of some sort. As such, you can get screwed over really hard really easily by having a low Wisdom save. And Resilient basically fixes that. I tend to make sure I always take it because of how important Wisdom saves are, doesn't matter if it fits the character or not. The effects from failing a Wisdom save are too debilitating, from the Frightened or Charmed conditions, to just being Incapacitated, Unconscious, or becoming an NPC under the DM's control via Dominate Person.


EDIT:

I odn't think I've ever seen Res: Wis taken, usually PCs with weak Wis scores are aware of it, might even be wary of the effects that target it, but it becomes a group problem. Bless, Cosmic Omen, Paladin Aura, Bardic Inspiration, Inspiration, racial abilities all get pulled in to deal with the problem.

Outside of forum discussion I've never seen such heavy emphasis on Resilient, or even much consideration for feats, be that racial feats, ASIs or free feats I've awarded.

While Bless, Bardic Inspiration, racial abilities, and Paladin Auras can help, they really can't do much if you only have +1 or +2 in Wisdom saves. Not when the DCs start going above 15. Not only that, but you're also forcing your party to build around your weakness in order to counteract it. Paladin Auras and Bardic Inspiration requires there to be:

A) A Paladin, Bard, or Druid

and

B) Require you to be close to the Paladin, or for the Bard/Druid to spend a limited resource on you instead of somewhere more useful.

Meanwhile racial abilities are nice, but again require you to be a certain race and only work on specific debuffs, not all Wisdom saves. As for Inspiration, that's handed out by the DM, and not something you can just have on hand. And not a lot of DMs remember it exist in my experience, not even myself. Which just leaves Bless...which is a decent spell, but its only a d4. Not gonna be that much help when you only have a +1 or +2 to Wisdom saves.



EDIT 2: As for the OP, I tend to take it at level 8, or around that depending on my multiclass build. You start to see those more dangerous DC's by levels 8, 9, and 10, at which point you'll want it. Until then the DCs are low enough that you can actually get by on +2 Wisdom and Bless.

[Dork_Forge]

In this case I don't think its forum echo chamber issues. I just looked up all the printed spells that target mental saves via D&DBeyond. I have all the books on it, so I have access to all the spells that have been officially printed. For mental saves we have:


Intelligence: Only 9 spells target Intelligence, and only 2 of those are found in the PHB, which is...interesting. The most dangerous/debilitating spells include Feeblemind, Synaptic Static, and Psychic Scream. Psychic Scream is a 9th level spell that deals some damage, but also stuns you, Feeblemind is Feeblemind, and Synaptic Static is basically psychic Fireball that also imposes a -1d6 to attack rolls and ability checks if the target fails their save. So a little bit dangerous, but not overly so. You're not gonna run into Feeblemind that often.


Charisma: 14 spells target Charisma, these have a few more varying effects, with the hard CC of Charisma being Banishment. However, most of the effects change a creature's emotional state in an effect similar to Charm. Divine Word, Bane, and Forcecage are also some standout spells here.


Wisdom: 53 spells in total target Wisdom, and these spells are too varied to make a summation for. Charm, Frightened, Deafened, Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Unconscious...heck, there's even a Wisdom Save spell that causes you to be Prone, thank you Hideous Laughter. Basically, if you want to impart some kind of non-physical condition, good bet is that it'll be a Wisdom save. Heck, spells like Animal Friendship, Charm Animal/Person/Monster, and even Dominate Animal/Person/Monster are all Wisdom saves.

I never said Wisdom saves weren't the predominant mental save, I said that the perception that one must have a good Wisdom save mod or that they must take Res:Wis is a forum echochamber.

An aside: Whilst I appreciate that you must have put some real effort into gathering those numbers, it doesn't really mean much. Spells get updated frequently, the spells that monsters actually use don't. Yes a DM can tweak it... but that is not the standard statblock. So the number of spells with Wis saves in the game =/= the number of spells that monsters will actually use on you.

Basically, if the DM uses any sort of mental condition, chances are it'll be a Wisdom save of some sort. As such, you can get screwed over really hard really easily by having a low Wisdom save. And Resilient basically fixes that. I tend to make sure I always take it because of how important Wisdom saves are, doesn't matter if it fits the character or not. The effects from failing a Wisdom save are too debilitating, from the Frightened or Charmed conditions, to just being Incapacitated, Unconscious, or becoming an NPC under the DM's control via Dominate Person.

Yes Wis saves are the most common mental ones, yes they can be a bad time, no taking Res:wis doesn't basically fix it. The Fighter in one of my parties has a -2 Wisdom, bumping that to a +2 with Res: Wis doesn't 'fix' anything.


