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2022-05-19, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Not sure of the rules here.
Can one animate a human body as a zombie even if there is already a ghost of that human?
If so, could that ghost possess that body as per malevolence?
What would happen then?
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2022-05-19, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing stopping a ghost's corpse from being animated as a zombie, and there's nothing stopping a ghost from possessing it's old body. At that point, you'd just apply the rules for all those things as normal. The ability still ends after 10 hours (or the ghost's HD in hours, whichever is longer), and the zombie still gets a will save, and is immune for 24 hours if it succeeds it's save.
Of course, as a DM, you can rule it however you wish, but RAW, that's how it would work.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2022-05-19, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- Perth, West Australia
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Multiverse of Madness is going to bring all these kinds of milkshakes to the yard I suspect...
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2022-05-20, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
A zombie is essentially just a rotten flesh golem, so yes you can animate that fine. Just like you can pick up or move a corpse, so too can magic! The ghost has nothing to do with the remains… hence it being a ghost. A zombi likewise has nothing to do with the mind/soul that once occupied it…
If ghosts can possess golems then yes… if they can’t posses non-living matter or because the controlling mechanism would override it then it can’t!Last edited by Max Caysey; 2022-05-20 at 12:25 AM.
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2022-05-20, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Yes, you can create a zombie or even other undead with the dead bodies of ghosts. The implications of a dread warrior (from Animate Dread Warrior spell) being created are interesting, because presumably the dread warrior has at least some memories of its life.
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2022-05-20, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
This makes me wonder...an intelligent magic item is treated as a creature.
Can a ghost possess an intelligent sword?My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2022-05-20, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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- France
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
From Magic Jar (on which the Malevolence ability of the ghost is based) :
Originally Posted by Magic jar
If we go by lore, I'm pretty sure the zombie doesn't "have" a soul, but is animated and powered by the trapped soul of who it initially was, as well an Negative Energy. This is why the spell component for Animate dead is a black onyx. That's a gem similar to a diamond, but opposite in color. It still recalls the soul from the afterlife, but uses it to power the corpse as a helpless bystander. This is why you can't resurrect someone who has been turned into an undead without first destroying the undead, even with True Resurrection, and most probably why Animate Dead is an [Evil] spell (well, that and the fact that it brings Negative Energy on the Material Plane to make the undead move). I'm really not sure you could animate even a zombie if the soul has already become a ghost. I guess you don't really need the right soul to animate the corpse. Now, of course, RAW doesn't bother itself with such considerations, and you could animate it just fine, but True Resurrection would work very weirdly in that case. Would you need both undead to be destroyed? Only the sentient one? Only the last one created? In my opinion, the most sensible interpretation is that "turned into an undead" in the true Resurrection spell means "turned into a sentient undead and retain its soul", while a zombie or a skeleton can be animated with any random soul from the afterlife and doesn't interfere with anything.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-05-20 at 03:23 AM.
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2022-05-20, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Tula, Russia
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2022-05-20, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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- France
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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2022-05-20, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Tula, Russia
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Because the spell's description says so
On the other hand, Bier of Resurrection (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook):
This large stone platform casts resurrection on any corpse laid upon it, but only if you also place a diamond worth at least 500 gp over the corpse's heart. The activation of the magic consumes the diamond.
The resurrection spell only works upon remains less than 90 years dead. The revived subject is restored to full hit points, vigor, and health. However, he loses a level - or 1 point of Constitution if he's at 1st level.
This effect even works on those killed by a death effect or who have become undead. It cannot, however, help someone dead of old age.
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2022-05-20, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2019
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
I wonder how important the "laid upon it" part is, because I really like the idea of creating a trap for invading vampires by leaving a bunch of diamonds lying around on some Totally Normal Stone Platform. (Okay, so the "over the heart" part might be tricky too. Maybe vampires like hugging their valuables?)
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2022-05-20, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Animate Dead only needs a body, no souls. And Resurrection works just fine on undead without having to destroy them. It just doesn't work on part of a corpse if the rest of that corpse is animated as an undead.
