Fizbans made Dragon Fear A Lot better

[strangebloke]

Dragon Fear is a feat almost nobody takes. But the specific wording of it is such that it got a lot better with Fizban's dragonborn.

The text reads "instead of exhaling destructive energy." The only action economy specified is that you're doing this instead of a breath weapon. This means that the action economy of dragon fear is the same as the breath weapon its replacing. So on a fizban's dragonborn, dragon fear now has "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of your attacks with..." as its action requirement rather than the oldschool "You can use your action to..."

This obviously makes it more efficient from the action economy standpoint, but it also means that dragon fear plays nicer with things that rely on you taking the attack action, like TWF or PAM or Flurry of Blows.

This seems like a really strong way to add a massive AoE CC ability onto a martial character. Works really well with Conq pally of course, but there are a lot of martials who would want something like this.

[HER01K]

Dragon Fear + Conquest Paladin isn’t as good as you might initially think. Dragon Fear gets a repeat saving throw whenever you take damage, and the aura deals a small amount of psychic damage every turn, giving an enemy a bunch of additional saving throws per turn. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still good (or at least better than before), just not as good as initially thought.

Other than that, you’re not wrong about Dragon Fear being a much better feat with the new Dragonborn changes. I am curious if it’s optimal yet, though.

[stoutstien]

Dragon Fear is a feat almost nobody takes. But the specific wording of it is such that it got a lot better with Fizban's dragonborn.

The text reads "instead of exhaling destructive energy." The only action economy specified is that you're doing this instead of a breath weapon. This means that the action economy of dragon fear is the same as the breath weapon its replacing. So on a fizban's dragonborn, dragon fear now has "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of your attacks with..." as its action requirement rather than the oldschool "You can use your action to..."

This obviously makes it more efficient from the action economy standpoint, but it also means that dragon fear plays nicer with things that rely on you taking the attack action, like TWF or PAM or Flurry of Blows.

This seems like a really strong way to add a massive AoE CC ability onto a martial character. Works really well with Conq pally of course, but there are a lot of martials who would want something like this.

It's ok but it doesn't really work with twf or PaM due to needed to attack with said weapon to fill the requirement for the bonus action one. It's A option for conquest pallys but overall I'd just stick with the metallic dragon's breaths.

[strangebloke]

Dragon Fear + Conquest Paladin isn’t as good as you might initially think. Dragon Fear gets a repeat saving throw whenever you take damage, and the aura deals a small amount of psychic damage very turn, giving an enemy a bunch of additional saving throws per turn. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still good (or at least), just not as good as initially thought.

Other than that, you’re not wrong about Dragon Fear being a much better feat with the new Dragonborn changes. I am curious if it’s optimal yet, though.

Oh I know, but that's still only 1 save a turn, no more than say leonin roar or conq CD gives. Admittedly its at the start of the turn which is less good, but conq CD uses an action and leonin roar is 10 foot only. 30 foot radius as part of an attack action with no friendly fire and no repeat saves if they don't take damage is juicy.

It's ok but it doesn't really work with twf or PaM due to needed to attack with said weapon to fill the requirement for the bonus action one. It's A option for conquest pallys but overall I'd just stick with the metallic dragon's breaths.

no, you can dragon fear, attack, PAM. You're only using half of the attack action on the roar.

as for metallic, you can actually use the metallic breath and dragon fear on the same attack action.

[DigitalCharlie]

As someone playing a dragonborn swords bard... I agree. I'm looking forward to level 14 when I can feel like a real dragon. Attack, roar, and draconic transformation for a breath weapon. I'm a real dragon! I mean sure I could do that with shapechange and true polymorph BUT THIS IS COOL TOO.

[Dalinar]

It's decent with Conquest provided you don't go past 6.

I'm veeeery curious how it'll play with Fey Wanderer, though. You turn saves into more saves...

[Greywander]

Dragonborn Conquest paladin with Dragon Fear has been on my list to play at some point for a little while. It's true that damage can end it early, but you don't always need it to last more than a round to make a big difference. The action economy cost is cheap at just one of your two attacks, and you can use it up to six times per long rest. You have to know how to use it properly. If you want a long-term shutdown, use Wrathful Smite. If you're facing a large group of mooks and just need to stop them for a round while you wait for the wizard's turn to Fireball, that's when you use Dragon Fear. It's a great tool to have in your arsenal, it just isn't applicable to every situation. A Conquest paladin can never have too many ways to generate fear.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's decent with Conquest provided you don't go past 6.

I'm veeeery curious how it'll play with Fey Wanderer, though. You turn saves into more saves...