This next part I do have a problem with, however:

While Bless, Bardic Inspiration, racial abilities, and Paladin Auras can help, they really can't do much if you only have +1 or +2 in Wisdom saves. Not when the DCs start going above 15. Not only that, but you're also forcing your party to build around your weakness in order to counteract it.

There is no building around a weakness. Paladin Auras and Bardic Inspiration are core class mechanics of popular classes. Support PCs are a popular PC archetype all on their own. People aren't coordinating to neutralise one weak save on a character that will sometimes come up in mid-high level play.

This is the first time you say it won't help... unless the DC is drastically off dice yes, yes they can and sometimes will.

Paladin Auras and Bardic Inspiration requires there to be:

A) A Paladin, Bard, or Druid

You keep saying Druid so I'm going to assume you're addressing Cosmic Omen without mentioning it. The subclass is going to be rare, the other two are popular classes out of potentially 13 choices. That is not that unlikely.

B) Require you to be close to the Paladin, or for the Bard/Druid to spend a limited resource on you instead of somewhere more useful.

Being within 10 ft of a Paladin isn't a stretch for the classes that might want it for Wis reasons. Framing a Bard inspiring you as a less useful use of that resource is just a baseless claim. What you use the inspiration for is up to you, could be a GWM hit, could be a save, but it's their core class feature and they get a lot of them. The Druid's Cosmic Omen is more narrow in scope, so I'm not really seeing that as a valid criticism.

Meanwhile racial abilities are nice, but again require you to be a certain race and only work on specific debuffs, not all Wisdom saves.

Vedalken literally get advantage on all mental saves. Kalashtar get advantage on all Wisdom saves. The blanket statement doesn't stand before you even start looking at OG Magic Resistance races and Gnomes for lesser coverage.

Halflings don't just get Brave, Lucky also reduces the chances or rolling badly on any save.

Yes you have to be a certain race to get certain benefits, that's obvious, but there are enough options that help in different ways that it ties into the overarching point you're missing.

As for Inspiration, that's handed out by the DM, and not something you can just have on hand. And not a lot of DMs remember it exist in my experience, not even myself.

Your personal experience is noted, I use it every session in my games. Not all tables are the same and it's part of the core rules.

Which just leaves Bless...which is a decent spell, but its only a d4. Not gonna be that much help when you only have a +1 or +2 to Wisdom saves.

Again with this, is it going to help if you roll poorly? No, is it going to help at various times in your career? Probably, and it stacks with various other things like auras and inspirations etc.

What you've done is nitpick and judge every individual thing I listed, but this was the actual point of what I was saying:

There's a lot of stuff that can help with Wis saves that come from almost every single aspect of the game. And some of them are so common, and so integral to the classes they come from, that it isn't a stretch of any degree that they might be at any given table. And the list was far from exhaustive! An Artificer's Flash of Genius, a high Portent roll, Favored by the Gods, Emboldening Bond, Twilight Sanctuary etc.

It's a team game with support abilities baked in all over the place, and that's the point of the examples I gave.

[Willie the Duck]

Here's the thing; a feat everyone wants to take, and even feels needs to take, (whether it's Con or Wis makes small difference) is very much a feat tax; the same is not true for feats like PAM, GWM, XBE or SS.

And Bards are awesome; which is why they get a pass for the fact that they have definitely the worst saves of all classes; it's the Bard tax.

I have no idea if there's a commonly accepted norm for the term feat tax (I've also seen it in a 3e context as an otherwise unworthy feat you have to take to qualify for a primo build option like a PrC). That said, I'm more sympathetic to this for 3e Natural Spell on druids that this here. Being able to make Wis and Con saves* is a serious concern for high-tier 5e play (although even there you can live with failing these saves, as the bard, pass or not, exemplifies). However, there are multiple ways of doing this (proficiency through the feat, pluses from Paladins/Bards/Bless, counterspells, etc.), making this feat a nice and convenient way of doing this, but certainly not the only way.
*Or otherwise not be subjected to the effects these saves defend against.

Simply beyond that, I'm not sure having this ability as a feat is the wrong way to go*. As this thread indicates, there are some varying ideas on when it is best to invest in this specific ability. By keeping it as a feat, you let people make that decision, in a way that making it a native class ability would not.
*assuming you are playing in a game with feats, and I strongly suspect in feat-less games where people expect to play to high levels, there will be a lot more paladins, samurai, and gloomstalkers than other types of martials

To be sure, I think it would have been nice if the saves were more well-distributed. Also that fighters and barbarians could have used more class abilities which helped defeat fear and paralysis effects (if for no other reason than thematic ones). But I'm not sure that resilient --as an optional feat--isn't doing it's job as it is supposed to do.