Originally Posted by undead traits
So you could definitely use Resurrection to destroy vampires (or more accurately turn them back into whatever they were before being turned) assuming you can find a way around the 10 minute casting time.
Where it gets interesting is when you apply that to a lich - it gets turned back into a living creature, so you should get around the issue of finding and destroying the phylactery.
Because living creatures don't have those.
Edit: Of course that all depends on the original soul being free and willing to return, which probably won't apply to liches at least.Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2022-05-20 at 07:18 AM.
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2022-05-20, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
I see it more as an activation of necrotic brain matter than the soul inhabiting the body of a dread warrior. Think about it. Someone is killed. His soul goes to his/her deity (or becomes a ghost). What is animated by a necromancer later is the carnel, necrotic flesh, not the soul - at least in the case of the dread warrior. As to wraiths and spectres, it's hard to say.
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2022-05-20, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Maybe slightly off topic, but somewhat relevant, the Reanimated Medium from Pathfinder 1e has this kind of flavor but more of the 'you are repossessing your spiritless body after a botched raise dead, or similar, effect'. I've been itching to play one of these.
Last edited by Eldonauran; 2022-05-20 at 02:27 PM.
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2022-05-21, 04:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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- France
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
That would contradict Magic Jar's text. Sentient undead do have souls, and I don't know which it would be except the one of the original owner, but traumatized and badly brought back, so it loses most of its intelligence. Wraiths and spectres simply are disembodied souls. I don't know, is there a mindless incorporeal undead? That would be weird.
Another possibility would be Libris Mortis's interpretation of an "animating spirit". When you cast an animating spell, you call for a spirit from other planes (not the original soul, mind you), that comes and animates the dead body.
Originally Posted by Libris MortisResurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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2022-05-21, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
It should be noted that there is at least one intelligent undead that has no soul on its own: the devourer.
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2022-05-21, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Tula, Russia
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Kir-lanan are have no souls. While it should, obviously, prevent them from becoming a Shadow (or other incorporeal undead) - nothing is said about impossibility to animate them as a Mummy (or any other intelligent non-incorporeal undead)
Another example is Shadow Sun Ninja Vampire: their soul is imprisoned within the Iron City of DisLast edited by ShurikVch; 2022-05-21 at 10:49 AM.
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2022-05-21, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
Or the anima that passes for a soul in the corporeal undead creature could be created wholesale by the magical effect of the necromancer's spells. Let me put it another way. Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin has died and gone to his deity. Months later a necromancer comes along and animates the body as an intelligent undead - lets say a ghast. Now there is an undead creature there, but is Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin's soul really in it? I don't think so. It probably has some of Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin's memories, thanks to its necrotic brain matter. So what is being targeted by magic jar? Who knows. Possibly, a necrotic soul is created as soon as there is a spark of intelligence. Perhaps the soul comes from spares available from the lower planes or the god of death. Perhaps the soul is a "shadow soul", a mere reflection of the original. Among many, many possibilities, the idea that the ghast's soul is that of Goody-Two-Shoes the Paladin seems the least likely.
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2022-05-21, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2021
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
The fact that a 3rd level spell could create a soul out of nothing seems even less likely. In that case‚ the "soul" in the ghast that Magic Jar can detect is just the animating spirit acting as the soul. As said earlier‚ the term "soul" in Magic Jar is almost synonymous with "life force".
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2022-05-21, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Tula, Russia
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Re: Could a ghost possess the zombie body that was its body when the ghost was alive?
One more proof Zombies don't contain their souls is the Putrefaction spell:
When the victim dies, his body immediately animates as a zombie under the control of the caster. Additionally, the victim's soul transforms into a ghost that cannot move more than 30 feet from the caster. This ghost gains all the powers as listed in the ghost's description in the Monster Manual, but the vile energies of the spell cause the ghost to become evil.
Create Lantern Archon (Champions of Valor) is a 3rd-level spell...