This would be cool. The only issue is that Dragon Fear's DC is based on Charisma, and Fey Wanderer wants Wisdom instead. But yes, the interaction between Dragon Fear and Beguiling Twist is interesting. You almost want them to fail the save as Beguiling Twist doesn't allow a save when they take damage.

[RogueJK]

It's ok but it doesn't really work with twf or PaM due to needed to attack with said weapon to fill the requirement for the bonus action one.

That was true with the original version of the Dragonborn, but not the updated version in Fizban's.

Originally, using the breath weapon was an Action. So if you use your Action for the Breath Weapon, you couldn't use your Bonus Action to make a TWF/PAM attack, since you didn't make an attack to trigger TWF/PAM.

However, the new version allows you to substitute an exhalation of your breath weapon in place of one weapon attack when you take the Attack Action. So once Extra Attack comes online at Level 5, you can take the Attack Action for Weapon + Breath + BA TWF/PAM Weapon attacks.


The primary downside of the Dragon Fear feat is that it's CHA-based, while the Dragonborn breath weapons are CON-based. So it becomes a little MAD if you're wanting to be able to optimize both breath weapon options (or all 4 in the case of a Fizban's Metallic Dragonborn, who get two additional breath options).

[Dalinar]

This would be cool. The only issue is that Dragon Fear's DC is based on Charisma, and Fey Wanderer wants Wisdom instead. But yes, the interaction between Dragon Fear and Beguiling Twist is interesting. You almost want them to fail the save as Beguiling Twist doesn't allow a save when they take damage.

I haven't fully built it out yet, but the other thing about Fey Wanderer is the thing where you add your WIS score to CHA checks; my plan would be to double down on this by multiclassing into a CHA caster anyway, potentially Bard of some variety. It'd be pretty MAD, but I still think it could be cool.

[strangebloke]

While the synergy with conquest is there, I think people are underrating how good this is in isolation. As a half feat this doesn't have to slow your progression at all, and I feel the need to reiterate its a thirty foot radius with no friendly fire and no repeat saves without damage. Everyone who fails gets disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for the rest of the combat. No concentration, no repeat saves. Like, think about fear. That's a really good 3rd level spell, yeah? Fear, when compared to Dragon Fear has a

• worse AOE
• inflicts friendly fire
• uses concentration / can be disrupted by damage
• can be counterspelled
• uses a whole action instead of half an attack action
• allows repeat saves if line of sight is broken, meaning that sometimes the spell's effect only lasts 1 turn.

Now, this isn't to say Dragon Fear is strictly better; Fear does send those who failed saves running, which is good for setting up OAs and cheesgraters as well as actually getting rid of their actions for the turn (dragon fear only gives everyone disadvantage on attacks) But I think its fair to say that they're comparable, yeah? And you get to use it PROF times per long rest.

Now it is true that a lot of enemies are outright immune to the frightened condition, or are otherwise just unlikely to fail a WIS save, but you're still going to get good value out of it most days, especially if you'd normally struggle to contribute against a horde.

[Guy Lombard-O]

While the synergy with conquest is there, I think people are underrating how good this is in isolation. As a half feat this doesn't have to slow your progression at all, and I feel the need to reiterate its a thirty foot radius with no friendly fire and no repeat saves without damage. Everyone who fails gets disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for the rest of the combat. No concentration, no repeat saves. Like, think about fear. That's a really good 3rd level spell, yeah? Fear, when compared to Dragon Fear has a

• worse AOE
• inflicts friendly fire
• uses concentration / can be disrupted by damage
• can be counterspelled
• uses a whole action instead of half an attack action
• allows repeat saves if line of sight is broken, meaning that sometimes the spell's effect only lasts 1 turn.

Now, this isn't to say Dragon Fear is strictly better; Fear does send those who failed saves running, which is good for setting up OAs and cheesgraters as well as actually getting rid of their actions for the turn (dragon fear only gives everyone disadvantage on attacks) But I think its fair to say that they're comparable, yeah? And you get to use it PROF times per long rest.

Now it is true that a lot of enemies are outright immune to the frightened condition, or are otherwise immune to the frightened condition, but you're still going to get good value out of it most days, especially if you'd normally struggle to contribute against a horde.

I've built a very solid gem dragonborn battlefield control fighter recently. Used Rune Knight with Dragon Fear, expertise in grappling, and Fire & Stone runes for additional control options. He uses DF to keep some of the mooks away (and making ranged attacks at disadvantage), then grapple/prone nerf one or two unaffected targets for easy disposal by other party members, mind-banish another with Stone rune, and lay the Fire rune on the most dangerous of those remaining when possible.