I never said Wisdom saves weren't the predominant mental save, I said that the perception that one must have a good Wisdom save mod or that they must take Res:Wis is a forum echochamber.

There are more diplomatic ways of saying this and much of the rest of this section. That said...

What you've done is nitpick and judge every individual thing I listed, but this was the actual point of what I was saying:

There's a lot of stuff that can help with Wis saves that come from almost every single aspect of the game. And some of them are so common, and so integral to the classes they come from, that it isn't a stretch of any degree that they might be at any given table. And the list was far from exhaustive! An Artificer's Flash of Genius, a high Portent roll, Favored by the Gods, Emboldening Bond, Twilight Sanctuary etc.

It's a team game with support abilities baked in all over the place, and that's the point of the examples I gave.

This is spot on. There are lots of ways to address this specific challenge, and a well-oiled adventuring party can contribute to each others' success. Probably more to the point, people in general seem to like having different options and ways ('builds,' etc.) to have characters to solve these problems.

[strangebloke]

a feat everyone wants to take is just a good feat. And resilient wis isn't even a feat everyone wants to take. If you add up all the classes who get it by default either at level 1 or later on, its most of the classes, and depending on party composition you don't need it at all. My BM surely could have taken it by now, but because he had an even WIS score and a melee paladin friend, he got lucky instead, which was a great choice.

[x3n0n]

It sounds like there are a few categories in the responses:

• ...
• More versatile, non-proficiency defenses are good enough (the Lucky feat, racial charm/fear protections, Paladin's auras (especially Protection, Courage, and Devotion))
• ...

In my earlier (quoted) post, I tried to summarize the responses into a few categories, and I think this whole second page has been focused on a "sub-category" of this that I had neither explicitly mentioned nor considered deeply enough.

If you are in a known party (as almost all non-AL players are), even if you don't have "built-in" defenses, your team may already have ways to mitigate this that don't require you to spend an ASI on it (and be happy to use them for this): for example, Bardic Inspiration, Countercharm, bless, Flash of Insight, the abovementioned Paladin auras, Twilight Sanctuary, etc.

Thanks to all!

[RogueJK]

If you add up all the classes who get it by default either at level 1 or later on, its most of the classes

Not really... The fact is that most classes and subclasses don't get WIS save proficiency.

Druids, Paladins, Warlocks, and Clerics get it at Level 1. Monks eventually get it (and everything else) at Level 14. Rogues eventually get it at Level 15. Beyond that, it's only Samurai Fighters and Gloomstalker Rangers at Level 7.


That's 4 of the 13 classes that get it at the start, two more that eventually get it ~75% of the way through their level progression, and 2 subclasses that get it ~33% of the way through their level progression. Call it roughly 4.7 out of 13 classes (4+0.25+0.25+0.1+0.1).

[Eldariel]

Not really... The fact is that most classes and subclasses don't get WIS save proficiency.

Druids, Paladins, Warlocks, and Clerics get it at Level 1. Monks eventually get it (and everything else) at Level 14. Rogues eventually get it at Level 15. Beyond that, it's only Samurai Fighters and Gloomstalker Rangers at Level 7.


That's 4 of the 13 classes that get it at the start, two more that eventually get it ~75% of the way through their level progression, and 2 subclasses that get it ~33% of the way through their level progression. Call it roughly 4.7 out of 13 classes (4+0.25+0.25+0.1+0.1).

Wizards do get it too.

[strangebloke]

Not really... The fact is that most classes and subclasses don't get WIS save proficiency.

Druids, Paladins, Warlocks, and Clerics get it at Level 1. Monks eventually get it (and everything else) at Level 14. Rogues eventually get it at Level 15. Beyond that, it's only Samurai Fighters and Gloomstalker Rangers at Level 7.


That's 4 of the 13 classes that get it at the start, two more that eventually get it in time for Tier 4, and 2 subclasses that get it halfway through Tier 2. Call it roughly 4.7 out of 13 classes (4+0.25+0.25+0.2).

Well, I was saying "gets it at level 1 or eventually" and that holds true for 7/13 classes and some subclasses or "most." You forgot Wizards.

I feel confident saying that there are a lot of characters that would never or almost never consider taking this feat. It's a half-feat, which are usually good, but also require a degree of planning to take, and ultimately there are a lot of other ways of covering your saves (what X3non calls 'More versatile, non-proficiency defenses')

As a rule though, the right time to take Resilient wisdom is either "eventually" or "dang I should have taken it three levels ago."