He does little actual damage himself, but he dominates the battlefield much of the time and keeps the party safe. And none of his abilities require concentration, nor can they be dispelled. So they're all sort of hard to escape from unless they flat out make the saves.

[Dr.Samurai]

While the synergy with conquest is there, I think people are underrating how good this is in isolation. As a half feat this doesn't have to slow your progression at all, and I feel the need to reiterate its a thirty foot radius with no friendly fire and no repeat saves without damage. Everyone who fails gets disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for the rest of the combat. No concentration, no repeat saves. Like, think about fear. That's a really good 3rd level spell, yeah? Fear, when compared to Dragon Fear has a

• worse AOE
• inflicts friendly fire
• uses concentration / can be disrupted by damage
• can be counterspelled
• uses a whole action instead of half an attack action
• allows repeat saves if line of sight is broken, meaning that sometimes the spell's effect only lasts 1 turn.

Now, this isn't to say Dragon Fear is strictly better; Fear does send those who failed saves running, which is good for setting up OAs and cheesgraters as well as actually getting rid of their actions for the turn (dragon fear only gives everyone disadvantage on attacks) But I think its fair to say that they're comparable, yeah? And you get to use it PROF times per long rest.

Now it is true that a lot of enemies are outright immune to the frightened condition, or are otherwise immune to the frightened condition, but you're still going to get good value out of it most days, especially if you'd normally struggle to contribute against a horde.

Agreed, it's very impactful.

What's interesting too is that with his feat, a Metallic Dragonborn can target Dex saves, Con saves, Str saves, or Wis saves with their breath weapon.

[sambojin]

I wonder how well this interacts with multiattack in wildshape? Because you're taking the attack action, you're replacing one of your attacks still. It should probably work.

Mostly just mentioning it because plenty of forms have a good attack and a bad attack (bear, Giant eagle, etc), so replacing one of them with dragon fear seems like less of a loss sometimes. Oh, and you can do Draconic Transformation or ride around on a Draconic Spirit while you do it, just for more dragon'ness.

[strangebloke]

I've built a very solid gem dragonborn battlefield control fighter recently. Used Rune Knight with Dragon Fear, expertise in grappling, and Fire & Stone runes for additional control options. He uses DF to keep some of the mooks away (and making ranged attacks at disadvantage), then grapple/prone nerf one or two unaffected targets for easy disposal by other party members, mind-banish another with Stone rune, and lay the Fire rune on the most dangerous of those remaining when possible.

He does little actual damage himself, but he dominates the battlefield much of the time and keeps the party safe. And none of his abilities require concentration, nor can they be dispelled. So they're all sort of hard to escape from unless they flat out make the saves.

Oh that sounds very fun.... makes me want to try it.

I wonder how well this interacts with multiattack in wildshape? Because you're taking the attack action, you're replacing one of your attacks still. It should probably work.

Mostly just mentioning it because plenty of forms have a good attack and a bad attack (bear, Giant eagle, etc), so replacing one of them with dragon fear seems like less of a loss sometimes. Oh, and you can do Draconic Transformation or ride around on a Draconic Spirit while you do it, just for more dragon'ness.

It doesn't work at all, unfortunately.

Multiattack isn't the attack action. It's the multiattack action, which is much worse. You can't replace individual attacks with grapples, shoves, or breath attacks. You can take the attack action while wildshaped - but you only get one attack unless you have extra attack.

[stoutstien]

That was true with the original version of the Dragonborn, but not the updated version in Fizban's.

Originally, using the breath weapon was an Action. So if you use your Action for the Breath Weapon, you couldn't use your Bonus Action to make a TWF/PAM attack, since you didn't make an attack to trigger TWF/PAM.

However, the new version allows you to substitute an exhalation of your breath weapon in place of one weapon attack when you take the Attack Action. So once Extra Attack comes online at Level 5, you can take the Attack Action for Weapon + Breath + BA TWF/PAM Weapon attacks.


The primary downside of the Dragon Fear feat is that it's CHA-based, while the Dragonborn breath weapons are CON-based. So it becomes a little MAD if you're wanting to be able to optimize both breath weapon options (or all 4 in the case of a Fizban's Metallic Dragonborn, who get two additional breath options).

Sure but thx feat isn't doings the leg work here it's the racial option.
Not to mention any bonus action attack is conflicting with the best fear feeder with wrathful smite.

[RogueJK]

I've built a very solid gem dragonborn battlefield control fighter recently. Used Rune Knight with Dragon Fear, expertise in grappling, and Fire & Stone runes for additional control options. He uses DF to keep some of the mooks away (and making ranged attacks at disadvantage), then grapple/prone nerf one or two unaffected targets for easy disposal by other party members, mind-banish another with Stone rune, and lay the Fire rune on the most dangerous of those remaining when possible.