[Dr.Samurai]

Not really... The fact is that most classes and subclasses don't get WIS save proficiency.

Druids, Paladins, Warlocks, and Clerics get it at Level 1. Monks eventually get it (and everything else) at Level 14. Rogues eventually get it at Level 15. Beyond that, it's only Samurai Fighters and Gloomstalker Rangers at Level 7.


That's 4 of the 13 classes that get it at the start, two more that eventually get it ~75% of the way through their level progression, and 2 subclasses that get it ~33% of the way through their level progression. Call it roughly 4.7 out of 13 classes (4+0.25+0.25+0.1+0.1).

I think the point Strangebloke was making is that not everyone will want to take Resilient(Wisdom), and part of the reason for that is that most classes already get proficiency in Wisdom at one level or another. Seven out of thirteen is a majority, at least. When you factor that in with party composition (classes that can help allies defend against will saves), the number of people that want to take Resilient(Wisdom) goes down further.

EDIT: Ninja'ed by the bloke himself!

[KorvinStarmast]

+2 (10%) to Wis saves seems a pretty poor way to spend a feat in tier 1. ... I'll say this is too early.

For point buy, it turns a 15 Wis into a 16, gives proficiency in an often used save, and boosts my AC by one thanks to having Wis 16 and Dex 16. The build default for me is Dex 15 Con 13 Wis 15 and I add one to each: Dex and Con from vHuman, Wis from the feat.

Remember, on a Monk it's also boosting an important stat.

Thank you sir.

[sithlordnergal]

I never said Wisdom saves weren't the predominant mental save, I said that the perception that one must have a good Wisdom save mod or that they must take Res:Wis is a forum echochamber.

An aside: Whilst I appreciate that you must have put some real effort into gathering those numbers, it doesn't really mean much. Spells get updated frequently, the spells that monsters actually use don't. Yes a DM can tweak it... but that is not the standard statblock. So the number of spells with Wis saves in the game =/= the number of spells that monsters will actually use on you.


Yes Wis saves are the most common mental ones, yes they can be a bad time, no taking Res:wis doesn't basically fix it. The Fighter in one of my parties has a -2 Wisdom, bumping that to a +2 with Res: Wis doesn't 'fix' anything.

The fact that Wisdom saves are so predominant in the game is the very reason why you need a decent Wisdom save. And while not as many monsters use spells anymore, Monsters tend to follow that train of abilities using Wisdom saves to apply debuffs. I've found that if X ability does something that a spell can replicate, they tend to use the same save as the spell would. Now, there are some exceptions, like Mindflayers, that make use of Intelligence or Charisma saves, but they're the exception to the rule.

And I would actually say Res: Wis would help make up for that -2 penalty your fighter has, especially since it turns that -2 into a +1 as soon as the party reaches level 5. It won't fix it, but with such low Wisdom, nothing will "fix" it alone. And your player hopefully went into building this character knowing that they'll likely never be able to actually approach a Dragon once its used its fear effect and that they're gonna spend a loooot of time with some sort of status effect that hinders them, and by extension the party, unless the entire party bands together and gives him buff upon buff to make him useful.

---Snip---

Yeah, it kind of is building to shore up another player's weaknesses. In order to gain the benefits of something like the Paladin's Aura, Bardic Inspiration, and Cosmic Omen, you need to be those classes. Same holds true for the rest of the class abilities. A lot of those are also limited use resources. Maybe I'm selfish and crazy, but when I'm playing a Bard, I'd rather give my Bardic Inspiration to someone who already has a decent statistical chance of succeeding at a thing over giving it to the guy with a -2 Wisdom save. Because chances are, all that will happen is they'll waste the Inspiration or immediately get stunned again. My resources are better spent elsewhere, on a more productive party member. And heck, I even know a few players that would refuse to heal a character with -2 to Wisdom saves, and exclude them from buffs, just because they want that character to die and be replaced with someone that has a higher Wisdom score.

And consider this, while you're right that there are a lot of ways to help boost Wisdom saves, you're basically using all these different resources, class abilities, and racial options to achieve something that Res: Wis will generally net you. A good Wisdom save. And while Res:Wis won't fix every single bad save, as you pointed out it won't do anything to help your -2 Wisdom Fighter, it can make, say, a 12 Wisdom become a passible wisdom save.

As for DC 15+ being "drastically off dice", I find its actually pretty common once you hit CR 10 and above. Heck, CR 10 alone runs the gambit of having 14 to 18 as Monster DCs. Though you are correct, that is mid-high level play, and if you never see those mid-high level games then you're fine without it. Which is why I feel you can hold off on Res: Wis until level 8. But the moment you start seeing those, characters who cannot consistently succeed on a 15+ Wisdom Save become a hinderance.