He does little actual damage himself, but he dominates the battlefield much of the time and keeps the party safe. And none of his abilities require concentration, nor can they be dispelled. So they're all sort of hard to escape from unless they flat out make the saves.

That does sound like a fun build, if a bit MAD. What are your stats like?

Seems like you'd need a high STR for attack/grappling, high CON for Runes and normal Dragon Breath save DCs, and a high CHA for Dragon Fear save DC, plus a moderate WIS for important saves, and ideally a decent DEX too (although that'd probably be a bridge too far)...

With point buy, you'd probably be looking at something like:
STR 14+2
DEX 9
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 14
Then Dragon Fear (15 CON or 17 STR) at Level 4, Skill Expert (Athletics Expertise, 16 CON or 18 STR) at Level 6, and Resilient WIS (14 WIS) at Level 8. Your various save CHA/CON-based save DCs won't be super optimized, but seems like it could be a fun build with several options to handle different scenarios.

It'd be more workable if your DM allows your Dragon Fear save DC to key off CON as well, like your normal breath weapon.


I have a similar build for a Emerald Gem Dragonborn Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Rune Knight X grappler, although that one doesn't utilize Dragon Fear. But it eventually (level 8-9ish) gets you resistance to all damage while raging, between your racial Psychic resistance and Bear Totem's Rage resistances. Plus a bit of added Rage damage. That one's limited to Medium Armor, though... So you have to sacrifice CHA and Dragon Fear in favor of pumping DEX. It looks like:

Emerald Gem Dragonborn Barbarian 1 -> Rune Knight 5 or 6 -> Bear Totem Barbarian 3 -> Rune Knight X
STR 15+1
DEX 14
CON 13+2
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 9
Skill Expert (Athletics Expertise, +1 CON) at 4, Resilient WIS (14 WIS) at 6, +2 STR at 8 and 12.
Unarmed Fighting Style.

Also works with the new MOTM Gith races to "resist all the things", but you're giving up the breath weapon and 1 minute/day flight in favor of a little spellcasting (not as useful on a Raging Barbarian) and either an extra skill proficiency or Advantage against charm/fear effects. Not worth the tradeoff, IMO.

[Guy Lombard-O]

That does sound like a fun build, if a bit MAD. What are your stats like?

Seems like you'd need a high STR for attack/grappling, high CON for Runes and normal Dragon Breath save DCs, and a high CHA for Dragon Fear save DC, plus a moderate WIS for important saves, and ideally a decent DEX too (although that'd probably be a bridge too far)...

With point buy, you'd probably be looking at something like:
STR 14+2
DEX 9
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 14
Then Dragon Fear (15 CON or 17 STR) at Level 4, Skill Expert (Athletics Expertise, 16 CON or 18 STR) at Level 6, and Resilient WIS (14 WIS) at Level 8. Your various save CHA/CON-based save DCs won't be super optimized, but seems like it could be a fun build with several options to handle different scenarios.

It'd be more workable if your DM allows your Dragon Fear save DC to key off CON as well, like your normal breath weapon.

Well, it was a buffed point buy build, with an extra +1 to best stat. So started (after Tasha's free-floating racial bonuses) with 18-8-16-8-10-14.
4th level was Skill Expert/Athletics (+1 Str), 6th was Dragon Fear (+1 Str), and 8th was +2 Cha (thinking of multi-classing Sorc or Warlock after fighter 15). Currently at 10th for 20-8-16-8-10-16. Currently blessed with Adamantine Plate, a Luck Stone and a Ring of Spell Storing (for Longstrider & Haste, for high speed grapple/flying shenanigans, or sometimes Spirit Guardians).

He's a brute. And admittedly, a bit of a danger to the party unless Storm Rune is up (although there's still Uncommon Resistance Indominable), and I should probably pick up Res Wis at some point (although after a reflavored Spell Sniper/Eldritch Blast at ASI 12 for a Lightning breath weapon, where all beam targets must be in a 240' by 5' line). I'm also trying to design a good feat (for 14? 16?) to put his tail to use in combat (a tail being something I talked DM into at level 10 as part of the body changes). It's sitting ignored in the Homebrew board right now.

I really wanted to do Unarmed FS. But I was trying to keep it all dragon, all the time. So I went with Blind Fighting.

I have a similar build for a Emerald Gem Dragonborn Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Rune Knight X grappler, although that one doesn't utilize Dragon Fear. But it eventually (level 8-9ish) gets you resistance to all damage while raging, between your racial Psychic resistance and Bear Totem's Rage resistances. Plus a bit of added Rage damage. That one's limited to Medium Armor, though... So you have to sacrifice CHA and Dragon Fear in favor of pumping DEX. It looks like:

Emerald Gem Dragonborn Barbarian 1 -> Rune Knight 5 or 6 -> Bear Totem Barbarian 3 -> Rune Knight X
STR 15+1
DEX 14
CON 13+2
INT 8
WIS 13
CHA 9
Skill Expert (Athletics Expertise, +1 CON) at 4, Resilient WIS (14 WIS) at 6, +2 STR at 8 and 12.
Unarmed Fighting Style.

Also works with the new MOTM Gith races to "resist all the things", but you're giving up the breath weapon and 1 minute/day flight in favor of a little spellcasting (not as useful on a Raging Barbarian) and either an extra skill proficiency or Advantage against charm/fear effects. Not worth the tradeoff, IMO.

That sounds equally awesome! Must admit, I do hate going last most of the time, and it's only through pure luck (and re-rolls) that he hasn't gotten out of pocket from bad Wis saves so far. I'd say your version is more balanced and well rounded.

Anywho, Dragon Fear is fun for creating a circle of semi-protection in the center of the battlefield.

[strangebloke]

That sounds equally awesome! Must admit, I do hate going last most of the time, and it's only through pure luck (and re-rolls) that he hasn't gotten out of pocket from bad Wis saves so far. I'd say your version is more balanced and well rounded.

Anywho, Dragon Fear is fun for creating a circle of semi-protection in the center of the battlefield.

30 foot radius is basically going to cover any indoor space yeah.

On the subject of going last... What I'm interested by is the idea of a dex-based BM metallicborn who uses Ambush to win initiative and then rushes in with a really aggressive Dragon fear, a metallic breath weapon, action surge, then maneuvers. You can do the same thing to an extent with a rune knight and superior technique as well - after all you only really need ambush to pull this off.

You can pull off a lot of controlling effects in the first round. If you action surge you can even repeat the use of dragon fear to catch people who succeeded on the save.

[RogueJK]

On the subject of going last... What I'm interested by is the idea of a dex-based BM metallicborn who uses Ambush to win initiative and then rushes in with a really aggressive Dragon fear, a metallic breath weapon, action surge, then maneuvers. You can do the same thing to an extent with a rune knight and superior technique as well - after all you only really need ambush to pull this off.

You can pull off a lot of controlling effects in the first round. If you action surge you can even repeat the use of dragon fear to catch people who succeeded on the save.

Sure, if you want to nova in one combat per day. Keep in mind, standard Breath Weapons are only usable Proficiency Bonus times per long rest, and it's just a static once per long rest for Metallic's additional Enervating/Repulsion Breath option.

So using Dragon Fear twice in one round sounds cool, but you can only do that once per day until Level 9, and then only twice per day until Level 17. And you can only do the specific combo of Fear + Metallic Breath once per day, regardless of level.

Whereas stuff like Action Surge, Runes, and Maneuver Dice are regained after a short rest, so you have more leeway to utilize them repeatedly during an adventuring day (especially maneuvers with your multiple dice).

[strangebloke]

Sure, if you want to nova in one combat per day. Keep in mind, standard Breath Weapons are only usable Proficiency Bonus times per long rest, and it's just a static once per long rest for Metallic's additional Enervating/Repulsion Breath option.

So using Dragon Fear twice in one round sounds cool, but you can only do that once per day until Level 9, and then only twice per day until Level 17. And you can only do the specific combo of Fear + Metallic Breath once per day, regardless of level.

Whereas stuff like Action Surge, Runes, and Maneuver Dice are regained after a short rest, so you have more leeway to utilize them repeatedly during an adventuring day (especially maneuvers with your multiple dice).

oh sure, I'm aware. Its still a nice trick to have up your sleeve once in a while. More, I just like the idea of spamming control resources as a fighter.

[Guy Lombard-O]

oh sure, I'm aware. Its still a nice trick to have up your sleeve once in a while. More, I just like the idea of spamming control resources as a fighter.

Yeah, that's sort of where I came at it from. First time I ever wanted to play a fighter, since it was about a lot more than "hit thing with stick" X infinity.

[strangebloke]

Yeah, that's sort of where I came at it from. First time I ever wanted to play a fighter, since it was about a lot more than "hit thing with stick" X infinity.

Honestly between nu dragonborn, the Krynn maneuver salad feats, and rune knight/psi warrior you could come up with something kind of nutty as far as martial options go.