[Mjolnirbear]

Personally... I have never taken Resilient in any form, and never will.

In the event that the DM chooses to, say, mind control your character, it's really hard to notice the difference between your roll before the feat and the roll after. It adds a passive number that is only helpful in the grand scheme of things, over time. If I were frightened enough of spells to get Resilient: Wisdom, then it's easier to just play a gnome.

Granted I am biased about feats that dont allow you do so something interesting. It's a massive cost and all you do is check "proficient" on your character sheet and literally never look at it again. Even Skilled, which arguably does the same thing, gives you things you as a player can choose to use, because you decide what your character does. And honestly, how often do you get mind controlled? Almost never in my experience. Even if you do have an enemy caster, the DM is gonna have one, maybe two chances to mind control a party member before the NPC dies, and even if they try, and succeed, to mind control your character, that means the NPC has NOT case something much more annoying, like Wall of Force or Fog Cloud or Darkness.

And in the most popular use case (Resilient: Constitution for spellcasters) I'd always prefer Warcaster because it gives you a bonus to concentration saves and also lets you do cool things with spells as a reaction. Not every fight has a spellcaster with mind control, but every fight has enemies that move.

You are under no obligation to optimise for your party either. And mind control spells typically a) let you save every time your turn ends or b) end when the caster dies or c) end when the caster loses concentration after the battlemaster has attacked them 7 times.

My advise is to use the feat for something interesting that adds to what your character can do.

[Pex]

Take it when you feel like it. I've had characters not proficient in WI save never take it. My 8/4/4 barbarian/fighter/rogue took at 16th character level because during 15th level I failed to save vs a fear effect twice at the wrong times and hated it. Not that there are ever right times but more those combats were really important. My latest character artificer took it at 4th level because I'm playing in a gothic horror campaign and felt it prudent insurance against future enemies.

[kazaryu]

I'd have to say, the fact that taking Res Wis seems to be considered a matter of when rather than if speaks to a design flaw in the game...

nah. optimizers gonna optimize, and thats the only context where Res (wis) is considered a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'. well, that and in specific groups where the DM likes to throw charms, holds and major fears (specifically referring to fears that do things besides just the condition. like paralysis or force you to flee). and thats not a design flaw, its how a Meta works. the only way to design a game that is actually perfectly balanced, no matter what, is to use symettrical balance. which is a more drastic version of how 4e worked. But so long as assymetry exists in the design, there's always going to be options that people consider 'optimal'.

[Kane0]

Personally... I have never taken Resilient in any form, and never will.

In the event that the DM chooses to, say, mind control your character, it's really hard to notice the difference between your roll before the feat and the roll after. It adds a passive number that is only helpful in the grand scheme of things, over time. If I were frightened enough of spells to get Resilient: Wisdom, then it's easier to just play a gnome.

Granted I am biased about feats that dont allow you do so something interesting. It's a massive cost and all you do is check "proficient" on your character sheet and literally never look at it again.

My advise is to use the feat for something interesting that adds to what your character can do.

I broke up Resilient into three feats using the old 3rd ed Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, and replaced the +1 to corresponding stat with other items so they aren't half feats and hopefully have more interesting benefits. Great Fortitude allows you to make continual/ongoing saving throws at either the start or end of your turn (your choice), Lightning Reflexes gives you a bonus reaction once per short rest. Still haven't found a nice secondary benefit for Iron Will, Psychic damage resistance feels pretty meh.

[diplomancer]

Not really... The fact is that most classes and subclasses don't get WIS save proficiency.

Druids, Paladins, Warlocks, and Clerics get it at Level 1. Monks eventually get it (and everything else) at Level 14. Rogues eventually get it at Level 15. Beyond that, it's only Samurai Fighters and Gloomstalker Rangers at Level 7.


That's 4 of the 13 classes that get it at the start, two more that eventually get it ~75% of the way through their level progression, and 2 subclasses that get it ~33% of the way through their level progression. Call it roughly 4.7 out of 13 classes (4+0.25+0.25+0.1+0.1).

So, 5 classes get Wis save proficiency at 1. Of the 8 that don't, two have good incentives to raise Wisdom (Ranger and Monk), which means that they will still have decent Wis saves even without it, and 2 are quite SAD and get extra ASIs (Fighters and Rogues). So it's really only 4 classes that have to "go the extra mile" to have decent Wis saves (Sorcerers, Artificers, Barbarians, and Bards), and only one of those, Bards, has a really tough choice on whether to get Res (wis) or Res (con).